Political Point and Counterpoint

[Blarghagh]

Nor does Germany have a monopoly on politicians not understanding the internet.

It's not a truck that you dump stuff on, it's a series of pipes!

[Malcador]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/24/us/politics/barr-letter-mueller-report.html

 

Looks like nothing will come from it.

[Bartimaeus]

Based on the Attorney General's summarization, that does seem to be the case. From his statement, the general idea appears to be that there is insufficient evidence for the "collusion" charge (whatever that would actually be legally), and that because the "collusion" charge cannot be proven, it is also difficult to realistically pursue an obstruction of justice charge resulting from it, no matter what Trump's done that explicitly looks like exactly that. If there's not enough evidence, there's not enough evidence. So...vote in a year and a half. It does beg the question of why Trump has been acting so insanely guilty over the past two years (all starting with begging for Comey's loyalty and to close any investigation into him, then firing him when he refused and publicly explaining that it was because of "the Russia thing"). Hoping we get some explanation of that here sooner or later.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Bartimaeus

[Gromnir]

media and politicians has done a terrible job educating folks regarding what mueller were seeming trying to find and likely to find.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/107959-the-political-thread-browncoat-edition-down-with-the-alliance/?p=2141932

 

legal insufficient for conspiracy doesn't surprise us, but am hopeful we get full report to see the extent to which trump attempted to obstruct, whether is enough to get convictions or not.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps

 

zor observation:

 

(1) it was certainly directed to promote or incite imminent lawless action, it specifically included targets to hit in follow up attacks.

 

(2) the only argument is the likelihood of it happening.

 

end

 

and still with the poor reading comprehension.  sheesh.  is not just likelihood o' happening.  is likelihood successful incitement will happen essential immediate 'pon reading. we stressed imminent multiple times.

 

manifesto censorship is an auto-fail for US government in every example to come before courts, and there has been more than one.  imagine a successful situation is difficult as it likely requires a degree o' viewpoint discrimination, which is particular difficult for government to pull off successful.  some kinda religious cult leader exhorting his followers to immediate violence via an internet manifesto posting? might result in allowable censorship, but is doubly difficult to achieve such censorship 'cause is focusing not just on possible impact o' message, but necessitates differentiation 'cause o' kind and quality o' message. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Gromnir

[smjjames]

media and politicians has done a terrible job educating folks regarding what mueller were seeming trying to find and likely to find.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/107959-the-political-thread-browncoat-edition-down-with-the-alliance/?p=2141932

 

legal insufficient for conspiracy doesn't surprise us, but am hopeful we get full report to see the extent to which trump attempted to obstruct, whether is enough to get convictions or not.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It doesn't help that Trump keeps screaming NO COLLUSION as if it were a legal definition.

 

@Bartimaeus: I can certainly believe that the Trump campaign blundered into Russias hands without some sort of agreement or pact, but as you said, theres still too many unanswered questions.

[Zoraptor]

I'd imagine a lot of people convinced of Trump's guilt will be hoping that the AG being a Trump pick has lead to some... charitable interpretations for him in the summary.

 

And it will be interesting to see the reaction of the Sharebluers who have been insisting Mueller would be dragging Trump from the White House in chains at the end of his investigation.

[smjjames]

Sharebluers?

 

Anyways, the Democrats are asking for the full report along with the evidence (i'd certainly like to see what evidence exonerates Trump from willfully/wittingly cooperating with Russia or any other campaign staff and family members doing that), so....

[Sarex]

https://sputniknews.com/photo/201903241073372550-yugoslavia-nato-operation-memory/

 

https://balkaninsight.com/2019/03/22/78-days-of-fear-remembering-natos-bombing-of-yugoslavia/

Edited March 24, 2019 by Sarex

[Gfted1]

Perhaps Shareblue Media.

[Malcador]

I'd imagine a lot of people convinced of Trump's guilt will be hoping that the AG being a Trump pick has lead to some... charitable interpretations for him in the summary.

 

And it will be interesting to see the reaction of the Sharebluers who have been insisting Mueller would be dragging Trump from the White House in chains at the end of his investigation.

 

Likewise Mueller and his team will become an honorable group of people to Trump folk.  Is always funny to see, we have the same going on in Canada. 2 MPs that are causing trouble for Trudeau are being lionized by the opposition for being beacons of integrity

Edited March 24, 2019 by Malcador

[Zoraptor]

Would be even more funny/ ironic if both those MPs causing trouble for Mr Progressive were women and one was a native canadian too.

 

Sharebluers?

 

'Correct the Record' is probably still better known, but it's officially defunct. Shareblue (same one gfted linked to, same guy involved at the top) uses vote manipulation in places like reddit extensively to give anti Trump news the megaphone treatment. They were most obvious when Hillary had her fainting moment on the campaign trail, as all their boosted content disappeared for a day since they had no prepared talking points.

 

i'd certainly like to see what evidence exonerates Trump from willfully/wittingly cooperating with Russia or any other campaign staff and family members doing that

 

 

I think everyone who isn't ideologically committed to one side would like to see the evidence. I'm not expecting literal exoneration personally, but something more similar to the justification for not prosecuting Hillary for her server faux pas; but I always doubted Trump himself was directly involved anyway.

[Malcador]

Would be even more funny/ ironic if both those MPs causing trouble for Mr Progressive were women and one was a native canadian too.

I guess so, seems they are getting the same treatment a male MP would by doing the same thing. Is a bit stupid system to have the AG and a minister in one person as it invites this kind of thing, but also in case of Raybould it's curious what she counts as pressure - well that people will see what they want to with that when she eventually gets around to saying all.

 

This is also some party games nonsense going on with them, I suspect.

[Gromnir]

we were never convinced o' conspiracy to rig an election.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/92340-politics-2017-part-v/?p=1911610

 

even so, am thinking the investigation were warranted 'cause o' possible obstruction, and 'cause regardless o' law, the scope o' trump campaign involvement with russia deserves to be viewed open and naked. 

 

corruption isn't always subject to prosecution, and incompetence rare is.  nevertheless, as the President holds public office, am thinking the people should get a chance to ask questions.

 

now as to the ny stuff... have always thought that is where trump is more vulnerable.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Katphood]

With ISIS being defeated and the story with the Mueller probe coming to an abrupt end, can we turn this thread into 'The Ice Cream Thread'?! There is not much on the news save for reportrs on natural disasters and shootings.

 

I call dibs on the first post:

 

[Gorth]

Need a bit of foreign policy stuff to take peoples minds off the Mueller report?

 

Russian troops arriving in Venezuela.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47688711

[Malcador]

Find it funny the reporter saw 35 tonnes

[Guard Dog]

https://caching.grabien.com/c/streams/0582/KeKv6K56xoX7iwpke4l1Ug/1553558764/582443.mp4?key=KeKv6K56xoX7iwpke4l1Ug

 

 

You know what? I f---g hate the media political talking class. I hate the democrats. I hate the republicans. I hate the whole sick lot of them. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Guard Dog

[Amentep]

The problem with the media is that there's not enough interestingly distinct news to fill the 24-hour news cycle, so they do so by having talking heads.  And the only way talking heads draw ratings is if they work extreme angles to get people interested enough to watch thinking they're actually hearing something that is making news.  But talking heads aren't really news or reporting on the news, and any talking head show should be seen as light entertainment and not taking with any real belief that it means anything.

[Volourn]

The 2016 election and the mueller report conclusions have a lot in common with the way how both sides react to it.

 

 

Pre election: Trump says he will only  accept the results if is shown that they weren't hacked or cheated.  Anti Trmpers - It is IMPOSSIBLE  for the Amerikan election to be hack and it is undemcoractic and anti amerikan to suggest such a thing.

 

Post Election; Trump accepts results, Dems go bat**** crazy and accusing Trump and his cohorts in Russia of HACKING the election.

 

 

During Mueller Investigation: Trump says it is a 'witch hunt' and will fight it all the way. Anti Trumpers says Muller is a long time respected, unbias, and trustworthy sort. Trust him to get the truth.

 

Post Mueller Investigation: Trump says I am 100^ cleared. I win. Dems says not quite, it doesn't disprove you are a Russian spy, and that Mueller he is really shifty because he didn't draw the 'right' conclusion. We will still spend millions tyring to convict of hacking the election. The same election that we claimed was unhackable. We will find evidence of something anything.  Mueller ain't releasing everything so he must be hiding the damnable evidence.  Mueller is a Russian spy!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

LMAOLMAOLMAO

[Guard Dog]

 

The face you make when you blow $35M of the taxpayers hard earned money over 22 months and release a report that neither concludes a crime happened nor that one didn't!.  http://time.com/5557693/mueller-report-cost/

 

Only in government can you blow $35M in 22 months and have really nothing to show for it and no one bats an eyelash.

 

The funny thing is on Friday the Democrats thought he was Captain America. Today he's a Trump stooge and possibly colluding with the Russians himself! 

 

I'm telling, this s--t is out of control. If you actually vote for a Democrat or a Republican you REALLY need you head examined. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Guard Dog

[smjjames]

I'd like to see the evidence exonerating Trump before declaring it a failure. Also, this all came about because Trump fired Comey, so, it's all on him for getting the ball rolling on what you say was a waste of money. Plus, it was a Republican who selected Mueller, himself a Republican, so, don't pin it all on the Democrats.

 

If the Democrats somehow manage to nominate someone dumb like that Oprah spritual advisor, then perhaps I'd consider voting Libertarian or Green or whatever.

 

Also, there are those who would say voting Libertarian means you need to have your head examined, just saying.

[Malcador]

Only in government can you blow $35M in 22 months and have really nothing to show for it and no one bats an eyelash.

You haven't worked with banks, I see

[Guard Dog]

 

 

Also, there are those who would say voting Libertarian means you need to have your head examined, just saying.

 

  Yep, right here on this board in fact. Every other November the D & R come to us with two bags. One is full of horse s--t the other is full of cow s--t. They tell us we have to eat the contents of one of those bags but we get to choose which one. But somehow the ones who say "I don't want to eat a bag of s--t" are the crazy ones!

[ShadySands]

3rd party voters make the best punching bags

[Gromnir]

(edit)

 

The face you make when you blow $35M of the taxpayers hard earned money over 22 months and release a report that neither concludes a crime happened nor that one didn't!.  http://time.com/5557693/mueller-report-cost/

 

Only in government can you blow $35M in 22 months and have really nothing to show for it and no one bats an eyelash.

 

The funny thing is on Friday the Democrats thought he was Captain America. Today he's a Trump stooge and possibly colluding with the Russians himself! 

 

I'm telling, this s--t is out of control. If you actually vote for a Democrat or a Republican you REALLY need you head examined. 

 

would hardly describe as nothing shown.   whole lotta indictments and numerous convictions. 

 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/mueller-indictments-grand-jury

 

the trump organization had a significant number o' bad actors working for it, and those folks kept lying during interviews with fbi and investigators.  old adage: why lie unless there is something to hide, yes?  every time somebody lied to mueller, the investigation necessarily continued and expanded. 

 

as we noted earlier, am thinking there is significant obstruction evidence, but w/o the underlying conspiracy, such evidence is ineffectual.  nevertheless, had to keep investigating obstruction, 'cause folks kept trying to obstruct.

 

am also thinking a whole lotta work product from the special counsel investigation were shared with ny.  when were mueller convinced collusion would be impractical to prosecute? dunno, but as long as witnesses kept lying, special counsel had a duty to investigate, and a good excuse to share info with ny ag and others. long run, the special counsel investigation is likely gonna be far more damaging to trump in ny than ever were gonna be the case for collusion.

 

need to see obstruction findings 'fore we judge value o' the lengthy investigation.  as we said, is almost impossible to make an obstruction charge stick if there is no underlying crime, but if there is significant evidence o' obstruction, of trump and others interfering and hindering the investigation, such could be just as damning for trump as conspiracy charges.  devil is in the details.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps edited out gd's image after-the fact. clutter management.

 

pps  am gonna try and provide an example which may be relevant in near future to explain the obstruction thing and why folks should hold off on coming to conclusions 'til we get more info.

 

fraud.  most folks is familiar with the term and is aware such is a crime, yes?  common law fraud, which is actual the law o' fraud nowhere in the US, has a bunch o' different elements which is common in almost every jurisdiction.  shorthand: defendant must make a knowing misrepresentation o' material facts, a misrepresentation the defendant is aware a listener could believe. for there to be a crime, there must also be a victim listener who is unaware the defendant is lying, and who relies 'pon the misstatement to their detriment.

 

so let's say there is a guy who lies to get a bank loan.  bribes multiple bank officials and appraisers.  forges documents. uses multiple underhanded and nefarious tricks to get loan which bank admits it never woulda' provided w/o the defendant's lies and schemes.  however, the bank doesn't actual lose money.  the bad guy manages to make payments on the loan in a timely and responsible fashion.

 

no fraud.

 

doesn't mean the guy who lied and bribed did nothing wrong, but does mean 'cause bank didn't lose money there is no crime o' fraud. 

 

people often get confused 'tween what is legal and what is right. find considerable evidence a person is doing wrong could be just as damaging (or moreso) to their career than is evidence o' a crime.  

 

let's see what report actual says is all Gromnir is suggesting.  

Edited March 25, 2019 by Gromnir