Politics First Contact

[213374U]

5 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Socialism appeals to envy. 

Capitalism appeals to greed.

Two can play that game.

[Guard Dog]

Just now, 213374U said:

Capitalism appeals to greed.

Two can play that game.

Greed is good. It inspires you to achieve more. It drives the enrichment of the self. Envy breeds discontentment and resentment. It does not make the person who feels it want to improve their lot. Instead it promotes theft. It drives the desire to tear others down rather than help themselves up.  

[ShadySands]

Can't they appeal to both greed and envy? I'm thinking of something like keeping up with the Joneses 

[Gfted1]

I just want my bag too. Yang, Yang, Yang!

[Malcador]

10 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Greed is good. It inspires you to achieve more. It drives the enrichment of the self. Envy breeds discontentment and resentment. It does not make the person who feels it want to improve their lot. Instead it promotes theft. It drives the desire to tear others down rather than help themselves up.  

Theft is also promoted by greed, as well as tearing down others.  Didn't you see Scarface ?

[Guard Dog]

Greed drives you to get things you want and don't have (or have enough of). Envy drives you to want what someone else has. If you want to take things from someone else it's not greed that drives you, it's envy. Without envy socialism is DOA. Greed might lead you to disregard your fellow humans but envy leads to antipathy for them because your wants are satisfied at their expense. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Guard Dog

[BruceVC]

21 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Capitalism appeals to greed.

Two can play that game.

2133 to quote the erudite Jordan Peterson,  " Capitalism can lead to both wealth creation and increase inequality but communism\socialism leads to just one thing.....inequality " 

You know its true, history doesnt lie 

[Malcador]

10 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Greed drives you to get things you want and don't have (or have enough of). Envy drives you to want what someone else has. If you want to take things from someone else it's not greed that drives you, it's envy. Without envy socialism is DOA. Greed might lead you to disregard your fellow humans but envy leads to antipathy for them because your wants are satisfied at their expense. 

Seems like six of one, half dozen of the other here.  They're both cardinal sins, after all. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Malcador

[Guard Dog]

Just now, Malcador said:

Seems like six of one, half dozen of the other here.  They're both cardinal sins for a reason.

Disagree completely. Capitalism is "I want more". Socialism is "I want them to have less". Sanders and Warren are not talking about making the middle class rich. They are talking about making the rich middle class. It's not about building anyone up. Only tearing some people down.

[Malcador]

8 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Disagree completely. Capitalism is "I want more". Socialism is "I want them to have less". Sanders and Warren are not talking about making the middle class rich. They are talking about making the rich middle class. It's not about building anyone up. Only tearing some people down.

Well wouldn't say capitalism is founded on greed or socialism on envy in an ideal sense.  But you're both right in what they appeal to.  Just was trying to say that greed is not a virtue (I can attest by the various relatives I long to toss into a ditch someday) any more than being envious is.  Both end up being an impetus to **** over others.

If Gekko had said 'ambition', he'd be more accurate.  But then he wouldn't be Gekko, I guess.

[ShadySands]

I want an economy built on sloth or wrath or both

[Malcador]

3 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I want an economy built on sloth or wrath or both

Economy based on lust would be better.  Except for rampant STIs.

[Elerond]

14 hours ago, Skarpen said:

And which one of Scandinavian countries have government owning the means of production and central planning economy?

In Finland, Sweden and Norway government owns quite lot of the means of production and have centralish planning economy

 

Quote

Greed drives you to get things you want and don't have (or have enough of). Envy drives you to want what someone else has. If you want to take things from someone else it's not greed that drives you, it's envy. Without envy socialism is DOA. Greed might lead you to disregard your fellow humans but envy leads to antipathy for them because your wants are satisfied at their expense. 

Greed also drives you to want what someone else has, because greedy enough people want to own what other owns. And envy also can drive people try to make better of themselves so that they can feel that they are better than people around them.

Quote

Disagree completely. Capitalism is "I want more". Socialism is "I want them to have less". Sanders and Warren are not talking about making the middle class rich. They are talking about making the rich middle class. It's not about building anyone up. Only tearing some people down.

You could say that capitalism is "I first then others" and socialism is "community first then me". So I would say that "I want them to have less" is quite misleading when it comes to socialism, because it also is based to idea that people should have more, difference is more in who should be primary gainer of the wealth in the system. 

But as we know either of these ideologies don't matter when this is the reality 

https://www.sciencealert.com/a-handful-of-super-corporations-controls-the-fate-of-the-world-scientists-warn

 

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Elerond

[Skarpen]

16 minutes ago, Elerond said:

In Finland, Sweden and Norway government owns quite lot of the means of production and have centralish planning economy

Lol. Either you don't know what you talking about or trying to bluff.

[ShadySands]

30 minutes ago, Elerond said:

In Finland, Sweden and Norway government owns quite lot of the means of production and have centralish planning economy

That's not how this works. We only deal in absolutes when it comes to capitalism/socialism except for when it helps our arguments. 

 

[Gfted1]

It doesn't have to be that way. The Freedom Dividend will be paid for by a 10% VAT and consolidating other welfare programs.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, ShadySands said:

Can't they appeal to both greed and envy? I'm thinking of something like keeping up with the Joneses 

Well historically socialist movements have strived for more money, less hours, more benefits, etc. like the early US labor movement significantly featuring anarchists, socialists, communists, and trade unionists. I'd say wanting more **** counts as greed.

Similarly in the US wage theft is around the same $ amount as all other property theft combined, and if the employer-employee relationship ain't capitalism then nothing is. You could further argue that the history of imperialism and colonialism entrenched in the development of capitalism are examples of theft of large amounts of land and resources to fuel a burgeoning industrialization. In any case it's evident that as capitalism actually exists, theft is a strategy that yields benefit so "envy" is as beneficial as greed.

Of course analyzing economic and political systems around "sins" is going to be extremely reductive and you could probably pack them all in any given thing. Like socialism is sloth because lazy proles don't want to work 40 hours a week or capitalism is wrath because it has a habit of launching coups when the market ain't free enough.

[Zoraptor]

Haha Hillary Clinton is such an irony free zone. Claim Russian interference in the UK election, while blatantly interfering herself in the same interview. Still hasn't accepted that the main reason Trump won stares her in the mirror every morning.

[213374U]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Greed is good. It inspires you to achieve more. It drives the enrichment of the self. Envy breeds discontentment and resentment. It does not make the person who feels it want to improve their lot. Instead it promotes theft. It drives the desire to tear others down rather than help themselves up.  

Yeah. That is why the wealthiest people in the world are also the hardest working. We all know that blacks working mines for 14 hours a day extracting coltan at gunpoint in some ****hole own 80% of the world's wealth, right? Oh, wait, no. It's actually worthless ****s that either inherited most of what they have, learned to game or outright cheat the system to **** everyone else over, or a combination of both.

But, I mean, you're literally going full Gordon Gekko here. So that's probably covered under some twisted version of social darwinism, too. ****, I don't even want to know.

And I was doing so well ignoring this thread...

Edited November 12, 2019 by 213374U
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Maedhros]

3 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Socialism appeals to envy. This person has more than I do and it's not fair! Waaaaaa. Of course it's all a sham anyway. Bernie and Warren can promise the moon but they will never be able to deliver. The AOCs of the world no withstanding Congress is not going to go along with anything so radical as what those clowns are proposing. So it's all just a show. 

It has to do with justice more than envy. People who work their asses off shouldn't struggle economically - yet many do. So yes, Waaaaa, it's not fair!

Most people can't seem to understand that democratic socialism isn't about leaving a capitalist system, or preventing people from getting rich. You want the best of both worlds.

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Maedhros

[Volourn]

'Socialism' is about slavery. It's about controlling what other people think, feel, and do. It's anti freedom. Anyone who is pro socialism is antif reedom. btw, This includes many on the 'right' who also want to control what people think, feel, and do. All are scum. 99..9% of people are anti freedom. PERIOD.

[smjjames]

8 minutes ago, Volourn said:

'Socialism' is about slavery. It's about controlling what other people think, feel, and do. It's anti freedom. Anyone who is pro socialism is antif reedom. btw, This includes many on the 'right' who also want to control what people think, feel, and do. All are scum. 99..9% of people are anti freedom. PERIOD.

Does that mean 99.9% people are socialists?

4 hours ago, ShadySands said:

Tulsi is one poll away from making the December debates 

 

These socialism arguments almost always end the same

A: we want this

B: no, that's socialism

A: but blank does it

B: well ackshually...

A: then let's have that

B: no, that's socialism

Such is the state of the word as it's used in politics these days, it gets used for nearly EVERYTHING, including stuff that are so obviously not socialist. As far as I'm concerned, it's been abused so much that it has no meaning to me, about the only meaning it has outside of the proper contexts is 'thing that I don't like and don't want to have a constructive conversation about it.' Particularily when it gets applied to policy.

[Maedhros]

As a word it is quite meaningless when people interpret it so differently yeah.

Socalism to me? Free healthcare and education should be a human right, and something we should aspire to have together. Why not make life easier for all of us if we can? If I were rich I'd gladly pay high taxes to help benefit a system like that, just like I do now with my average wage. If that's "socialism", then socialism sounds more "free" to me than a system that can potentially enslave and cripple you with debt for the rest of your life. I can't say I often feel envy, but rather a strong feeling of wanting everyone to have the same opportunities I've had.

Use the collective to make life better for the individual. Sacrifice some freedom (tax), to gain more freedom (free healthcare/education, long m/paternity leave, longer holidays, etc).

On a sidenote, I also think working hours in pretty much all jobs should decrease. FREEDOM!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

44 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

As a word it is quite meaningless when people interpret it so differently yeah.

Socalism to me? Free healthcare and education should be a human right, and something we should aspire to have together. Why not make life easier for all of us if we can? If I were rich I'd gladly pay high taxes to help benefit a system like that, just like I do now with my average wage. If that's "socialism", then socialism sounds more "free" to me than a system that can potentially enslave and cripple you with debt for the rest of your life. I can't say I often feel envy, but rather a strong feeling of wanting everyone to have the same opportunities I've had.

Use the collective to make life better for the individual. Sacrifice some freedom (tax), to gain more freedom (free healthcare/education, long m/paternity leave, longer holidays, etc).

On a sidenote, I also think working hours in pretty much all jobs should decrease. FREEDOM!

Excuse you pinko, FREEDOM is when the cops can throw you in jail for no reason and when the age of consent is lower than 16. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by KaineParker

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 hours ago, 213374U said:

Yeah. That is why the wealthiest people in the world are also the hardest working. We all know that blacks working mines for 14 hours a day extracting coltan at gunpoint in some ****hole own 80% of the world's wealth, right? Oh, wait, no. It's actually worthless ****s that either inherited most of what they have, learned to game or outright cheat the system to **** everyone else over, or a combination of both.

But, I mean, you're literally going full Gordon Gekko here. So that's probably covered under some twisted version of social darwinism, too. ****, I don't even want to know.

And I was doing so well ignoring this thread...

Those miners just need to grab their bootstraps and start a business. With a small loan of a million dollars they could become the African Jack Ma.