PS: Bastila's Dead

[AlanC9]

Here I am, wadding into a brand new adventure and the game feels the need to tell me, "By the way, your 'love interest' in the last game was executed for treason." Instead of wanting to continue with Hordes, I wanted to load up the Aurora Toolset so I could burst Lord Nasher's head open like a ripe casaba melon.

If you build that mod, it'll probably be a hit.

 

The whole Bastila question is just a subset of the biggest issue about KotOR 2 -- how do the devs intend to accomodate all the possible KotOR endings without making whatever happened in KotOR an exercise in futility?

 

I don't have a clue.

[Drakron]

I seem to recall reading in CGW or another magazine about KotOR2 that the Republic is still strong in the Core Worlds. That they've pulled back to reinforce there. Does this mean that the Jedi Order still exists there and that all the talk about the Sith taking over is only true for the Outer Rim Territories? (Which is very similar to KotOR1 to be honest)

Well I certainly hope so, having the Jedi Order retreating from the Rim worlds and concentrate into the Core worlds makes far more sense that the "the Jedi Order is disbanded" idiocy.

[GhostofAnakin]

Well I certainly hope so, having the Jedi Order retreating from the Rim worlds and concentrate into the Core worlds makes far more sense that the "the Jedi Order is disbanded" idiocy.

Speaking of the Jedi Council, wouldn't it still be alive and strong even after the events of KOTOR1? I mean, the Jedi Academy on Dantooine was a training academy, and those 4 Jedi Masters were the Academy's Council. The real Council was on Coruscant (even said so in one of the dialogue trees). So even with the destruction of Dantooine, there should have been 12 Jedi Masters (or however many they had back then, they had 12 in the movies)still alive and well.

[will_990]

I

[Pope]

I still have a feeling Bastila will be the end boss, at least if you chose the dark side ending for KotOR.

 

Why? Bastila was Revan's pupil. It is the way of the Sith that the pupil takes over, or dies trying.

[Darvin]

Yes and no. If you played male dark side and took Bastila up on her offer on the Rakatan temple then yes it would only be a matter of time until she displaced Revan and became the Dark Lady of the Sith.

 

But what if you didn't play the game that way?

 

I believe AlanC9 said it best when he called it an exercise in futility, because it is. There is no way to accommodate all the possible endings. Someone somewhere is going to be unhappy with how Bastila and Revan are handled regardless of how they are handled. It ended too many different ways and each person who played has their own perspective.

[Vyperhand]

Obsidian for the most part appears to be made of sensible people.

If that's the case then you can extrapolate the following:

1) They realize that some 80% or more of KOTOR players loved the romances.

 

2) That being true, those people must have some emotional investment in the chracters of the love interests, namely Bastila Shan and Carth Onasi. (Juhani was too buggy to count)

 

3) That being true, they would not intentionally make a decision GUARANTEED to alienate that LARGE MAJORITY of the original's fans.

 

4) That would destroy initial revenue output *and* word-of mouth sales, not to mention the members of the Bastila Lovers' Club and Onasi Order telling anyone they can get to listen to not support the sequel.

 

So in summation: by any logical summation, Bastila should have some option to NOT be dead during KOTOR II... At least I sure hope so. Any dev out there willing to throw us a bone? Akari?

[Enoch]

Obsidian for the most part appears to be made of sensible people.

If that's the case then you can extrapolate the following:

1) They realize that some 80% or more of KOTOR players loved the romances.

 

2) That being true, those people must have some emotional investment in the chracters of the love interests, namely Bastila Shan and Carth Onasi. (Juhani was too buggy to count)

 

3) That being true, they would not intentionally make a decision GUARANTEED to alienate that LARGE MAJORITY of the original's fans.

 

4) That would destroy initial revenue output *and* word-of mouth sales, not to mention the members of the Bastila Lovers' Club and Onasi Order telling anyone they can get to listen to not support the sequel.

 

So in summation: by any logical summation, Bastila should have some option to NOT be dead during KOTOR II... At least I sure hope so. Any dev out there willing to throw us a bone? Akari?

Or, alternatively, they'll reason that the people who fell in love with KotOR to the extent that they hang around internet message boards to talk about it are going to buy the game no matter what's in it. With that in mind, it should be evident that their goal should be more than simply creating a nostalgia kick for the fans of the original.

 

Anyhow, I think we're all selling Obs a bit short here. I don't want them importing too many major characters from KotOR because I think that they can do as good or better in creating their own characters. Bringing in used characters involves significant difficulties that would be better if avoided. Plus, I already know just about everything I want to about those characters. They're played out. I'd rather see some new faces than have TSL devolve into some kind of "Revan: This Is Your Life" parade of blasts from the past.

[Vyperhand]

I hear you... I'm not saying feature the old characters, but let's face it the biggest knock to KOTOR was the ending.

 

Obsidian has the unique opportunity to sort of fill that void with this intro to KOTOR II. Going from an unsatisfying ending to discovering a favorite character died "offscreen" as it were (or worse, fell again) is just an unnecessary risk to take with already loyal fans.

 

I agree given the timeframe that the KOTOR characters should be peripheral, but she can have lived and still not show up in the game at all without difficulty.

[Alyt]

Just watched the second developer interview on gamespot.com(yes, i know it's old now). Producer Mike Gallo from Lucasarts said that the conversations regarding the events of KotOR early in The Sith Lords will determine how TSL will unfold and what characters you will run into later in the game. Let's be presumptuous and view this as an indication that you will run into characters that may or may not have died in KotOR if you told the game that they survived. He also said that any encounters with KotOR characters would be cameos(apart from T3) so i think both sides of the discussion can rest easy.

 

It was a very reassuring interview in many ways. In addition to Gallo, it featured Chris Avellone, Feargus Urquhart and Chris Parker. I just can't wait for TSL, need to go into hibernation until february, any ideas on how?

 

The interview can be found on this page: http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/rpg/kotor2/in...tml?tag=mp_2to9

[GhostofAnakin]

Weird...I could have sworn I wrote a long post...but it seems to have disappeared.

 

Regardless, I hope your assumptions are correct about what he meant in the interview.

[nightcleaver]

Here's an idea...let's all Bastila lovers scream, cry, flail around and just generally throw a fit over the idea that she died in the end, no matter what you did at the end of the first game?

 

 

... and then put the idea to rest. The game's not out yet, it isn't a bad game. The game doesn't exist yet. The game will be out in several months. The dev's have plenty of time to take fan reactions into consideration. Considering how these dev's compose themselves on the boards, I doubt they'll do something that people are so vehemently against - but it's still possible. I don't think it's likely, maybe you do. Considering the ease of just putting mention of Bastila, or omitting her completely, I don't see why they would kill her. Remember that these people know the first game, they like the first game, so they probably have the same sort of respect for it that you do. Sure, developer's sometimes have trouble making plot/gameplay fit eachother, and make such compromises, but with all due respect, I haven't seen a single sign that these developer's are like that. They're intelligent, unusually creative people.

 

When pavlov's bell rings, supper for his dogs often followed after. Could the bell have rung otherwise? Yes, and the dog's wouldn't necessarily get their supper when expected.

Don't say that just because you hear the bell ring (you see bad signs) you'll get your supper (this game will be bad). However, if you see it cooking (the tidbit's that obsidian has given us through reviews and interviews) expect dinner to be made. Yes, maybe the owner will throw dinner away completely, but it's more dependable sign, anyway, than the bell.

[jaguars4ever]

  The dev's  have plenty of time to take fan reactions into consideration.

 

One can only hope :

 

ValhallaGamers: The Obsidian forums have been buzzing with activity since KOTOR2 was officially announced, how often do you get to read those boards? Next part of that would be given the sheer volume of posts, how many legitimate suggestions actually get taken under consideration and can you give me an example of a fan suggestion that was implemented into the game?

 

Feargus Urquhart: I get up there a few times week along with all the other message forums I read, however other than about 3am PST, there is always someone from Obsidian lurking up there. What has been a little tough is that we were pretty far along in development before the title was announced, so we haven

[severxsever]

What is this belief that all of a character's actions become moot if he or she is killed off? Death does not invalidate one's life. If anything, it, death, makes the events of one's life more precious.

[nightcleaver]

[Alyt]

What is this belief that all of a character's actions become moot if he or she is killed off? Death does not invalidate one's life. If anything, it, death, makes the events of one's life more precious.

 

Maybe we just want a happy ending for characters we liked?

 

There are so many depressing things in the real world, i like it when writers try to limit them a bit in fictional universes.

 

Whatever floats your boat, i guess.

[Adria Teksuni]

At first I was a believer in the fact that Bastila had to die in order to maintain the storyline, but here's a bit of what I posted elsewhere:

 

"Fans aside, if there's something I hate, it's inconsistency within a storyline. I just don't see how they can pull off a decent Juhani inclusion without giving me that horrible hitching sensation in my chest, that causes my nose to wrinkle up and various bad words to come out of my mouth.

 

As far as Juhani goes, the fact that she can die not only on Dantooine, but the Unknown World as well as the Unknown World just causes way too much opportunity for the whole storyline to unravel if they push to hard to keep her in there.

 

As far as Bastila goes, I've done a lot of thinking about that from the viewpoint of a writer rather than a game player, and I think I have to revise my opinion. There are several loopholes they can use to have her make an appearance in KoTOR 2, no matter what the outcome of the game in KoTOR. Some of them are the "we never saw the body" type things, but some of them aren't, and cliche or not, they are there, and quite feasible.

 

Same thing with Jolee and Carth."

[jedimaster1141]

hey jaquars4ever i get enough s*** in school about proper english i dont need that crap when i get home its a computer forum not a college paper all do what i want dumbass

[Zane0]

Some of them are the "we never saw the body" type things, but some of them aren't, and cliche or not, they are there, and quite feasible.

Yes, that's a point. If several characters came back that I as Revan had previously killed, I'd be more inclined to accept it instead of saying, "Bah, that's stupid."

 

Why? Force Sensitive individuals tend to be pretty good at beating the odds and cheating death somehow.

[severxsever]

Maybe we just want a happy ending for characters we liked?

 

There are so many depressing things in the real world, i like it when writers try to limit them a bit in fictional universes.

 

Whatever floats your boat, i guess.

If you simply want a happy ending, then I wasn't referring to you. However, happy endings and vindication of your role playing decisions are hardly phrases synonymous with each other.

[Adria Teksuni]

Agreed with both Zane and sever.

 

To me, the important thing, above all else, is preservation of the continuity. (And I'm a Highlander fan, go figure.)

 

It can be done, I can see it being done with everyone but Juhani, but with the being able to plug your own KoTOR ending into II, Juhani is feasible as well, it all depends on how much they can/will put into the game.

 

Even if you killed Bastila on the Temple or the Star Forge, those places are so inherently strong with the Force that it's credible that Bastila didn't die. After all, she managed to hold Revan together when he took a destroyer blast pretty much point blank, why not herself after a lightsaber and Force battle, to escape at a later time (i.e. at the destruction of the shield or immediately prior to the Star Forge's destruction.)

 

Also, there are other people running around during the game that we don't really encounter, who may have found her and kept her alive for whatever plot-ridden reason.

 

Overall, Bastila returning can be done, if they want it badly enough.

 

In addition, as far as happy endings, who says she's alive to help you out? YOU could be the one to finally kill Bastila Shan in KoTOR II.

[Vyperhand]

That would suck in a lot of ways, but I can (sadly) see it happening.

 

Kind of like I half expect Kreia to be one of the sith lords running around with you the whole time killing her rivals.

[GhostofAnakin]

In addition, as far as happy endings, who says she's alive to help you out? YOU could be the one to finally kill Bastila Shan in KoTOR II.

For me (I can't speak for anyone else), if Bastila WAS to die in KOTOR2, I'd rather it was by my (the PC) hand, rather than just some offscreen death.

 

I guess I'm not so opposed to her dying per se, but rather I just don't want it to be a "cheap" death, such as just some little comment by one of the NPCs you come across that tells you she died by trying to defeat Revan (all happening off-screen, between KOTOR1 and KOTOR2).

[Adria Teksuni]

Again, agreed. With the team that's working on it, I'm not too concerned, but if the KoTOR I deaths are cop outs, I will be highly disappointed.

 

By "cop outs" I mean some meaningless death that doesn't have anything to do with the overall story, a la Sarah Connor's death in T3.

[Muad'Dib]

Well for me, should Bastila even show up I would like not just to either have her live on, kill her by my hand, or have her killed by someone else but like all npc characters I'd like the option that the choices I make can develop any one of these possibilities. I like the idea that I can play through and have Bastila or any other character die because of the path I chose, but at the smae time in another time I play through the result is different because my decisions were different. Frankly I believe this would be the best alternative to Bastila and whoever else you want to include for I feel this diversity in how the game progresses and who lives and dies can be different playing through several times. Something like Juhani except the concept extended.