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Military Thread: Humanity Hanging from a Cross of Iron


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Couple more Turkish soldiers killed in Idlib, seems like they* had the bright idea to try shooting down a(nother) Russian Su-24 with a manpad during an assault on a small town and got bombed for their trouble. While Turkish sources are officially saying it was the Syrians doing the bombing and that they killed another 50 (mythical) Syrian soldiers in response it was definitely Russia. The assault itself was probably testing whether Russia would pack up and run in response to threats like the US did last year or respond and risk killing Turkish soldiers, if so they got their answer. Cue Turkey Erdogan really going all friendship ended with Russia, now US is (again) new best friend and asking for patriots, US air patrols and a mug of cocoa, pat on the head and being told everything will be OK.

*they in the general sense, the dead were supposedly tank crew so were unlikely to be those firing the Igla/ Stinger.

Edited by Zoraptor
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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/02/fighting-rages-northwest-syria-turkish-troops-killed-200220131908647.html

 

tl;dr; version, Turkish artillery started the fighting, paving the way for a rebel assault that broke through the Syrian lines in two places, Russian airplanes and Syrian army struck back.

 

"The UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights war monitor said at least 11 pro-government fighters and 14 on the pro-Turkey side were killed along with the two Turkish troops."

 

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Unfortunately AlJ isn't a great source- the Turkish military base there was the only thing stopping Mr Bone Saw from literally invading Qatar so their media is (pretty understandably) very strongly pro Turkey. AlJ TV was still claiming that the attack got through to Saraqib a few hours ago when in reality it seems to have got half way into Nayrab, a small town on the front line kilometers away.

Rebel attacks very often achieve 'break throughs' of some sort as the Syrian/ Russian doctrine is designed around not fighting hard for front line positions- due mostly to the prevalence of suicide vehicle based IEDs and their huge advantage in artillery. So they will generally withdraw to a prepared secondary line, the SVBIEDs explode at the now empty old front line or are destroyed when they have to slow down to negotiate corners or berms, any APCs or pickups being used to ferry up rebel troops get hit by artillery/ ATGMs/ aircraft and any who make it into their offensive objective get hit by artillery and counter attacked from the secondary defensive positions. The rebels would very often take a decent theoretical amount of land in attacks, but last time they held any new areas for more than a few weeks was, literally, early 2016. Last 4 years they've always ended up losing more than they took even when their offensives seem to be an initial success.

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I hope the US makes it very clear to the sultan of Turkey that neither the US nor NATO will be bailing his sorry ass out in Syria and that he is on his own there. I am very strongly pro-Kurdish and am happy to see the Turks getting their due for what they've done to the Kurds.

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At least 22 Turkish soldiers killed after some bright spark decided to try shooting down a Russian plane with a Stinger again. The 22 is a confirmed official figure, apparently the HQ for Turkey's whole Idlib operation may have been hit with up to 100 total casualties.

It also looks like Turkey may be trying to leverage an Article 5 response from NATO- which should not apply as Article 5 is for mutual self defence, and cannot be used if you're invading someone else. While not absolutely confirmed it's been reported by both Reuters and Al Jazeera that Turkey will allow all refugees to transit Turkey again into Europe in the hope of forcing the hand of Euro/ NATO countries- especially Greece- to support them.

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On 2/27/2020 at 4:56 PM, Zoraptor said:

It also looks like Turkey may be trying to leverage an Article 5 response from NATO- which should not apply as Article 5 is for mutual self defence, and cannot be used if you're invading someone else. While not absolutely confirmed it's been reported by both Reuters and Al Jazeera that Turkey will allow all refugees to transit Turkey again into Europe in the hope of forcing the hand of Euro/ NATO countries- especially Greece- to support them.

Haha. Yes I saw this (NATO and Article 5). My students and I discussed it in my International Security class this afternoon. :)

And yes apparently a group of refugees stormed the Greek border.

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Interesting analysis on the expansion of unmanned warfare assets in the US arsenal: https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2020/02/29/unmanning_a_twenty-second_century_navy_115077.html

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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An article claiming the Douglas A26 Invader was the best warplane ever made. https://www.realclearhistory.com/articles/2020/03/05/greatest_warplane_ever_485991.html

Not sure I agree with that list. IMO the top dog is the F-22 Raptor. Certainly the most maneuverable airframe ever designed. 

IMO the best ground support plane was the Sukhoi SU-57 for jet engines. The P-51 Musting for radial engines

Best air to air is the F-22 and a tossup between the Mitsubishi Zero and F4U Corsair

Best heavy lift is the C130 no doubt. 

The coolest is the Fokker Tri-Plane of Manfred von Ricktofen fame. 

Edited by Guard Dog
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"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

The Warthog would like to have a word with you.

SU-57 is faster with a bigger payload.

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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You've either got the wrong plane or the wrong definition of ground attack*. Su57 is the Russian F22 equivalent. And while P51 could be used in ground attack it was far more useful as a long range escort, and other planes were better at the task (eg off the top of my head, Typhoons for UK. Thunderbolts on the US side. And the Sturmovik for the Russians)

I'd have difficulty putting the Warthog first though as it's never operated in genuinely contested airspace. The Stuka too looked great when it was in uncontested skies.

*Though I really don't like wikipedias list, way too many listed that can be used but really aren't intended to be used as such.

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Coolest by a country mile was the Su-47, especially with the prototype's colour scheme. Backwings just look awesome even if they aren't really practical.

2 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Mosquito for ground attack.

There's a fairly well known plane rebuilder at the nearest aerodrome to where I live and they did mock attack runs on me during flight testing for one of their Mosquito rebuilds (I was spraying gorse and they obviously decided a red ute parked at the top of a hill made an obvious and safe target). Pretty memorable experience, but I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end if it were for real.

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Gripen all the way

Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

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1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

Coolest by a country mile was the Su-47, especially with the prototype's colour scheme. Backwings just look awesome even if they aren't really practical.

There's a fairly well known plane rebuilder at the nearest aerodrome to where I live and they did mock attack runs on me during flight testing for one of their Mosquito rebuilds (I was spraying gorse and they obviously decided a red ute parked at the top of a hill made an obvious and safe target). Pretty memorable experience, but I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end if it were for real.

Sadly the closest I've ever come to the old classic warbirds is through my big hobby as a kid making model airplanes. I've seen all US jets at pretty close quarters, including even the B-1 and the F-22. But not any of the props. Next time I'm in England visiting my brother I need to have him take me to one of the old airfields. I sooooo badly want to see a real spitfire up close, maybe even climb into the ****pit. I love the spitfire.

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Complete reverse for me, I've seen heaps of classics from close up- including some near uniques like the Polikarpov- but basically no modern jets. Modern warplanes don't really make it out here, but I can literally go down to Ardmore and watch Spitfires/ Mustangs or Sopwith Camel (replicas) take off while having a coffee at the cafe (they do paid flights on the classic planes so you see them pretty frequently, bit pricey but something I will get around to doing, once I win the Lottery). I was also lucky enough to be on the Isle of Wight during the 60th anniversary of D-Day, and they had a heap of fly overs.

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On 3/7/2020 at 1:09 PM, kanisatha said:

 my big hobby as a kid making model airplanes.

Sounds familiar. Before there was such a thing as home computers, much less internet, it was company names like Airfix, Revell, Matchbox and similar that had my interests 😎

 

Acrylic paints and some brain matter dissolving glue was always on my little work desk in my room. Had airplanes hanging from the ceiling and the shelves lined with everything from WW I tanks and battle ships to models of famous historic sailing ships.

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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2 hours ago, Gorth said:

ounds familiar. Before there was such a thing as home computers, much less internet

So, Gorth's skull avatar is actually a photo of himself.

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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The US Army is offering to pay off student loans for officer/recruits who enlist for infantry. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/03/12/army-offers-repay-soldiers-college-loans-if-they-go-infantry.html

 

The US Marine Corps is getting leaner... and meaner: https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2020/03/12/marine-corps-has-to-get-smaller-to-get-better-commandant-says/

I was a little surprised to hear the Commandant describe 186k Marines as too big. I left the service in 1993 and it was around 240k IIRC. It was a very  different Corps then. We were still armed, organized, and training for a potential WWIII. Every exercise we did was large unit tactics. Platoon and Company sized actions are the norm now. Back then the thinking was "what good can one company do against an entire Russian Motorized Rifle Regiment"?

You have to change with the times. A slide rule can still be used to help with your math homework, but it ain't the best tool any more. 

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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