Political Point and Counterpoint

[Guard Dog]

  A few weeks ago someone sent me the tweet she sent to announce her candidacy in '16 with the date modified. It DID have me going for a bit. 

[injurai]

She's gearing up for the Biden VP position.

[Kefka1134]

Free speech is wow didn't want to make a political point but I guess this is what's developed in video games and it needs to be put to rest. 

 

Free speech is not a right, certainly not inherent in nature, it's been made a right by the government and forces and nerds and all kinds of people.....

 

Basically saying what you actually want/think has been restricted in various ways various times by various cultures in various ways... and the reason

 

the issue is popping up in America , because, believe it or not, free speech in America has never been effectively at all times or continuously (as in 

only exists in burst and spurts) 

 

able to gurantee free speech, it's been repressed easily then and now. 

 

In the last 20 years, what developed is free speech got threated threatened as video games and the government/usa all these traditional nerd communities

etc were taked taken out of the picture....

 

Now people realize their free speech is gone, and blamed all those sub cultures, now they realize even after attacking them viciously free speech is still gone. 

 

Ergo we get the final conclusion, which is that they are wrong...

 

I mean honestly people though t like Los Angeles in America is some bastion of freedom, it's the COMPLETE opposite at least it always has been, who can

say when/ever that will change... it's the purest form of institutional repression. 

 

So if people want free speech, then they at least have to support the institutions that give them that....

 

What made WoW a big success is people could talk openly and freely for the first time for a very long time... on the internet... in various ways....

 

That couldn't happen before, what could replicate WoW's success in the future is just maintaining that... and believe it or not there's very few places where \

you can do that i.e. but here it is acceptable obviously within typical limits of a kind but essentially it's maintained in a way not given to others. 

 

I was/ well am to an esxtent one of the nerds responsible for helping create the OC inferno and I mean that not in a bad way like the explosion of possibilities there not directly but for example I provided a lot of advice in Everquest

on the quest system and developing it and trying to make sure it worked through my own trial and error... I thought quests were the future of games and quit

Everquest when it became clear that the decxd dedicated quest system wasn't going to work. Now I've never been an official employee of these places

but yes in terms of playing them and doing stuff I've followed a lot of these games and attempted to learn what is attracting players

and obviously many of us like the game universe and characters but the true/deepest attyraction has been commuhnication. 

 

I've already explained what, IMO, Obsidian should do from a game perspective, and at any rate as to the other reasons people are attracted to these places I guess it's just up to peole to recognize that free speech is being

provided here and other people should get it and the argument isn't about whether people should get it although some might argue that, from my POV

It's recognizing that many peole don't have it. 

 

And then why they don't have it, and why these forces provide it, and honestly tons of other questions... that discussion should

just be getting started I guess right about now and we can move on from there more or less I believe. 

 

The free speech side is also recognizing that Orange County is actually run by a guy who stra traces his politics to the east of America

where law has traditionally resides, such as Tennessee and so on (I believe Donald Bren speaks with a southern accent actually, for ex)

 

Corporations, regular government people, nerds, non-nerds, just... the forces/combination of factors that provide good things

is mysterious and leaving parts out is bad... identity is good but failing to understand the big coalition thing is also bad IMO. 

 

I think this also spills into why I don't believe TOW will be a hit... I mean it'll sell... but it's retrograde... honestly all of the

Obsidian/Fallout kinda games are more or less too retro.... for super mainstream success. 

 

Like in Fallout 1 the enemy is the enclave... kinda…. but really the Enclave (remnants of the US govt) and the renegades in Fallout

are basically both minorities, they rely on each other I think... and what should happen is it should go forward. 

 

In fact, the brotherhood of steel runs more or less like a kind of government already, it's organized and institutionakl, so the enclave

should for it's own part recognize that this isn't wanton chaos, it's people that created some kind of space out of chaos...

 

It's more or less a replication of greek mythology etc and the idea that there is nothing and then there is a light of a kind... 

 

But as well know.. the Greeks were eventually defated… so what does provide free speech?

 

Well I don't know how much it matters... but I can tell you that if there were ancient greeks, and they did awesome things, 

and they're spiritual essence lives on on now in some form, then they are definitely inm important in one form or another. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Kefka1134

[Pidesco]

She's gearing up for the Biden VP position.

 

I would love seeing Clinton announced as Sanders' VP. The meltdowns would be delicious

[Pidesco]

Free speech is wow didn't want to make a political point but I guess this is what's developed in video games and it needs to be put to rest. 

 

Free speech is not a right, certainly not inherent in nature, it's been made a right by the government and forces and nerds and all kinds of people.....

 

Basically saying what you actually want/think has been restricted in various ways various times by various cultures in various ways... and the reason

 

the issue is popping up in America , because, believe it or not, free speech in America has never been effectively at all times or continuously (as in 

only exists in burst and spurts) 

 

able to gurantee free speech, it's been repressed easily then and now. 

 

In the last 20 years, what developed is free speech got threated threatened as video games and the government/usa all these traditional nerd communities

etc were taked taken out of the picture....

 

Now people realize their free speech is gone, and blamed all those sub cultures, now they realize even after attacking them viciously free speech is still gone. 

 

Ergo we get the final conclusion, which is that they are wrong...

 

I mean honestly people though t like Los Angeles in America is some bastion of freedom, it's the COMPLETE opposite at least it always has been, who can

say when/ever that will change... it's the purest form of institutional repression. 

 

So if people want free speech, then they at least have to support the institutions that give them that....

 

What made WoW a big success is people could talk openly and freely for the first time for a very long time... on the internet... in various ways....

 

That couldn't happen before, what could replicate WoW's success in the future is just maintaining that... and believe it or not there's very few places where \

you can do that i.e. but here it is acceptable obviously within typical limits of a kind but essentially it's maintained in a way not given to others. 

 

I was/ well am to an esxtent one of the nerds responsible for helping create the OC inferno and I mean that not in a bad way like the explosion of possibilities there not directly but for example I provided a lot of advice in Everquest

on the quest system and developing it and trying to make sure it worked through my own trial and error... I thought quests were the future of games and quit

Everquest when it became clear that the decxd dedicated quest system wasn't going to work. Now I've never been an official employee of these places

but yes in terms of playing them and doing stuff I've followed a lot of these games and attempted to learn what is attracting players

and obviously many of us like the game universe and characters but the true/deepest attyraction has been commuhnication. 

 

I've already explained what, IMO, Obsidian should do from a game perspective, and at any rate as to the other reasons people are attracted to these places I guess it's just up to peole to recognize that free speech is being

provided here and other people should get it and the argument isn't about whether people should get it although some might argue that, from my POV

It's recognizing that many peole don't have it. 

 

And then why they don't have it, and why these forces provide it, and honestly tons of other questions... that discussion should

just be getting started I guess right about now and we can move on from there more or less I believe. 

 

The free speech side is also recognizing that Orange County is actually run by a guy who stra traces his politics to the east of America

where law has traditionally resides, such as Tennessee and so on (I believe Donald Bren speaks with a southern accent actually, for ex)

 

Corporations, regular government people, nerds, non-nerds, just... the forces/combination of factors that provide good things

is mysterious and leaving parts out is bad... identity is good but failing to understand the big coalition thing is also bad IMO. 

 

I think this also spills into why I don't believe TOW will be a hit... I mean it'll sell... but it's retrograde... honestly all of the

Obsidian/Fallout kinda games are more or less too retro.... for super mainstream success. 

 

Like in Fallout 1 the enemy is the enclave... kinda…. but really the Enclave (remnants of the US govt) and the renegades in Fallout

are basically both minorities, they rely on each other I think... and what should happen is it should go forward. 

 

In fact, the brotherhood of steel runs more or less like a kind of government already, it's organized and institutionakl, so the enclave

should for it's own part recognize that this isn't wanton chaos, it's people that created some kind of space out of chaos...

 

It's more or less a replication of greek mythology etc and the idea that there is nothing and then there is a light of a kind... 

 

Is English not your first language?

[smjjames]

 

-Wall Of Text-

 

Is English not your first language?

 

 

I don't get the sense that english isn't their first language, though the formatting is strange, like they typed it up in notepad with word-wrap off and then copied and pasted or something.

[Hurlshort]

Stream of consciousness writing makes me question the importance of free speech. 

[Pidesco]

 

 

-Wall Of Text-

 

Is English not your first language?

 

 

I don't get the sense that english isn't their first language, though the formatting is strange, like they typed it up in notepad with word-wrap off and then copied and pasted or something.

 

 

But can you parse that?

[smjjames]

Anyways, I don't agree that WoWs success was due to being able to talk freely and openly on the internet because forums existed right from the very beginning and plenty of MMORPGs older than WoW had just as much free speech as most everybody else. WoW of course, had it's terms of service like everybody else. You can definetly act like a jerkass in WoW, theres nothing stopping you from doing so, but you can still get booted because it's being run by a private company, not the government.

 

 

 

 

 

-Wall Of Text-

 

Is English not your first language?

 

 

I don't get the sense that english isn't their first language, though the formatting is strange, like they typed it up in notepad with word-wrap off and then copied and pasted or something.

 

 

But can you parse that?

 

 

Parse? Not really, it's very rambly and stream of consciousness as hurlshot said.

Edited March 5, 2019 by smjjames

[Guard Dog]

There is a serious misunderstanding of what free speech actually means. In the US the First Amendment protects you from the GOVERNMENT. The GOVERNMENT can't shut you up. Or shut your newspaper down, or your internet forum. The GOVERNMENT can't lock you up or kill you over what you write or say. Even about it. Hell, ESPECIALLY about it. Remember there have been and still are places that very thing happens even today. Even in relatively free countries.

 

It does not protect the speaker, writer, editor, etc from scorn, ridicule, criticism, etc. It does not protect NFL players from NFL management, university students from stupid campus policy, you from your employer, or any of us here from the wrath of Fio or the Mods if you provoke it. 

 

It is not unlimited. You cannot incite violence or panic. You cannot publish lies (libel) or speak (slander) lies with the intention being malicious. Otherwise knock yourself out. But you might e told to STFU and you need to be cool with that. Because that is OK too.

[Amentep]

university students from stupid campus policy,

 

As I understand it state supported universities are considered to be part of the government, so can't curtail free speech.  They can, however, control disruptive speech since they're a place of education so, for example, local state universities typically have "free speech zones" that are placed in areas of campus so that, for example, random people can come and shout about how all youths are sinners and gay people will burn in hell  or whatever while not disrupting the educational process on what is, in essence, government property.

 

The student safety cancellation stuff was a bit of an end run around this and I'm not sure would realistically stand up to a challenge (memory says it was challenged and didn't, but I'm not going to be bothered to look it up).

 

[Gromnir]

 

university students from stupid campus policy,

 

As I understand it state supported universities are considered to be part of the government, so can't curtail free speech.  They can, however, control disruptive speech since they're a place of education so, for example, local state universities typically have "free speech zones" that are placed in areas of campus so that, for example, random people can come and shout about how all youths are sinners and gay people will burn in hell  or whatever while not disrupting the educational process on what is, in essence, government property.

 

The student safety cancellation stuff was a bit of an end run around this and I'm not sure would realistically stand up to a challenge (memory says it was challenged and didn't, but I'm not going to be bothered to look it up).

 

 

 

essential correct regarding public universities.  is some extreme limited situations when  a state funded/run universities may curtail free speech beyond typical first amendment limits.  we mentioned the biology professor trying to teach creationism earlier in this thread.  the biology professor may go and teach creationism to listeners in parks and on public streets, but he might be prevented from doing so at a state University.  however, for the most part, state schools gotta protect Constitutional free speech rights.  similar, if your employer is the US Department of Forestry, your free speech rights related to your employment is different than would be so if you were a greeter at Walmart. 

 

the Courts has been mighty critical o' student safety appeals to curtail speech.  Cal lost a recent court battle wherein they cancelled a milo whatshisname speech 'cause o' possibility o' violence.  cost the university $70k, lawyer fees (yay! more than $70k for lawyer fees btw,) and were forced to revise university student safety protocols. understandable, the Court were more than a little dubious 'bout  Cal fears and were much concerned 'bout the exploitive possibilities o' Cal's current policy.  antifa doesn't want the ghost of Bob Hope to speak at Cal.  antifa knows Cal will cancel any speech if violence is possible.  therefore antifa threatens violence if Bob Hope's spectre is allowed on campus.  Cal cancels the Bob Hope event.  obvious problem, no?  antifa is able to dictate which speakers is allowed on campus by threatening illegal activity? Court tells Cal to go home and do their free speech homework 'cause they got a D- so far. 

 

'course the trump threats is a little different.  is a funding threat.  

 

https://www.oyez.org/cases/1986/86-260

 

to a certain degree, the fed may limit funds received by states, if those states do not follow certain guidelines. you want highway funding dollars? then you gotta have a under-twenty-one alcohol prohibition.  

 

trump tried to extend the aforementioned rationale to the executive branch and threatened funds going to sanctuary cities.  Courts has so far not been favorable to the trump administration's efforts. our recollection is all sanctuary cities got their monies save for Portland, Oregon and that were more due to procedural incompetence on the part o' the Portland plaintiffs.  as such, trump efforts to impose wh authored first amendment guidelines on universities which is already subject to first amendment protections is likely doomed, but as with muslim ban, he very well could force the issue and eventual get some kinda watered-down version o' what he is promising. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

  cost the university $70k, lawyer fees (yay! more than $70k for lawyer fees btw,)  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[injurai]

Stream of consciousness writing makes me question the importance of free speech. 

 

At the expense of losing James Joyce?

[smjjames]

Biden is looking more and more like he's going to run.

[Gfted1]

DNC Bars Fox News From Hosting 2020 Primary Debates.

[Volourn]

But, I thought politicians attacking news organizations is evil or wrong. Oh yeah, only if it fits in your bubble. FOX skews the other way so DNC has no problem attacking them (much like Obama did). And, Trump attacks news organziations that lean left. IMAGINE THAT. Politicians doing what politicians do - be hypocrites.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Volourn

[smjjames]

DNC Bars Fox News From Hosting 2020 Primary Debates.

 

There seems to be some confusion between various sources, some are saying that the DNC is barring them from hosting a debate, others are saying that the DNC is not allowing Fox to air or broadcast the debates.

 

If they don't want Fox to host a debate, fine, that's their choice, but outright blocking them from airing it alltogether is IMO a big mistake as it shuts out the chance to introduce the candidates to voters who do watch Fox but aren't neccesarily fanatic loyalists to Trump.

[ShadySands]

It's kind of a pointless thing to write an article about or for the DNC to even mention but we already know they are brain neutral at the best of times.

 

That said, there is no comparable news site on the left. There are sites that lean so far left that they are basically laying down but they don't do the numbers or have the impact that FOX does on the right.

[Gromnir]

DNC Bars Fox News From Hosting 2020 Primary Debates.

 

 

didn't read the link, but would hardly be shocking after fox s'posed fed questions pre-debate to a preferred candidate during the 2016 cycle.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps only unfortunate aspect is how the majority o' fox news people, unlike the fox opinion/talking heads, is ranging from good to excellent.  have a guy like chris wallace barred from debates 'cause o' the shenanigans o' hannity and ailes is a loss not just for fox.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Gromnir

[Elerond]

But, I thought politicians attacking news organizations is evil or wrong. Oh yeah, only if it fits in your bubble. FOX skews the other way so DNC has no problem attacking them (much like Obama did). And, Trump attacks news organziations that lean left. IMAGINE THAT. Politicians doing what politicians do - be hypocrites.

 

They say that reason for their move is  just revealed information that Fox not only lean right but they actually buried news stories about Trump which they though could hinder his ability become president.

 

But DNC lost last presidential election where they supported free press, as Americans voted anti-free press president in, so clearly they have just adjusted their agenda to fit what Americans want 

[Gorth]

The not so subtle art of auto-foot-shooting....

 

Trump dealt blow as US trade deficit jumps

 

...

Instead, Donald Trump goes into the presidential re-election race having failed to deliver on his campaign promise to close the US trade deficit.

 

Part of the problem is Mr Trump's own tax policies. They boosted US consumption and a lot of that spending went abroad.

 

This happened as growth was slowing in other parts of the world, contributing to a rising dollar. That made US exports more expensive and less competitive.

...

[HoonDing]

[Guard Dog]

[Malcador]

47 months for Manafort. Bah, I had bet on 8 years.