Baldur's Gate 3 - the 2nd thread

[Chilloutman]

so looks like lvl cap is 10 ... which I like, because I like low lvl adventures.. but... how on earth should lvl 10 group fight mind flyers and dragons?

[majestic]

5 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

so looks like lvl cap is 10 ... which I like, because I like low lvl adventures.. but... how on earth should lvl 10 group fight mind flyers and dragons?

Like in Shadows of Amn I'd venture. There's both available to sub level 10 parties in BG2. It takes some doing but it's possible, using enough cheese.

[Skarpen]

45 minutes ago, majestic said:

Like in Shadows of Amn I'd venture. There's both available to sub level 10 parties in BG2. It takes some doing but it's possible, using enough cheese.

Yeah, but those are optional and you can take them on a much higher levels later. I guess the main antagonists will not be optional ☺. But I don't know what is the power curve in current D&D edition.

[kanisatha]

2 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

so looks like lvl cap is 10 ... which I like, because I like low lvl adventures.. but... how on earth should lvl 10 group fight mind flyers and dragons?

Not to mention how do you make truely multiclass characters with just 10 levels? Multiclassing will essentially be just about adding in one other class to your base class at most or else risk turning your character into something rather subpar.

[Wormerine]

11 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Not to mention how do you make truely multiclass characters with just 10 levels? Multiclassing will essentially be just about adding in one other class to your base class at most or else risk turning your character into something rather subpar.

Keep in mind Larian is likely to introduce modifications to system it is based on. How it plays out in Pen%Paper, won't necessary translate into BG3.

[xzar_monty]

Surely the lvl cap can't be 10 if they intend to use DD rules. That's my take on it.

[213374U]

2 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Not to mention how do you make truely multiclass characters with just 10 levels? Multiclassing will essentially be just about adding in one other class to your base class at most or else risk turning your character into something rather subpar.

 

On 6/17/2019 at 9:08 PM, kanisatha said:

What for you is romanticizing for me is realism and immersion. Yes, believe it or not, I like that part of a game where I am just a tiny little pawn. It *is* engaging and fun for me. This is why I prefer playing BG1 over BG2 every single time, and, I prefer the early parts of BG1 over the later parts, essentially beginning to lose interest once I get to the city of Baldur's Gate.

Uh, yeah. We get it. You hate that Larian is making this game, and no matter what is revealed about the game, they can't seem to do right by you.

Regardless, it's happening so...

Edited March 16, 2020 by 213374U

[213374U]

4 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Yeah, but those are optional and you can take them on a much higher levels later. I guess the main antagonists will not be optional ☺. But I don't know what is the power curve in current D&D edition.

Sarevok was level 15 in OG BG, where the level cap was 7-8. And his henchmen were level 10-12. Mind Flayers in 5e are CR 8 if memory serves. No idea about dragons.

[Azdeus]

5 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Not to mention how do you make truely multiclass characters with just 10 levels? Multiclassing will essentially be just about adding in one other class to your base class at most or else risk turning your character into something rather subpar.

You generally don't want to multiclass in 5e, there's not much to gain really. You either multiclass for flavour or because you found something cheesy, for example multiclassing your Paladin after level two or five into Sorcerer, Warlock or Bard (All Charisma based casters) to get more spellslots to use for Smite. Spell casters sacrificing a full level of spell slots for two levels of fighter for Action surge to be able to cast two Action spells in one turn. Cheese to put it simply.

  

2 hours ago, 213374U said:

Sarevok was level 15 in OG BG, where the level cap was 7-8. And his henchmen were level 10-12. Mind Flayers in 5e are CR 8 if memory serves. No idea about dragons.

Challenge Rating 7, I'm fairly certain. Dragons roam the breadth of the spectrum. Challenge rating doesn't really tell it all though, even though CR7 is meant to be a "medium" difficulty encounter, if you only have one enemy just pure Action Economy will make it a piece of cake, even with Legendary Actions/Lair actions.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I really hope that Larian will nail the replayability of the game. PoE1, had quite a bit of it, but PoE2 had not, and Pathfinder1, I only replayed ch 1 since I hated the entire Kingdom setup, so now I'm craving something that's fun to play over and over again in the CRPG department.

[Wormerine]

21 minutes ago, IndiraLightfoot said:

PoE1, had quite a bit of it, but PoE2 had not,

Curious. Could you expand a bit? Is it changes to combat system, or the structure of the world? In theory PoE2 offers more flexibilty with more interesting item system to shake things up.

[IndiraLightfoot]

For me, it was the structure of the world almost entirely - the travelling by ship, all the scattered islands, the tagging along those giant foot steps and getting interrupted by pantheon meetings. I couldn't bear more than one full run, and believe me I tried replaying it at least 5 times.

[Gromnir]

8 hours ago, IndiraLightfoot said:

For me, it was the structure of the world almost entirely - the travelling by ship, all the scattered islands, the tagging along those giant foot steps and getting interrupted by pantheon meetings. I couldn't bear more than one full run, and believe me I tried replaying it at least 5 times.

am not gonna reexamine our personal criticisms o' deadfire, particularly as we enjoyed deadfire in spite o' those numerous criticisms. however, we will make two quick (brevity is a perpetual elusive goal) observations:

1) deadfire "exploration" were a predictable developer reaction to poe fan criticism. 

am unable to recollect all the games wherein developers attempted to find some kinda perfect exploration balance. sad reality is developer attempts is near always met with a significant % fan disappointment. sequels is particular targets o' developer efforts to find the ideal mix o' dense locales and opportunities for exploration. sequels which alter the scheme as a response to fan feedback is illustrative as such makes clear just how doomed is developer improvement... and so were the case with deadfire.

poe, so we learned from poe feedback, didn't have enough exploration. 

*sigh*

deadfire actual did a goodly job with all those rando mini-encounters spread 'cross the world map. unlike bg1, which had us need overcome near identical encounters ad nauseum, deadfire developers took significant pains to vary those brief world map encounters. each poe2 world map encounter offered a slight different challenge-- quite an achievement considering just how many o' those there were. 'course chances are it didn't matter if challenges were different when players could find an ideal party scheme and set o' tactics with which to overcome 90% o' all encounters. still, deadfire did a much better job o' varying than bg1 and morrowind/oblivion and other sandboxie games which sell exploration.  

regardless o' efforts and achievements, deadfire exploration were, predictable, criticized by fans. at least as many people were bothered by deadfire solution to poe lack o' exploration. net gain o' 0... at best.

exploration is a no-win battle for developers and attempting to add encounters or features to inflate sense o' exploration is wasted blood sweat and tears. 

2) the gods

y'know, am believing this is gonna be a contrary opinion, but for us, full vo hurt the deadfire gawd stuff. yeah, the gawd confabs were exposition heavy and the info drops were frustrating for the seeming obvious questions you could not ask the gawds, but has been other games with as much ham-fisted narration which did not much bother us. 

vo made deadfire gawds worse. any other game we woulda' read through the gawd dialogues in seconds and gotten back to killing and 1007ting and faction choices and saving villages, or whatever. however, 'cause deadfire were full vo we actually listened to the gawd's smack. particular during our first run o' deadfire, a few o' the more tedious narrative interruptions no doubt felt much longer than they appeared to be when viewed from the pov o' the game script.

am knowing people were general much in favor o' the deadfire full vo even if they didn't approve o' the cost o' vo. contrary pov is deadfire didn't improve our game experience at all and may have hurt 'cause were a personal tendency to listen to the more tedious deadfire dialogue exchanges as 'posed to giving 'em a quick read and click inspection.

...

so, maybe not quick observations after all? nevertheless quick for Gromnir. baby steps.

HA! Good Fun!

ps we did like erik the viking approach to communion with the gods. skip to ~8:30.

apologies for poor quality, but is a not particular popular movie, and is a 1989 release, so not many clips from which to choose.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Gromnir

[kanisatha]

22 hours ago, 213374U said:

 

Uh, yeah. We get it. You hate that Larian is making this game, and no matter what is revealed about the game, they can't seem to do right by you.

Regardless, it's happening so...

What was the point of this post? And from a mod no less? Have the forum rules been changed to allow only posts praising BG3 to high heaven?

[kanisatha]

20 hours ago, Azdeus said:

You generally don't want to multiclass in 5e, there's not much to gain really. You either multiclass for flavour or because you found something cheesy, for example multiclassing your Paladin after level two or five into Sorcerer, Warlock or Bard (All Charisma based casters) to get more spellslots to use for Smite. Spell casters sacrificing a full level of spell slots for two levels of fighter for Action surge to be able to cast two Action spells in one turn. Cheese to put it simply.

Thanks for the insights. This generally fits in with my perception of 5e having been created with increased cheesiness in mind, which I suppose is what today's TT gamers are often looking for in their games. Too bad, though I can also appreciate some positives from 5e compared with 3.5e.

[213374U]

13 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

What was the point of this post? And from a mod no less? Have the forum rules been changed to allow only posts praising BG3 to high heaven?

Nah. Pointing out inconsistencies is a bit of a hobby of mine. The rules don't forbid it, in the same way they don't forbid being inconsistent, either.

Feel free to keep slamming whatever, of course. But people (even mods) have memories and all that.

[Azdeus]

Well, because of the proficiency system they have in place in lieu of things like Base Attack Bonus, up until level 5 an Eldritch knight(Fighter) is as good as a mage (If he's proficient in his melee weapon) in a swordfight, the Eldritch Knight can summon two different "bonded" weapons from thin air, and that's pretty cool I suppose. At level 5 the fighter gets two attacks, and at level 11 three and 4 at level 17, which gives him an edge. Heh. Hehehe...

18 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Thanks for the insights. This generally fits in with my perception of 5e having been created with increased cheesiness in mind, which I suppose is what today's TT gamers are often looking for in their games. Too bad, though I can also appreciate some positives from 5e compared with 3.5e.

A popular "mix" is a Hexblade Warlock that can make weapon attacks with his Cha bonus(And later add Charisma bonus to damage) and two levels of paladin. Warlocks get their (Very limited number of, but full caster level)spellslots back after a short 1 hour rest and slots aren't exclusive to your class, meaning you can use your warlock spell slots for your low level paladin spells. And at level 2 paladins get an ability called Divine Smite, which let's them do 1d8+slot level extra Radiant (Very rarely do monsters have resistance against this) damage. Normally paladins get 5slot spells at level 17, warlocks get them at level 9...

 

[xzar_monty]

31 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

What was the point of this post? And from a mod no less? Have the forum rules been changed to allow only posts praising BG3 to high heaven?

Yo. It is not logical or reasonable in any sense of either term to think that the only two alternatives are hating something and praising it to high heaven. Surely this is obvious. Right?

[213374U]

8 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

Warlocks get their (Very limited number of, but full caster level)spellslots back after a short 1 hour rest and slots aren't exclusive to your class, meaning you can use your warlock spell slots for your low level paladin spells. And at level 2 paladins get an ability called Divine Smite, which let's them do 1d8+slot level extra Radiant (Very rarely do monsters have resistance against this) damage. Normally paladins get 5slot spells at level 17, warlocks get them at level 9...

I remember reading about this in the AMA. Short rests are apparently abstracted and unless specified otherwise, every time a (combat) encounter ends, the benefits of a short rest are applied.

Clerics, wizards, druids and other long rest classes need to head back to camp for the night to get their spells back.

I haven't played 5e, but just from that I'm getting strong Warlock Master Race vibes...

[Azdeus]

21 minutes ago, 213374U said:

I remember reading about this in the AMA. Short rests are apparently abstracted and unless specified otherwise, every time a (combat) encounter ends, the benefits of a short rest are applied.

Clerics, wizards, druids and other long rest classes need to head back to camp for the night to get their spells back.

I haven't played 5e, but just from that I'm getting strong Warlock Master Race vibes...

I don't remember reading that short rests are applied after every encounter, from what I remember you have to make a dedicated "short" pause to actually rest undisturbed for a while. There are some more hardcore people that run days as short rests, and weeks as long rest, but the Challenge Rating system isn't tuned for that at all. Suddenly all guidelines in the Dungeon Masters Guide get's thrown out the window, but that said I do like the idea.

Oh, you can break the game something insane with Warlocks. Google Coffeelocks or Cocaine-locks... Granted, they take a bit of effort to get going and your DM might come down hard on you if you do that, but theoretically they can have an unlimited number of spells given time. If i remember correctly, the gist of it is you take a multiclass level Sorcerer, they can convert spellslots into Sorcery Points and sorcerypoints into spellslots. There's actually no Rule as written that you have an actual limit to the spellslots, just how many you get per day, so you convert your warlock spell slots to sorcery points, and your spell points into Sorcerer slots and repeat. You would have to avoid long rests though as they ruin everything, which can be fixed with a quick snort of 100gp worth of diamond dust each day to cast restoration on yourself as a Divine Sorcerer or Celestial Warlock to cure the exhaustion... Hence Cocaine-lock.

The one downside to warlocks are the few spellslots that you do get, max 4 spells in the end, and generally speaking locks don't get free 6+ level slots the same way, they're called Mystic Arcanums and are limited to once per long rest (Thankfully!). A level 9 Warlock has two 5 slot spells per short rest, but depending on playstyle/campaign that can become a ludicrous amount.

Generally speaking though Wizards and Clerics reign as usual, without twisting the rules.

I hate 5e. Both as a gamemaster and player..

[IndiraLightfoot]

2 hours ago, Azdeus said:

I hate 5e. Both as a gamemaster and player..

You have already taught me a lot about D&D 5th Ed, but can you perhaps list your worst disappointments, like a few condensed points, if you feel like it and have the time. Thx for your posts!

[213374U]

3 hours ago, Azdeus said:

I don't remember reading that short rests are applied after every encounter, from what I remember you have to make a dedicated "short" pause to actually rest undisturbed for a while.

Here it is.

I'd like to think that rule won't apply to dungeons, dragon lairs etc. but we'll have to wait and see.

Honestly, I'm really not a fan of spells per day or anything that breaks the flow of play and forces you to run back to camp to click the power nap button. It works great in tabletop where there's a DM stopping you from resting every other fight, and the tempo is completely different. In CRPGs, it encourages gaming the system and taking constant breaks, and I've really grown to hate when that's the optimal way to play a game.

[Azdeus]

1 hour ago, IndiraLightfoot said:

You have already taught me a lot about D&D 5th Ed, but can you perhaps list your worst disappointments, like a few condensed points, if you feel like it and have the time. Thx for your posts!

I'll see if I get a chance at work tomorrow, I usually have a lot of dead time to fill, but it might be fubar because of the Malware currently floating about

[kanisatha]

5 hours ago, 213374U said:

Nah. Pointing out inconsistencies is a bit of a hobby of mine. The rules don't forbid it, in the same way they don't forbid being inconsistent, either.

Feel free to keep slamming whatever, of course. But people (even mods) have memories and all that.

Liking the feeling of starting out at low level v. questioning how multiclassing will work with just ten levels to draw upon: two completely different and completely unrelated things. But, whatever.

[213374U]

4 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Liking the feeling of starting out at low level v. questioning how multiclassing will work with just ten levels to draw upon: two completely different and completely unrelated things. But, whatever.

It's not just starting out at low level. The whole BG1 experience is about playing low level D&D -and only low levels because of the 161k XP cap- which judging by the post I quoted, is something you enjoy specifically. The other, more recent post, seemed to take issue with the fact that level cap is ten, and not just because it may interfere with multiclassing, as you said "not to mention", when quoting someone else who was pointing out another perceived issue caused by the cap.

Seemed to me like a clear contradiction, but I am perfectly happy to apologize if I have misunderstood what you meant.

No one quite knows how BG3 multiclassing will work yet, but it's not a stretch to assume it'll work at least as well as in BG1 where dual classing was either not very useful if you did it too early, or actively counterproductive if you did it too late because you wouldn't gain enough XP for your original class to be reactivated. Multiclassing on the other hand was fantastic because you had two classes at almost the same level you would be if you had gone single class, with no real drawbacks (muh balance!). Then came BG2 with its completely different XP curve where you found that your multiclass cleric/mage fully deserved every bit of derision that Edwin directed your way.

Edited March 18, 2020 by 213374U