Politics - wait for it... wait for it... 2020 isn't over yet

[Malcador]

11 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Ok, so peaceful protesters are asking for the defunding of police because of their protections of  bad police (murderer). By that same logic they should disperse as their gatherings shield murderers, looters from being arrested. Semantics don't change the result.

Cop logic works the other way, sort of funny.

Someone got shot outside the White House by the SS, https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/secret-service-escorts-trump-briefing-room-amid-shooting/story?id=72293741

Edited August 10, 2020 by Malcador

[Orogun01]

8 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Cop logic works the other way, sort of funny.

Someone got shot outside the White House by the SS, https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/secret-service-escorts-trump-briefing-room-amid-shooting/story?id=72293741

"The suspect opened fired on a non-White House employee and a Uniformed Secret Service officer returned fire, according to the official"

Sorry, I don't get the meaning of your post. How is this related to my post?

[Ben No.4]

9 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

These headlines drive me nuts.

When you attempt to murder someone, you are no longer a protester. You are an attempted murderer. You have crossed a line and do not deserve any protection.

Just like when a police officer kneels on someone's neck for over 8 minutes and kill them, you are no longer a cop. You are a murderer and should be held fully accountable for that.

I’ve only skimmed through the thread here, but it seems to me this post can be considered less straight out pro police-state/anti-protesters than some others here. And still, I take mayor issue even with what is being stated here. 
 

“When you attempt to murder someone, you are no longer a protester. You are an attempted murderer. You have crossed a line and do not deserve any protection.“

We ought to consider what is being stated. Why does being an attempted murderer - more precisely: being charged with attempted murder - mean that one does not “deserve any protection”. There’s been various comparisons of the US and the PRC. One key difference, it seems to me, is that in the US, there are (at least in theory for all) laws and processes to protect precisely that person, the alleged attempted murderer. Rather than the police establishing guilt through establishing fact.

’Course that doesn’t really apply with such a trigger happy police force. It seems dubious what a presumption of innocence in court (as difficult as it is with the jury system) is worth when the police force don’t seem to act on it. 
 

But more generally, being accused of attempted murder is not a situation in which one seizes to “deserve any rights”. Quite the opposite, facing such a serious charge is a situation in which ones rights ought to be strengthened and their realisation ought to be ensured, be that through an unbiased judge and jury, through a capable defense, and whatever else deemed necessary to ensure that the accused can fully realise his right to a fair trial.

I understand the situation is heated and any political commentary is likely filled to the brim with emotion. But I also think it is very dangerous to be so ready to deny the most basic principles of the rule of law simply out of (understandable) outrage.

[ShadySands]

I think they're supposed to be two separate things. First line was in response and second line was about the WH shooting.

Of course, I could be wrong. It's got to happen eventually ...this hour

 

[Gorth]

50 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Ok, so peaceful protesters are asking for the defunding of police because of their protections of  bad police (murderer). By that same logic they should disperse as their gatherings shield murderers, looters from being arrested. Semantics don't change the result.

Hey, fair is fair. wanna bet many of those protesters have been defunded throughout their whole existence?

 

10 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Protesters assault and attempt to murder WI Police Officer

Who didn't see this coming?

Sorry, you almost had me there (until I saw it was Faux News)

I did click the link and read the article though. Please give my condolences to the poor back door that was shot (while he was in the front yard). He still leads the mob 3-0 in killings (edit: which may be perfectly justifiable, the story didn't tell).

 

[Malcador]

30 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

"The suspect opened fired on a non-White House employee and a Uniformed Secret Service officer returned fire, according to the official"

Sorry, I don't get the meaning of your post. How is this related to my post?

Read cop forums, they take umbrage to one bad cop tarring all, but do that for protestors. 

I didn't want to double post.

[Gorth]

The things that sometimes sees the light of day when laws change... I was actually reading up on the covid situation in Melbourne but thought this was interesting.

Interesting not just the number of allegations, those are hard to avoid if you serve long enough I suppose, but these guys are not exactly surviving on pennies.

The NYPD's 10 most unwanted:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/datablog/2020/aug/04/new-york-police-department-allegations-complaints

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Huh, median income in NYC is less than 60k last I looked. Seems kind of weird the lowest in that chart is over double that.

[Volourn]

"Who didn't see this coming? "

Gromnir. He still believes wholeheartedly that BLm and Antifa are pure and innocent. They are terrrorist groups that are responsible for more murders than the KKK since their creation. Espicially funny since Antifa (espciially) and BLM brag about using violence, assault, and rape to push their goals. So, SHOCKER, when they actually do. L0L

 

 

[Elerond]

Can it be described as attempted  murder of police officer if target is suspended from their post because they killed three people in under 5 years, as they aren't currently police officer and may or may not be related to job they had before they were forced to take break because they did such bad job.

Headline could as well be "Protesters assault and attempt to murder a murder" and it would be as accurate as current one.

[Volourn]

If your suspended you still have your job. Just like if youa re suspended from school you are still a student. You seem desperate to justify attempted murder.  I bet you would be dancing if he was murdered. This makes you a racist since you don't think a black life matters.

[Hurlshort]

3 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

Ok, so peaceful protesters are asking for the defunding of police because of their protections of  bad police (murderer). By that same logic they should disperse as their gatherings shield murderers, looters from being arrested. Semantics don't change the result.

I'd say it is fair to have a higher expectation of professional law enforcement personel than your average protester. 

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, Volourn said:

If your suspended you still have your job. Just like if youa re suspended from school you are still a student. You seem desperate to justify attempted murder.  I bet you would be dancing if he was murdered. This makes you a racist since you don't think a black life matters.

You don't have job when you have been suspended which is why they don't need to pay suspended people their salaries. 

Also if you are suspended from school you aren't student any more which is why they can deny your access to the campus. 

Suspension as punishment usually come with time limit and after which you get your status/job back.

[Volourn]

FAKE NEWS.

 

If you are suspended you still have the job/stilla  student. That is why it is suspension and not fired/expelled.

There is also why there is difference between suspension with pay and suspension without pay. Then there is termination/fired.

You still have the job.

But, whateves, you are just desperately tyrying to spin things to make it okay to committ attempted murder. Of cours,e the assumption being, if he was no longer a cop, it be okay to try to murder him. Like it is okay to murder any black person who isn't a cop.

And, any 'past crimes' doesn't excuse the attempted murder unless you think cops murdering people with criminal records is acceptable behavior. I surely don't. Why do you?

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Elerond said:

Can it be described as attempted  murder of police officer if target is suspended from their post because they killed three people in under 5 years, as they aren't currently police officer and may or may not be related to job they had before they were forced to take break because they did such bad job.

Headline could as well be "Protesters assault and attempt to murder a murder" and it would be as accurate as current one.

But Elerond lets not try to justify attempted murder on anyone ...it undermines the reasonable objective of where we are suppose to live in a society where we absolutely support the rule of law and order

Any attempt to attack and or use violence against police needs to be condemned in the same way we criticize  any police officer breaking the law, this is the same reason you may support BLM

[BruceVC]

4 hours ago, Elerond said:

You don't have job when you have been suspended which is why they don't need to pay suspended people their salaries. 

Also if you are suspended from school you aren't student any more which is why they can deny your access to the campus. 

Suspension as punishment usually come with time limit and after which you get your status/job back.

Unfortunately being suspended in SA public sector means you get full salary but you dont need to actually go to work. Its a disgrace as some people are suspended in SA for years 

The link below is relevant to police officers being suspended but it applies to other public sector people generally 

https://www.politicsweb.co.za/documents/suspension-with-full-pay-rule-worries-mthethwa

 

 

[Gromnir]

6 hours ago, Volourn said:

"Who didn't see this coming? "

Gromnir. He still believes wholeheartedly that BLm and Antifa are pure and innocent. They are terrrorist groups that are responsible for more murders than the KKK since their creation. Espicially funny since Antifa (espciially) and BLM brag about using violence, assault, and rape to push their goals. So, SHOCKER, when they actually do. L0L

 

 

please, explain further what is Gromnir's position on antifa and blm.  doesn't much sound like our position, but you have such a curiously perverse perspective that we cannot help but wonder what else you will have your imaginary Gromnir proclaim in our absence.

am also admitted curious 'bout how vol has come up with comparative murder rates for blm, antifa and the kkk-- am betting he ain't using fbi or any other reputable source.

there isn't any kinda blm or antifa leadership of which to speak, so am not sure how they manage to brag. some rando person vol believes is speaking for blm or antifa said something 'bout rape? am gonna need context. will no doubt be disappointed by vol response, but we nevertheless wait for the proofs o' antifa and blm, as organizations, bragging 'bout their use o' rape to advance their goals.

vol posts is a bit like watching the lighthouse

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_KOFbSnSbs

 

save that vol is playing all roles and everything is 'bout racism and nazis.

fascinating, if a bit disturbing.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[Elerond]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But Elerond lets not try to justify attempted murder on anyone ...it undermines the reasonable objective of where we are suppose to live in a society where we absolutely support the rule of law and order

Any attempt to attack and or use violence against police needs to be condemned in the same way we criticize  any police officer breaking the law, this is the same reason you may support BLM

So maybe they need to be suspended from their jobs, if they are found guilty of the charges against them 

EDIT: It seems that suspension isn't every where same level punishment as it here. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Elerond

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

12 hours ago, Elerond said:

Can it be described as attempted  murder of police officer if target is suspended from their post because they killed three people in under 5 years, as they aren't currently police officer and may or may not be related to job they had before they were forced to take break because they did such bad job.

Headline could as well be "Protesters assault and attempt to murder a murder" and it would be as accurate as current one.

Put the protesters on paid leave pending investigation.

[Guard Dog]

Trump Teases a Gettysburg Convention Speech.

NO! Goddamn it you DO NOT do this! First of all you don't use government assets and property to campaign for a job. It's against the law. Second of all, no here. Especially not here. It's not a stage, it's not a prop, doing this cheapens it. If he goes through with this all of the low things he's done this will be one of the lowest. And it will sully the office even more than he already has.  

[BruceVC]

41 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Trump Teases a Gettysburg Convention Speech.

NO! Goddamn it you DO NOT do this! First of all you don't use government assets and property to campaign for a job. It's against the law. Second of all, no here. Especially not here. It's not a stage, it's not a prop, doing this cheapens it. If he goes through with this all of the low things he's done this will be one of the lowest. And it will sully the office even more than he already has.  

This would be a very good time to send a letter of complaint to your local Republican representative, even if you dont always vote for them

[Gromnir]

39 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Trump Teases a Gettysburg Convention Speech.

NO! Goddamn it you DO NOT do this! First of all you don't use government assets and property to campaign for a job. It's against the law. Second of all, no here. Especially not here. It's not a stage, it's not a prop, doing this cheapens it. If he goes through with this all of the low things he's done this will be one of the lowest. And it will sully the office even more than he already has.  

here we are in the middle of a pandemic, with protesters creating chaos in democratic cities across the country and you want to dwell on politics and complain about the location of a speech. how petty.

*insert eye roll*

you can already hear the response from alt-right radio and fox news pundits, yes?

of course it is disrespectful for corporal bone spurs to use gettysburg as a prop. that is exact why he is doing it. do-nothing liberals and swamp creatures will complain and for at least a few hours coronavirus won't be the biggest story... will be just more proof the left isn't interested in fixing problems but is instead so anti-trump they can't let anything go.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Malcador]

Odd for him to go speak at the site of a Union victory.

[Gromnir]

21 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Odd for him to go speak at the site of a Union victory.

not odd at all. not odd for trump. 

don't be surprised if trump brings up his monuments nonsense and proclaims we must not ignore history and culture. trump wants to give his base a victory speech. for over 100 years southerners has been made to feel guilty 'bout their support o' the confederacy and slavery, but trump is gonna give 'em a victory speech 'bout pride and he is gonna do it at gettysburg.

when liberals attack trump for his acceptance speech, it will only further solidify trump's base.

HA! Good Fun!

ps this is calculated stephen miller and steve bannon bs at its worst, and it is gonna work.

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

37 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

 

ps this is calculated stephen miller and steve bannon bs at its worst, and it is gonna work.

 

HA! I always knew you were a closet cynic!

How could you not be?

"For in much wisdom is much grief, And he who increases knowledge increases sorrow."

Ecclesiastes 1:18 NKJV