Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[baldurs_gate_2]

I just post it here: Does stalker's link work with ghost heart?

[Boeroer]

Yes

[Yosharian]

Damage removes charm/dominate? Since when?

[Boeroer]

Can't say. Some while ago.

 

But only if (temporary) allies hit them.

 

If the enemies hit a target which you charmed it will not flip.

But if you charm somebody and then smack him he/she/it will not be charmed anymore. Makes sense.

 

Domination stays.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Boeroer

[Yosharian]

Can't say. Some while ago.

 

But only if (temporary) allies hit them.

 

If the enemies hit a target which you charmed it will not flip.

But if you charm somebody and then smack him he/she/it will not be charmed anymore. Makes sense.

 

Domination stays.

Ahh ok

[brasilgringo]

So I've been running a Tactian/BloodMage "the hard way" -- leveling up with no console -- solo, and here are some initial quick impressions:

 

• When you can trigger Brilliant and get your infinite class resources, the build is very powerful.  However, it's not about "Big Numbers" so much -- it's about whittling away recasting spells like Chillfog, Combusting Wounds, Wall of Fire, Ninagauth's Shadow Flame, Ninagauth's Freezing Pillar, etc.
• I went Pale Elf for the +4 AR to fire/cold.  May be able to post stats etc. later.  Dumped resolve to start and now it sits at 12 after gear and no-rest buffs.  My out-of-combat stats at 20 are 21/13/24/22/24/12.  They started as 15/8/18/13/18/3 before BB.
• I went with a custom history that let me sacrifice Sagani to blood pool for accuracy and Per bonus.  Also got Gift of Machine to buff strength/health and also the Gawain's buff from Cignath Mor which is pretty awesome (you don't get to fight the Kraken, but not important on a solo build that doesn't need Mask of Grotto Deep or the Kraken Eye).  I think the Gawain buff used to be bugged but it works for me (Savage Cunning +1 Perception, +2 survival).
• It starts powerful even on Port Maje due to Chill Fog and the damage it does at low levels.
• There were some fights I skipped even on Veteran to start, including the drakes/boars at the digsite.  Maybe I could have done them, just wanted to move on frankly. 
• Early levels went by fast following a lot of the no-combat run tips (exploring map, Benwith no-combat resolution (bomb in piano), etc.).  I switched to POTD only after getting all the no-rest buffs, which I did really late (like level 18+) and frankly POTD has been largely easier so far on the fights i've done.
• Jadaferlas on POTD was pretty easy at 20 with +fire AR items, Revku's cloak and the other Revku gear, and the no-rest buffs.  The key was keeping his magma oozes in front of him so he could't reach me.  The issue was my Accuracy (I didn't want to enter melee to hit him with -Reflex flail) which was hurt by not being able to stick a Phantasm on him (no room or died too quick) to avoid the -5 Tactician debuff, and using a large shield. I switched to small shield and tried some items like nature's mark scroll and perfect aim scroll, and he went down faster.  Not having to enter melee with him meant I could avoid his wounding bite attack, so it was just time -- which I had, due to infinite resources from Brilliant.  Done on 2nd try only because i let him bite me (stood to close for cutscene) on first try, meaning I got a 2nd wound (had one already) and I didn't want to have to remove the wounds and get them again.
• Concelhaut and his pals were pretty easy because by that point I had the Sigil stones active and could just bascially run up, chillfog them all so they closed to closer range, and then start unleashing perma-resources on them (just had to keep Arcane Reflection up).  Slicken is amazing in this fight, it rag-dolls them all.  Done first try.  Facetanking the lot of them was incredibly satisfying.
• Ironically the ground-floor foes at the Observatory were harder, largely because it's tougher to make sure you actually get *all* of them to come to you to be chillfogged -- and if you don't, you lose Brilliant.  Also the Ogres and other mobs that enter from the closed door mid-fight make things harder.  It always came down to 2 orges and a Myrmidon.  I had to redo this at least 1 time.
• Grimoire swtching is a drag.  But it frees up so many power pics. I ended up respeccing to use Martial Masteries to self-buff (Infuse, Alacrity, Safeguard, Bulwark vs. Elements when needed), Ninagauth's as main damage dealer.  I picked up Iron-Clasped from Concelhaut, but not sure if I'll use.  I took Tentacles so I can heal off them with Concelhaut spells if needed.
• Hats off to Victor Creed (YouTube) for his streams on this build.  I wish he'd actually posted his build though. I kept having to try to figure it out.
• I used Squid's Grasp from VERY EARLY (enough $$ to get it from Berath's Blessings) and only got Gipon later like 18+, it was a hard fight on Veteran early but easy on POTD later.
• Patinated Plate can be stolen (I stole it using leap boots and thief's putty / burglar gloves) and made things much easier mid-game especially with the upgrade for action speed.  I made Gipon Prudensco mythic using the Berath's Blessing stone, but I almost wanted to do it with Patinated Plate given the speed buffs from wizard and the tankiness.
• Worst fight was the first room of Nagas at Koponga Fang (for Revku cloak) - it's hard to group them, and it took me a while to figure out that fire damage actually *heals* them.  When I couldn't group them to flank with chillfog, I lost Brilliant and ran out of resources and died.  That's basically the story of the build.
• I need to figure out some accuracy buffs maybe.  I can't seem to find a scroll to make that does it, though some buff perception.
• I respec'd at least 3-4 times along the way -- started with Bluff and Mechanics and only switched into Athletics (10pts) and Metaphysics (20pts) late game after getting Cadhu Scalth (used Magran's Fire shield early).  I'm wondering if Nerian's Ward is a better option but everyone seems to say Cadhu is the best even with accuracy penalty ("malus").
• Heading to Splintered Reef right now to see how that goes.  More later as I see it.  UPDATE:  the encounter at Sea-Lashed Crypt, with about a million mobs, was a lot easier than on prev builds.  Spell-shaping large area chill fogs and Slickens is key here - both help keep the mobs locked down.  What I noticed killing me 1-2 times when I got ****y, with only 4-5 fampyrs remaining, was some sort of Petryfying spell attack.  If I remembered to keep casting Arcane Reflection, I didn't have a problem.  But with low fort, if I let up the Arcane Reflection and slickens, they would inevitably paralyze me and I would go down.  Still, it was way easier than ever before - I think on my 3rd try I used 1 major healing potion and 1 moonwell scroll, and that was about it. I'm running with perma Captains Banquet but I should have tried to dig up some resistance to dexterity affliction gear I guess.
• Update:  Just face-tanked the Fampyr Cave which was a fun change, first try. However the Flooded Cave mobs have killed me 2x due, I think, to buffs from the War Caller chanters and for some reason my not being able to flank/blind the Ancient Lich Battlemage - I keep running out of resources.  Will try fresh again later.
• Update:  Nemnok's Lair:  Eoten Dwellers are tough, as they are immune to Flank -- so unless I can kill them quick, I run out of resources.  And I can't seem to do enough damage with spells to take them down (they are chanters or something and self-heal afaik)..  Need to figure out a better strategy than my current of smacking them with a flail (to lower reflex) and trying to nuke them down before running out of resources.  Using a lot of Blood Mage spell recovery in groups of them (2-3 per group) and even some heal potions
• Lower level with Nemnok himself is proving really hard -- can't figure out how to pull only a small group, once I aggro a mob literally every mob on the level comes for me.  There are 2 eoten dwellers that I can't flank, so no Brilliant - and then ... i run out of resources and die.  Also have to chug a ton of healing potions to try to make it through.  Open to suggestions.  UPDATE:  I finally managed to beat the level with Nemnok himself by loading up on heal potions and using scrolls of Insect Swarm (large radius) -- this gave me enough duration and extra damage to last through killing the Eoten Dwellers, at which point I could get Brilliant again (since they are Flank immune).  The battle ended up as me vs. Nemnok, and it wasn't that easy -- it took a while, even trying to flank him with Phantom and chill fog.  I saved a level to try this again later.  I keep getting dampenered at the start of the fight and some time during it - even though I have Arcane Reflection up.  Makes it harder.  Anyway, I did finally beat it - but I want to go back and try again.
• UPDATE:  i just saw on Raven Darkhome's twitch that going invisible at the start of the Nemnok-level fight makes up to half the mobs run away, including Eoten Dweller.  Sure would have been nice to know this at the time, as I ended up pulling every mob in the place and had to reload a bunch to finally make it thru.  Leaving this here in case someone reads it in future.  Note in his Twitch he went invis with Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure, but I'd imagine rogue powers or potions work.
• Off to try FS or BoW now.

 

Leveling up is kind of a drag and using the console is more fun to me, I think.  That way I can start with the gear and test the build at 20 on the harder fights.  Shrug.

Edited January 8, 2019 by brasilgringo

[zarick13]

So I've been running a Tactian/BloodMage "the hard way" -- leveling up with no console -- solo, and here are some initial quick impressions:

 

I've been running the Tactician/Trickster that I cribbed mostly from knownastherat upthread (thanks for that by the way). It's super fun, but probably a lot less powerful generally than the Battlemage version. However, I'd wager post 10 or so it does a lot better when you have a small amount of melee enemies to face, since you can keep them perma-distracted.

 

I kind of want to try out the Battlemage version as well but may end up doing chanter/wizard instead.

[giftmefood]

Stalking this thread for some solo Dorudugan builds. Already seen Kaylon's youtube solo but it feels like a cheese. Poke at range while skeleton chant distracts him. I'm wondering if there's a build out there who can face tank Dorudugan? 

[Arnegar]

Arcane Archer seems truly awful, like worse than basic no-subclass ranger. The imbued shots aren't very good and you can use so few of them per encounter that it doesn't come close to compensating for the accuracy and health penalties. They don't really scale with the ranger passives and they're just lower-level wizard spells, not even unique abilities. Pretty disappointing. It feels like ten minutes of thought went into the making of this class. At a bare minimum, the bond cost of the spells needs to be halved so you can actually use them more than two or three times per fight. Then get rid of the accuracy penalty and you might be looking at a class worth playing, mostly because the other ranger subclasses present such weak competition.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Arnegar

[Boeroer]

Then you haven't figured out how Arcane Archer works yet.

 

Some points again:

 

- certain weapons that do elemental dmg don't get the ACC penalty

- Imbue spells get triggered on every jump. That means that you can trigger up to 3 Fireballs, Pull of Eora, Death Rings etc. per shot (initial hit, Driving Flight, jump form enchantment like e.g. Watershaper's Focus). Even five procs when using Wild Barrage. Try to use 5 Death Rings per shot on a group of enemies: usually it's insta-win with such high ACC.

- All ACC bonuses (including Arcana) also apply to the spells.

- if you take Spearcaster and scale Arcana you will have crazy high ACC when using Imbue spells and still plenty plenty when not.

 

If you pick the right weapon you will only have one Malus: a bit less health. While you get some nice CC and AoE option. How is that worse as a vanilla ranger?

Edited January 2, 2019 by Boeroer

[hansvedic]

When it comes to Blood Mage multiclasses, does anyone know yet exactly what affects Blood Sacrifice self-damage?

For instance, if I wear equipment that does not buff MIG, but does a general damage buff, would that increase Blood Sacrifice self-damage?

[dunehunter]

Then you haven't figured out how Arcane Archer works yet.

 

Some points again:

 

- certain weapons that do elemental dmg don't get the ACC penalty

- Imbue spells get triggered on every jump. That means that you can trigger up to 3 Fireballs, Pull of Eora, Death Rings etc. per shot (initial hit, Driving Flight, jump form enchantment like e.g. Watershaper's Focus). Even five procs when using Wild Barrage. Try to use 5 Death Rings per shot on a group of enemies: usually it's insta-win with such high ACC.

- All ACC bonuses (including Arcana) also apply to the spells.

- if you take Spearcaster and scale Arcana you will have crazy high ACC when using Imbue spells and still plenty plenty when not.

 

If you pick the right weapon you will only have one Malus: a bit less health. While you get some nice CC and AoE option. How is that worse as a vanilla ranger?

 

Five Ring of Death sounds very powerful

[Sanctuary]

Then you haven't figured out how Arcane Archer works yet.

 

Some points again:

 

- certain weapons that do elemental dmg don't get the ACC penalty

- Imbue spells get triggered on every jump. That means that you can trigger up to 3 Fireballs, Pull of Eora, Death Rings etc. per shot (initial hit, Driving Flight, jump form enchantment like e.g. Watershaper's Focus). Even five procs when using Wild Barrage. Try to use 5 Death Rings per shot on a group of enemies: usually it's insta-win with such high ACC.

- All ACC bonuses (including Arcana) also apply to the spells.

- if you take Spearcaster and scale Arcana you will have crazy high ACC when using Imbue spells and still plenty plenty when not.

 

If you pick the right weapon you will only have one Malus: a bit less health. While you get some nice CC and AoE option. How is that worse as a vanilla ranger?

 

I really want to play the class, but is it really worth bothering with over just playing a Wizard/Ranger or even just a Wizard with a bow for whatever reason before the imbue scaling gets fixed?  Do the accuracy bonuses and the potential multiple jumps more than make up for the currently incorrect scaling?

Edited January 3, 2019 by Sanctuary

[Boeroer]

The spells' ACC and damage do scale. Only PEN doesn't. It's an oversight and I hope it gets fixed soon. Nick Carver stated that all Imbue-spells should scale like their normal counterparts.

 

For CC imbues PEN doesn't matter at all. Doing 3 Pull of Eora or Bindig Web with one shot and combining it with Binding Roots is a very powerful powerful CC effect.

 

Of course you can go Geomancer. Why not. You can even do Wizard/Arcane Archer.

 

The only real downside of the Arcane Archer compared to a vanilla one is the ACC penalty with normal weapons. If you circumvent that: how can the Arcane Archer be worse than the vanilla one?

 

I think people still believe that subclasses have to be more powerful than the vanilla ones and are somehow disappointed if they are only slightly - or not obviously.

[Frak]

I think people still believe that subclasses have to be more powerful than the vanilla ones and are somehow disappointed if they are only slightly - or not obviously.

 

 

Seconded. That is alse the problem with chanter. There really isn't reason to go default chanter as troubador can do everything better than default. Nerf troubador!

[dunehunter]

 

I think people still believe that subclasses have to be more powerful than the vanilla ones and are somehow disappointed if they are only slightly - or not obviously.

 

 

Seconded. That is alse the problem with chanter. There really isn't reason to go default chanter as troubador can do everything better than default. Nerf troubador!

 

 

Same as trickster!

[Elric Galad]

Same as berseker.

[dunehunter]

Same as berseker.

 

I think it's debatable that berseker is better because the hidden health bar + high level self raw damage can be very dangerous.

 

While it is clear that Vanilla Rogue << Trickster and Vanilla Chanter << Troubaour.

Edited January 3, 2019 by dunehunter

[TheWeaver]

The spells' ACC and damage do scale. Only PEN doesn't. It's an oversight and I hope it gets fixed soon. Nick Carver stated that all Imbue-spells should scale like their normal counterparts.

 

FWIW, my testing (https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/107559-question-arcane-archer-scaling/?p=2127856) seems to show that other than missile count no other scaling is being applied (though I can't really confirm the damage scaling since that isn't shown directly).  The ACC being missing is annoying, but not fatal since Rangers in general have ACC to burn and you get the Arcana bonus (though on PotD it can be noticed).  The lack of PEN is noticeable even on Veteran.

 

The most recent test is interesting -- if you empower the Imbue then suddenly you get all the scaling you should (both from the empower and from your own PL).  Furthermore it is shown as "Imube:XX Power Level" which differs from the spells (which show Wizard PL).  That could just be a tooltip issue or it could be significant -- obviously I can't tell.

 

I hope you are right about a fix -- I've received exactly 0 response from Obs on my posts in Tech Support (Simon has done 2 "I've logged something and we're looking into it" passes over new posts since I created this and declined to comment both times, so I'm not holding my breath).

 

EDIT:  clarified that the Arcana bonus ACC is there, it is just the ACC from PL scaling that is missing

Edited January 3, 2019 by TheWeaver

[Boeroer]

You should bump it. Or wait, I will...

[Boeroer]

You should rename the thread (in the support forum). "Question" might get overlooked by QA. Rename it to "[bUG <game version>] Arcana Archer: Imbue spells don't scale properly with Power Levels" or something like that.

[Marigoldran]

Shi-.  Death Ring is Foe only, too.  

 

I heard there was a patch today.  Did it fix the PL bug for Arcane Archer? 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Marigoldran

[Boeroer]

Hm, there are no new patch notes.

[Marigoldran]

Then I heard wrong.  

[Frak]

Hm, there are no new patch notes.

 

 

They stealthpatched herald out. ;-)