Deadfire Polishing Thread

[Ensign]

The level a power appears as has as much, if not more to do with pacing of character development and managing cognitive load for the player as it does the strength of the ability. I wouldn't see an issue with putting most of the generic passives in the first tier of abilities, for instance. Doing so would present players with an unnecessarily complex set of decisions almost immediately at level 2, however.

 

So I don't feel any pressure to make the PL5 passives stronger than PL2 passives. For universal passives in fact I feel the opposite - put the character defining stuff (like weapon styles) in the early tiers so players can build around them, and the niche and modest generic fillers (like the empower traits or uncanny luck) later in the trees as something to pick up once you have everything important.

 

Sure there would be value in taking some of those niche traits super early, or more realistically respeccing into them, using your earlier points once you have access to the high tier powers you want to use regularly. But really allowing a player to grab Uncanny Luck at level 2 is going to act as a trap more than anything.

[Boeroer]

It was hyperbole. But you see it rarely used in posted builds and it doesn't get talked about when discussing builds.

 

i have and do continue to take uncanny luck in varying builds.

Please accept my deepest condolences.

[Jayd]

I took Uncanny Luck with my Monk because he gets so many hits, and crits have so much value for Monks. On deciding to take the ability I looked at my total hits compared to total crits. This is rough because I already had the talent for a bit when I did this, but from what I could see, if I had had UL for the entire game, I would have had ~15% more crits (i.e. n = 5% of my total hits was roughly 17% of my total crits, rounded down because I had already had UL for a bit). There are all sorts of issues with those numbers. But, taking everything into account, I think that's worth a talent point. Remember that Monks turn crits into more hits and more crits. 

[thelee]

It was hyperbole. But you see it rarely used in posted builds and it doesn't get talked about when discussing builds.

 

i have and do continue to take uncanny luck in varying builds.

Please accept my deepest condolences.

 

 

i mean seriously though at high levels what are you going to use those points on? another ability you won't use due to action economy or resource constraints? e.g. for a rogue i wouldn't pick it over dirty fighting, but i'd definitely use it with dirty fighting.

[Taudis]

One thing worth noting too is that changing from 5% crit chance and 5% auto-miss chance removes the Nat 20/Nat 1 aspect of the talent. We'd lose the tiny D&D reference!

[Boeroer]

I would have had ~15% more crits (i.e. n = 5% of my total hits was roughly 17% of my total crits, rounded down because I had already had UL for a bit).

Math suggests that this is nigh impossible. First of all you are not converting all your attack rolls to crits but only hits. The higher the ACC the less hits, the more natural crits, the less overall conversion. Same when ACC is too low. That's 5% of an already smallish amount of attack rolls.

Secondly it doesn't stack additively. Since it's a PL5 ability it's likely that you already have some sort of crit conversion. Let's say you are a Shwashbucker looking for crits. You have Dirty Fighting and Disciplined Barrage and now want to add 5% with Uncanny Luck. This means your overall crit conversion raises from ~33% to ~36%. If we take the "normal" crit dmg modifier and pretend that 50% of your attack rolls are hits then this is an increase of a whopping additive 0.4%. Even in the best case, like +150% crit damage (Devoted + Streetfighter on the edge), only Uncannny Luck as conversion source and 100% hits (ridiculous, but just for the laugh of it) you will increase your dps by 7.5%. Besides the potential for removing underpenetration and the possibility of overpenetration. Still laughable. Do you guys really think this is worth a whole ability point even with the added resistance?

 

Then there is the duality of the ability. It caters either towards tanks (resistance) or dps characters (crit conversion). If you are desperately looking for ways to prevent damage then you usually don't need the crit conversion that much and vice versa. I would be ok with two abilites: one +10% crit conversion and another with 10% resistance. This should be balanced in regard to the actual Uncanny Luck, wouldn't it. 1 point for 10%. Funnily though: I presume most people would be more tempted to use one of them as they would be to pick Uncanny Luck. Why do you think is that?

 

And last but not least this ability is universal. You can't judge it after doing one test run with one special build. Even if you logged everthing properly and had verified data.

 

i mean seriously though at high levels what are you going to use those points on? another ability you won't use due to action economy or resource constraints? e.g. for a rogue i wouldn't pick it over dirty fighting, but i'd definitely use it with dirty fighting.

You know I don't want to sound spiky - but you seriously think that "there's nothing good to pick anyways so we might as well give the player something bad" is an argument against boosting Uncanny Luck a bit?

If you take it with Dirty Fighting you will increase your dps by a laughable margin (if dps is what you were looking for - if you take it for the resistance then ok). It is def. not worth an ability point if you're out for damage. Even Tough may have the potential to improve your dps more - because if you going down a bit later and landing a couple more hits before going down. Heck, Fast Runner will do more dps for you. 

 

 

We'd lose the tiny D&D reference!

Hehe, that's actually a point for my case.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Boeroer

[thelee]

You know I don't want to sound spiky - but you seriously think that "there's nothing good to pick anyways so we might as well give the player something bad" is an argument against boosting Uncanny Luck a bit?

If you take it with Dirty Fighting you will increase your dps by a laughable margin (if dps is what you were looking for - if you take it for the resistance then ok). It is def. not worth an ability point if you're out for damage. Even Tough may have the potential to improve your dps more - because if you going down a bit later and landing a couple more hits before going down. Heck, Fast Runner will do more dps for you.

That's not quite the argument that I'm making, though it is roughly similar, if a bit "spiky".

 

By the nature of the game, you are weighted towards passives the further along you go, simply because of action economy and resource constraints. If you pick every active ability or spell, congrats, you wasted like half your ability points on stuff you will almost never use.

 

Because of this, and because (relatively unconditional) damage boosts are generally rare, there's not actually a very high bar for a damage booster to be "relevant," which is why I don't really see the need to boost e.g. improved critical either. And again, the fact that this is a generic talent is relevant. A boost in Uncanny Luck essentially represents a global power creep and it ever-so-slightly crowds out class or subclass specific characteristics. One ability not much, but from a systematic perspective, it seems like you'd have to have an extremely good reason to permit any given creep, because then it makes it easier to justify the next creep, and then the next, until it's really optimal to mostly just be taking generic talents. Uncanny Luck is not an auto-pick, but at least in my calculation it's also not a trap pick, it's more of an accent or niche pick. As a general talent, I think that's OK. 

 

And I think you're being a little bit disingenuous with your arguments. Tough, for example, will literally accomplish nothing for dps if you don't need the extra health (though I have taken Tough for offense in streetfighter or other low health builds). Fast Runner may or may not provide a significant dps boost for you, but it depends on the general mobility of the character. And I mean, yes I would and have happily taken Fast Runner in various builds. And again, Uncanny Luck is both a defensive and offensive pick (stronger defensive) which gives it a special significance. I would consider Spell Resistance more of a niche pick than Uncanny Luck even from a defensive angle, simply because of how heavily the game favors offense.

Edited March 26, 2019 by thelee

[thelee]

I would be ok with two abilites: one +10% crit conversion and another with 10% resistance. This should be balanced in regard to the actual Uncanny Luck, wouldn't it. 1 point for 10%. Funnily though: I presume most people would be more tempted to use one of them as they would be to pick Uncanny Luck. Why do you think is that?

Because that would be unbalanced compared to existing talents and is not even comparable.

 

You've basically given everyone blanket copy of Dirty Fighting, and you've created an unconditional version of Spell Resistance.

 

Also any individual increasing resistance bonus is increasing returns, so 10% resistance is much better than simply 2x 5% resistance.

 

It's not a great argument you made here. Taken to an absurd level: one talent that increases damage by 50% and one talent that increase resistance by 50%, but each talent costs 5 ability points. I would still happily save up 5 ability points to take one or the other. Even if the "average" cost would be comparable to uncanny luck, you have to pay more attention than just to the average but also to the actual nature of the distribution: 50% is just extremely good unconditional damage bonus, unmatched anywhere else. This isn't exactly statistics 101, but it is simple statistics, maybe statistics 102. (There's also the joke about the statistician who drowned while trying to cross a river that was only on average 3 feet deep.)

Edited March 26, 2019 by thelee

[Phenomenum]

Interesting reading. But the main problem - and this is true for all of us - all arguments based entirely on one's own limited perspective and playstyle. But @Thelee, you pushing too hard - when i'm reading you, it seems like you consider your own opinion "the one and only' true correct, blaming another people for "not looking from perspective" and so on.

 

Maybe i'm too blunt (becose of my russian mentality), but you acting like you are smarter than other of us. I don't appreciate this approach. At the end, there's only small 0.0001% chance that Obsidian will implement at least some of our suggestions and we forced to mod what we can, on our own. And you know who will be do this? Max, i, maube someone else. For now, you just sittin' in your chair and givin' your smart and "objective" hints and tips left and right.

 

We have a poll. Each of us will vote, and based of it's results we (or Obsidian, god know) can make some changes.

 

- with regards.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

It's not a great argument you made here.

That may be. But I think we can agree that we can't always put out superreasonable arguments - as seen a few posts ago.

 

It's just an additional argument, even if it's a weak one. It sure is a reason for people to not take Uncanny Luck. Most party builds are not hybrid tank/dps builds that would be longing for both bonuses. Thus one half of the ability will feel like a waste. I would also be happy with two 8%/8% abilites instead of Uncanny Luck. 

 

Again: if an ability will not get picked by at least some people (who understand how it works) then that's a strong hint that it is not worth the ability point. I don't care that much if this gets increased to 8% or 10% or just left at 5% - but to me it's very obvious that 5% crit conversion at PL 5 is as good as nothing. I gave some numbers. If you'd had an ability that would give you an unconditional +0.4% or 0.5 or even 1% additive dmg bonus you would rub your eyes and ask yourself if the devs drank too much nail polish when designing that one.

 

And talking about power creep once it goes up from 5% to 8% or 10% - I mean come on. If you look at the avererage effect this has this is not even noticable. It's more like a cosmetic change.  I thought 8% was nice because it's less than Dirty Fighting but souds a bit better than 5% (because Exalted Focus does the same in a huge AoE at lower PLs).

Edited March 26, 2019 by Boeroer

[thelee]

Maybe i'm too blunt (becose of my russian mentality), but you acting like you are smarter than other of us. I don't appreciate this approach. At the end, there's only small 0.0001% chance that Obsidian will implement at least some of our suggestions and we forced to mod what we can, on our own. And you know who will be do this? Max, i, maube someone else. For now, you just sittin' in your chair and givin' your smart and "objective" hints and tips left and right.

 

Maybe it's cultural difference or whatnot, but I'm truly not trying to act like I'm smarter than anyone and if I seem condescending, sorry I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm putting forth my best arguments, and I expect others to do the same as well. In the process I learn from what other people have to say, and I hope that maybe others can learn from what i have to say as well. "Ideas are the sparks of two swords clashing" or whatnot. I don't pretend to have a "truly objective" perspective, and everything I write should be seen from the perspective that I've laid out what I thought was pretty clearly throughout the course of this polish thread (which is generally skeptical of anything outside pure bugfix mods--I'm mostly interested in better realizing the vanilla vision of what the game designers intended by focusing on developer/designer intent, rather than coming up with a bunch of "house rules"... I was that kind of DM).

 

And talking about power creep once it goes up from 5% to 8% or 10% - I mean come on. If you look at the avererage effect this has this is not even noticable. It's more like a cosmetic change.  I thought 8% was nice because it's less than Dirty Fighting but souds a bit better than 5% (because Exalted Focus does the same in a huge AoE at lower PLs).

 

Even minor cosmetic changes are not very justifiable to me personally, because they don't serve to me as a good case of distilling what that original design intention was, especially if it involves creep. (I've mentioned in other threads--not that I expect people to follow my posting history--that extended play experiences in games like e.g. Diablo 2/3 have really scarred me about out-of-control power levels [even if it occurs incrementally over many patches], enough to make me fairly absolutist about it.) So for me to get on board with increases in power level of anything I feel like it really has to be justified. A minor bump up to 8% hit-to-crit does not strike as a particularly justified increase.

 

edit - anyway, philosophizing aside,

 

If you'd had an ability that would give you an unconditional +0.4% or 0.5 or even 1% additive dmg bonus you would rub your eyes and ask yourself if the devs drank too much nail polish when designing that one.

<snip>

I thought 8% was nice because it's less than Dirty Fighting but souds a bit better than 5% (because Exalted Focus does the same in a huge AoE at lower PLs).

like I said, I think there's a *low* bar, not that there's *no* bar for an unconditional damage increase.

 

i also really want to re-emphasize the distinction between generic and class-specific abilities and how comparing them as a justification is not really as meaningful as one would think (relatedly it is my personal pet peeve when in any RPG people complain about a class not doing X as well as another class... well they shouldn't do X as well as the other class, it's not their role!).

 

to use the paladin comparison example, if there was a generic talent that gave you +1 AR, hopefully we could all agree that that would be potentially extremely good---but it's much worse than AL2 paladin aura that gives everyone +1 AR (not to mention potential health regen)! Or similarly a generic passive that gave you +5 accuracy. I'm pretty sure that would be an auto-pick for every single character I roll... but the AL2 zealous focus is just way better as well! so just because a paladin can do something better to more people at lower PLs is not a meaningful basis of comparison, because, well, this is what paladins are supposed to do better than anyone else.

 

edit 2 - this post was too rambly so i trimmed it down quite a bit.

Edited March 26, 2019 by thelee

[Waski]

My 5cents about crit, math, DPS and Uncanny Luck. There's plenty of weapons with desirable on crit effects and IMHO saying another 5% conversion it's just let's say +1% DPS across gameplay is a little bit of the mark. Not to mention whole AR/PEN situation. Sometimes on single class (martial) there is not much to pick and that's where I take Uncanny Luck.

[Boeroer]

But you don't consider that the crit conversion doesn't stack additively. If you get such a weapon/item your goal will be to stack ACC and conversions. Funnily though: the higher your ACC the less impact the conversion has. And the more conversions you stack the less impact every individual one has. And since Uncanny Luck is a very low conversion it has almost zero effect on such builds (which rely on crit effects). An unexperienced player might think that it does something for him - but in reality it does not. It is kind of a trap choice for a player who longs for crits. It is - especially with an item you describe and a build taylored to this - a very weak effect. Stuff like Disciplined Barrage is not only 5 times better. It's more than that - especially if you stack conversions because of the stacking mechanic. To achieve a 25% conversion (Disciplined Strikes) you would need to stack 6 Uncanny Lucks. To achieve the same with Uncanny Luck that you can achieve with Berserker Frenzy + Disciplined Strikes you'd need to pick 13(!) Uncanny Lucks. I'm not saying that it should be comparable - the one is passive and the others actives - I just want to show how badly it falls off once you start to cumulate ACC and conversions.

 

A bit better numbers on that PL5(!) ability would not hurt anybody and lift this talent from rubbish to maybe somewhat useful. At least it will have more appeal without being a complete trap for crit-gluttons.

 

I'm not set on this change. I can totally do without. I just want people to understand why it's not a good pick in most cases. It's just a bad ability.

Tough is also bad by the way. Why does the +2 health per level not get applied to the base health (as it sounds - and thus profits from CON bonus or malus) but simply adds a flat bonus like an amulet of health (even less at most times)?

 

Power creep can be avoided if we tune down the abilites which are too powerful. There are enough of that. See Resonant Touch, Blade Turning etc.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Boeroer

[zendingo]

As someone who plays these types of games primarily for the character builds and combat, I definitely think a top priority should be addressing the many useless or near useless talents that simply never get picked. Some could be moved to lower power levels where there is a scarcity of worthwhile choices. Others should be buffed, reworked, or just removed. Avoiding power creep is a just poor excuse to leave these issues unaddressed. Part of fine tuning the game can and should include addressing the overall balance of combat. It is better that there is a plausible reason for taking each ability in at least one build regardless of power creep because fine tuning should also include buffing enemies if needed (it's already needed without any other changes anyways).

 

End result should be difficult choices when making builds, plenty of abilities that might be valued in certain builds but not necessarily in others, and not 50% of abilities are auto-skipped in every build every time like it is now. Adjust enemy strength as needed afterwards.

[thelee]

But you don't consider that the crit conversion doesn't stack additively. If you get such a weapon/item you goal will be to stack ACC and conversions. Funnily though: the higher your ACC the less impact the conversion has. And the more conversions you stack the less impact every individual one has. And since Uncanny Luck is a very low conversion it has almost zero effect on such builds that rely on crit effects. An unexperiences player might feel that it doess something for him - but in reality it does not. It is - especially with an item you describe and a build taylored to this - a very weak effect. Stuff like Disciplined Barrage is not 5 times better. It's more than that - especially if you stack conversions because of the stacking mechanic. To achieve a 25% conversion (Disciplined Strikes) you would need to stack 6 Uncanny Lucks. To achieve the same with Uncanny Luck that you can achieve with Berserker Frenzy + Disciplined Strikes you'd need to pick 13(!) Uncanny Lucks.

i think that perspective lends better weight to being a "trap" pick, because i think as waski might have unintentionally demonstrated i don't think players are going to be completely aware that uncanny luck is not exactly great for a crit build. (i'm not even sure if it's obvious to players that the 5% "hit to crit" is not like a natural 20, it's much less then that). (edit - waski clarified) but even then in practice you would need a reeeeally high accuracy to not even see a minor benefit in increased crit rate for a crit build, at least from some numbers i just ran (curiously I don't think jayd is that far off, with my numbers even with an average net +30 accuracy against enemies on PotD you still get +14% more crits over the course of the game, though this heavily depends on how decent my estimated distribution of level-scaled enemies is and other assumptions i intially made in my script and am too tired to dig deep and resurface again for now).

 

A bit better numbers on that PL5(!) ability will not hurt anybody and lift this talent from rubbish to sometimes useful. At least it will have more appeal.

 

I'm not set on this change. I can ttally do without. I just want people to understand why it's bad. It's just bad.

you have numbers i have numbers and i think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. i would argue that some of your numbers are context-free. what does dirty fighting (talent I would venture many people would happily take) do? I estimate dirty fighting provides net ~4% increase (along with more crit procs if any). In reasonable cases uncanny luck provides ~2% damage increase (scaling down at high accuracies) and an unconditional 5% resistance (and resistances have increasing returns with a much smoother curve than deflection). Accounting for uncanny luck being a generic talent i think that it is not too far apart from balance to justify a bump up.

 

Tough is also bad by the way. Why does the +2 health per level not get applied to the base health (as it sounds - and thus profits from CON bonus or malus) but simply adds a flat bonus like an amulet of health (even less at most times)?

flat +2/health is basicaly like getting bonus CON, since health bonus from CON is additive. i always interpreted the talent as basically +2-5 CON depending on your class (or effectively letting you trade a future ability point for dumping more con at character creation). i don't see a point getting it for a barbarian, but for a glass cannon type or a blood mage (where +40 health literally means more free spell casts without the need for heals) i don't see why it's bad. (i reason that con is generally bad because in the long run the real constraint on your survival is your heal rate, but for squishy enough characters infinite heal rate won't matter if a bad burst of attacks crit-overpens you down to knockout from full health).

Edited March 26, 2019 by thelee

[Waski]

Yeah, I know how conversion stacks. I was just saying that counting DPS(and measuring impact of UL) from crit as +25% additive dmg is oversimplification.

[Boeroer]

But I didn't just look at a 25% dmg modifier. I gave once case which might be fairly common for a non-crit build and another ridiculous case with an extreme crit dmg build (+150% dmg!) with impossible hit range (100% - in favor of UL). All that to show that not only with a failry normal case but even under the best (impossible) circumstances UL is bad from a dps perspective. I also explicitly added that one has to consider PEN and Overpenetration as well.

 

I gave cases that where in favor of UL. In reality it's even worse from a pure dps perspective. Now take these extremely low numbers (resulting from the rare occcasions in which UL actually triggers) and also consider Underpenetration/Overpenetration (which would totally take a seperate thread if you wanted to do elaborate on that complicated matter) and you would still end up with a lackluster ability.

 

You can ask yourself the following question: "Would I take an ability that offers ~2% additive dps (taking the average - I'm being generous I think) and also grant you a chance of ~2.5% (also generous) that your attack gets *1.5 PEN while it also gives you +5% resistance?". If the answer is "Totally" then Uncanny Luck's actual conversion rate is right for you. If you think that's a bit meh then you think the same way as I do.   

Edited March 26, 2019 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

A some fresh thought: i'll be fine with Uncanny Luck in current state if this ability was not PL 5, but PL 2 or 3. Can we consider this option?

 

Maybe it's cultural difference or whatnot

 

Maybe. Sometimes, when i reading your post i just get such an impression. No offence)

Edited March 26, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

Not really. Because then it's a lower PL than Dirty Fighting but has the same "net percentages" while being a universal/generic ability - which is not desirable following thelee's point of view (not trying to be snarky!) which says that class specific abilites should be better than generic abilites (hope I summed that up correctly). 

 

Dirty Fighting is PL3.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

I got your point. PL 3 is occupied by DF. Sh...

Then my vote for buff.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Phenomenum

[thelee]

A some fresh thought: i'll be fine with Uncanny Luck in current state if this ability was not PL 5, but PL 2 or 3. Can we consider this option?

 

frankly i think aside from maybe prestige or maybe great soul, i'm not altogether unconvinced that virtually every generic talent couldn't be at either like AL2 or 3. most generic talents in PoE1 were all available very early on, and i'm not convinced that the generic talents in Deadfire are really placed in higher ability levels for increasing power so much as "oh hey look you have more choices now." if people would really be happier with uncanny luck if it was earlier, i don't mind such a change. to me it's all the same really. for generic talents i think the main difference is the single class vs multi class cutoff. *maybe* the empower-based talents need to be higher, but personally i find that early on i'm rarely ever empowering abilities due to limited resources/spells so i tend to naturally only start empowering abilities later, so maybe having them earlier on would encourage actually empowering abilities. (though i don't know if my empower behavior is typical)

 

someone else made the point that the current spread of generic talents is likely just a character progression/don't-overwhelm-the-player thing, which i think is reasonable.

 

Not really. Because then it's a lower PL than Dirty Fighting but has the same "net percentages" although being a universal/generic ability - which is not desirable following thelee's point of view (not trying to be snarky here).

i'm not sure i ever made the point that lower/higher PL really mattered, if I did I made it in error because I had mentally agreed with the above perspective some pages back. i think the main thing that matters is whether or not is the class-specific vs generic relative strengths. though from a rogue perspective it is a bit weird to have them at the same AL, but what's also weird is getting spirit of decay as a non-berathian priest. so eh

Edited March 26, 2019 by thelee

[Waski]

Ok, quick offtop(sorry) question about crit conversions. It looks like the best place

Edited March 26, 2019 by Waski

[Phenomenum]

No. Only one conversion.

 

but what's also weird is getting spirit of decay as a non-berathian priest. so eh

 i think this is for multiclasses - basically, for Priest/Someone-else you can pick SoD/SoF... and another passive on the same PL from second class, during one level up. Very handy sometimes.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

Oh... I know that there's only one conversion into one direction - so no graze->hit->crit conversion with one attack roll.

 

But I'm not sure in this special case. Couldn't it be that the attack gets converted from hit to crit and then back to hit by the enemy? I don't know. Good question.

[thelee]

No. Only one conversion.

 

but what's also weird is getting spirit of decay as a non-berathian priest. so eh

 i think this is for multiclasses - basically, for Priest/Someone-else you can pick SoD/SoF... and another passive on the same PL from second class, during one level up. Very handy sometimes.

 

i would be more convinced of this explanation if priest also got secret of rime; they don't so it's clearly linked to a capability that they could have (berath's bonus spells) and it's poor design that it's also available to priest subclasses where it's very nearly a do-nothing. (it is also arguably an oversight that rangers don't get scion of flame now that arcane archers can launch fireballs... but perhaps the devs realized it would be too confusing to have scion of flame when only one ranger subclass can inherently take advantage of it. *sigh*)

 

i don't know what a good solution for this would be. maybe just give everyone every spellcasting PEN talent. iirc in poe1 everyone could get the various elemental talents and it was on you if you picked one that was useless for your build.

 

then again i really should go to bed so maybe i'm agreeing to things that a well-rested version of me wouldn't

 

edit - heck why don't we just move Uncanny Luck to AL1!? If it's a D&D d20 homage, might as well let characters opt into at the very start, no? i don't know if i'm serious. but i mean balance-wise the numbers don't change much based on whether you get it at AL1 and AL5 due to how quickly you climb the early levels and maybe people will feel less "cheated" by it if its competition is arms bearer and/or monastic unarmed training and/or fast runner rather than when their class is entering its peak power curve.

Edited March 26, 2019 by thelee