Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[TheWeaver]

Blood mage are very promising at low level when you're spell starving, but I find they don't really scale well. Closer you're from lvl 20, a cipher can cast Brilliant on you and you get same result but without any disavantages. At level 20, multiclassed or not you have plenty of spells, and it's more critical/interesting to get back some specific spells than a random one. Blood magic work like a single tick brilliant inspiration. Great until you can get the inspiration.

 

I don't think the PL bonus from blood magic scale with your level. +1PL at high level feel very low. Have it scale with your wizard PL, or perhaps have a passive (that replace or stack) that give you a PL bonus based on your health pool (bloodied then near death). Closer to death, more powerfull is your magic.

 

I like the notion of your PL growing as you get closer to death.  However, I think the whole mechanic would be better if you didn't just get the spell resource back in exchange for health, but rather you cast the spell in exchange for health.  Then you could make the choice to go out in a blaze of glory casting one of your high level spells which you know will knock you out.

 

But yeah, having a Cipher with Brilliant around is better (but who wants to hang out with those Ciphers and their unnatural powers).

[Takkik]

I like the idea of a toggle that let you cast from health. They could at min give you a blood magic spell for each level. Another possibility, is let blood magic PL bonus stack & refresh. More you sacrifice, more power you get but you loose more health (increase the raw dmg with each stack of blood magic instead of something completly random). Work similar to the new monk curse.

[Boeroer]

I told you Pernicious Cloud will be great once the PEN is fixed.

 

Has anybody tried Kalakoth's Minor Blights with an Arcane Archer? I mean I have, but I forgot to check if the ACC got influenced - was only interested in the AoE behaviour (which is similar to mortars and Blast).

[Clerith]

I like the idea of a toggle that let you cast from health.

Yeah, this is my favorite idea. Let me feel like a proper blood mage - burning my life to fuel my spells. Changes the usual attribute spread (I want Con now too!?), and knowing how much health you're paying is way better than a random loss and one random tier cast gained back. Something like 10 (or maybe even up to 20 with all the -raw damage items around) raw damage taken per spell level.

[Verde]

 

Interesting, but also bad news. AFAIK, Essence Interrupter and Frostseeker are the only ranged weapons that can reliably output a damage type that qualifies for the Arcane Archer’s bonuses.

 

If they are exempt from the class’s perks, the class does bad DPS-wise and is not worth taking over Sharpshooter. It would be a good alternative if you could use a weapon that consistently avoids the penalty and gains the bonuses.

That's the thing, though. I'm not even sure there's a single ranged weapon in the game that Arcane Archer's bonuses will apply to. The two obvious candidates got completely ruled out (assuming this is an intentional design decision rather than a bug), so it's very likely every other ranged unique won't work either.

 

There is one final thing that should probably be tested, but I'm no longer interested enough to do it myself. Would Arcane Archer's bonuses apply to Wizard/Druid elemental spells/shapeshifts? I wouldn't be surprised at this point if it's a no, but it's worth testing.

Hate to say it..but typical Obsidian

[Saito Hikari]

I told you Pernicious Cloud will be great once the PEN is fixed.

 

Has anybody tried Kalakoth's Minor Blights with an Arcane Archer? I mean I have, but I forgot to check if the ACC got influenced - was only interested in the AoE behaviour (which is similar to mortars and Blast).

 

Yes, Kalakoth's Minor Blights will cause Imbue effects to trigger on everything in the AoE. In fact, I've observed something quite odd with Blights and Imbue: Missiles, sometimes it appears that the Imbue: Missiles damage will take on the property of the blight element instead of crush damage.

 

However, that's about the only interesting interaction I can find with Wizard/Arcane Archer multiclass, because as it turns out, their spells are also completely exempt from Arcane Archer's accuracy penalties and bonuses. I now seriously doubt the bonuses even apply to anything but the Imbue abilities at this point, while the penalty will affect the vast majority of weapons in turn.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[AndreaColombo]

That’s most unfortunate, as it makes the Arcane Archer not worth it. A shame; I thought it was one of the most interesting new subclasses.

[Saito Hikari]

That’s most unfortunate, as it makes the Arcane Archer not worth it. A shame; I thought it was one of the most interesting new subclasses.

 

Also, guess what else the penalty applies to?

 

I just discovered that the penalty applies to the Watcher's Mien of Death's Hearld. That's... Thematically questionable. I'm not even sure any other subclass will actually produce any penalties to using the Watcher's unique abilities.

 

In other news, I finally got some attack spells for my Cipher/Arcane Archer multiclass, and I can now safely rule out Arcane Archer's penalties and bonuses applying to any spell effects other than the Imbue abilities. I also went testing several other ranged weapons, and have come to the conclusion that Arcane Archer's penalties will apply to every ranged weapon without an elemental damage component built into it, while those that can inflict elemental damage will be exempt (but won't gain any bonuses).

 

Arcane Archer as it is now actually greatly upsets me from a design standpoint, because not only do its benefits only work on a handful of skills (despite the class description making everyone think otherwise), but it's also simultaneously one of the most restrictive subclasses you can ever take because of its -5 accuracy penalty applying to so many weapons at the same time, you take a major -15% health penalty on top of that, and you can't use the Imbue abilities with melee weapons (obviously).

Edited December 1, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[Logos]

Prima facie, a tactician/psion seems like a slam dunk. The tactician regenerates discipline based off interrupts and flanking, and the psion gets abilities that let you interrupt and flank every x seconds. Given the strictures on tactician it can't solo, and in group play you have to make sure it's your off-tank, not your main tank, but even so, it basically gets to spam warrior abilities the entire fight, considering the regenerative abilities of its power pool. +2 discipline gauntlets are extremely common, and the DoC breastplate will even add 2 more. In any party that has a main tank, this seems to be an extremely powerful combo.

[Kaylon]

Essence Interrupter and Frostseeker work as intended - they don't get any accuracy penalty because they're considered elemental attacks. From the subclass description only the imbued attacks are supposed to get the accuracy bonus from the arcane skill..

[guildwriter]

 

So Debonaire is even worse than I thought.  

• The Cowardice effect kicks in once you are about 2.5 meters away from anyone with a green circle.  That's a pretty short range for such a hefty penalty of -10 Accuracy and -10 to all Defenses.
• Need to test this some more, but I think Rougish Charm does break stealth.
• Rougish Charm does break the moment you damage the charmed target.
• Here's the real kicker.  As a "bonus" the Rougish Charm ability gives the charmed target a random inspiration.  The higher the character level of the Debonaire, the higher the tier.  Not great, but still could be useful to make your charmed guys strong right?  Well here's the thing.  The charm and the inspiration are separate rolls to hit.  Meaning it's entirely possible to miss entirely with the charm effect but still land a positive inspiration on the enemy.  I managed to superpower the bartender of the Wild Mare while never charming him once.  So yes, you can screw yourself over inadvertently with this ability as it is done.

I think this is on track of being one of the worst subclasses if not the worst subclass in the game.

Edited December 1, 2018 by guildwriter

[Saito Hikari]

Essence Interrupter and Frostseeker work as intended - they don't get any accuracy penalty because they're considered elemental attacks. From the subclass description only the imbued attacks are supposed to get the accuracy bonus from the arcane skill..

 

In that case, the subclass description should have clarified that only Imbued attacks work, instead of adding in all the other unnecessary descriptors about it working with fire/frost/electricity/acid/spell damage (and especially considering none of the Imbued spells even inflict electricity damage). That's where all the mass confusion and initial theorycrafting came from.

[Kaylon]

 

Essence Interrupter and Frostseeker work as intended - they don't get any accuracy penalty because they're considered elemental attacks. From the subclass description only the imbued attacks are supposed to get the accuracy bonus from the arcane skill..

 

In that case, the subclass description should have clarified that only Imbued attacks work, instead of adding in all the other unnecessary descriptors about it working with fire/frost/electricity/acid/spell damage (and especially considering none of the Imbued spells even inflict electricity damage). That's where all the mass confusion and initial theorycrafting came from.

 

No, it says just that attacks other than elemental/spells will get an accuracy penalty. The accuracy bonus is mentioned only for the imbued attacks.

[guildwriter]

Didn't see anyone talking about Priest of Woedica, so here are the spell descriptions:
 
1 - Writ of Engagement

3 - Writ of Consumption

5 - Writ of War

7 - Writ of Sorcery

9 - Writ of Mending

I think the most interesting picks are Writ of War and Writ of Sorcery. Pretty sure Helm of the White Void and the +10 Accuracy it gives to checks on inflicting Body/Mind Afflictions will help here. Shutting down all enemy spellcasters for 30+ seconds using a high Int character would really make some fights go smoother. Writ of Mending feels a bit underwhelming for a PL9 except an AoE Enfeeble is pretty rare and could be comboed with other classes to really ensure things stay debuffed.

Overall has potential I think.

 

Favored Disposition: Rational, Cruel

Disfavored Disposition: Benevolent, Diplomatic

Edited December 1, 2018 by guildwriter

[Saito Hikari]

No, it says just that attacks other than elemental/spells will get an accuracy penalty. The accuracy bonus is mentioned only for the imbued attacks.

 

Hm, you're right.

 

Arcane Archer really isn't worth it then. One of the only interesting things about it (the AoE interactions) is going to get taken away soon as well (though arguably rightfully so).

[hansvedic]

Didn't see anyone talking about Priest of Woedica, so here are the spell descriptions:

 

1 - Writ of Engagement

 

 

3 - Writ of Consumption

 

 

5 - Writ of War

 

 

7 - Writ of Sorcery

 

 

9 - Writ of Mending

 

 

 

I think the most interesting picks are Writ of War and Writ of Sorcery. Pretty sure Helm of the White Void and the +10 Accuracy it gives to checks on inflicting Body/Mind Afflictions will help here. Shutting down all enemy spellcasters for 30+ seconds using a high Int character would really make some fights go smoother. Writ of Mending feels a bit underwhelming for a PL9 except an AoE Enfeeble is pretty rare and could be comboed with other classes to really ensure things stay debuffed.

 

Overall has potential I think.

 

Interesting. What dispositions does a Priest of Woedica prefer?

[guildwriter]

Would a Crusader with Fearless and Mental Fortress (resistance to confuse and shaken) still be affected by Tactical Dilema afflictions?

 

No, just tested that.  You get flanked but the afflictions don't show on your card.

[guildwriter]

Interesting. What dispositions does a Priest of Woedica prefer?

 

Favored Disposition: Rational, Cruel

Disfavored Disposition: Benevolent, Diplomatic

[Frog Man]

Just a reminder dudes- these subclasses are in BETA. Not saying they will launch perfectly, but let’s give the devs the time to gather some of this feedback and make tweaks.

 

There’s been a lot of chatter lately about low sales numbers on Deadfire. Patch 4.0 is yet another reason while this team will keep getting my money. Not only do they deliver on an all-timer with Deadfire, here they are still adding significant content to the game. It almost feels like the new subclasses are specifically for all of us super dorks who do multiple playthroughs. Really awesome for them to take care of their die-hards this way.

 

Also J Sawyer is sexy. FIN.

[brasilgringo]

So I've been testing Pernicious Cloud now that it's Pen is at 7 rather than at 0 in the current live version of the game.  Things I've found out: don't pass gas in King's Coffin.

 

 

 

Let's take a look see at ground zero before detonation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guess I really am lactose intolerant!  For reference, this radius is with a Int of 21 and no overseeing effects.  Multi class Assassin/Priest of Skaen.  Level 20.  Let's dive into some numbers.

 

 

 

 

Holy moly.  That is a lot of damage.  This is a good time to mention that the base damage is 9 with the following multipliers (+10% Rogue PL, +27% Might, +5% Infamous Captain).  This is why going to the gym is a good idea if you are going with a DoT focused build.  Note that this ability does benefit from assassinate, though I don't think it influences the penetration of the DoT during its lifetime.  It can overpen as I've seen it tick for 17 on low armor targets.  Casting it again on targets that have the debuff already will refresh the duration.

 

Anyways for 2 Guile that is a hell of a lot of value.  Corrode isn't the most common immune.  I need to test it more but I think it's now well worth the pickup.

 

Just stay away from your party.

 

Cool test!  One thing I've noticed on the beta patch is the increased difficulty of Veteran, at least going through Splintered Reef and Harbinger Watch - there are now a TON of mobs that I don't remember all being there before, and they all attack at once, running over even from farther away on the map.  This has made it hard on my assasin/skaen testing - i'm chugging potions and using withdraw scrolls and moonwell scrolls like no tomorrow.  

 

I may trot out the older Woedica/Monk build that was originally posted when you had to unlock the subclass with a mod.

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/105569-build-woedicahelwalker-contemplative-the-fists-of-vengeance-high-dps-high-cc-melee-caster-hybrid/?hl=woedica

[Enoch]

On Bellowers:

 

I was curious about the PL bonus. First, and most importantly, it's Chanter PL.  So, no real synergy with other classes there.  (I was curious about whether a Cantor would benefit from better Transcendent Suffering.  No dice.) 

 

As to magnitude, with a 6-phrase invocation, you get +3 Chanter PL.  The problem is that it's for a really short duration-- no tooltip breaking it down, but with a 16 INT character it was about 4 seconds.  Given that every invocation has a recovery time of at least 2 secs, base, you'll need to land a Salvations of Time to make anything useful out of it, beyond that one Invoc.  And, really, the invocations that are most PL-sensitive are the direct-damage ones like Eld Nary, which tend to have 3 or 4 sec. recoveries.  Summons, IIRC, scale on character level, not Power Level, so I don't think they would be affected, apart from duration.

 

And, really, does Chanter PL do anything useful outside of Invocations?  I know it doesn't effect phrase linger, or the magnitude of most effects (e.g., Hearts Grew Bold is always +10/+10, at any PL).  Maybe the direct healing and damage phrases would benefit?  But only if they happen to tic within the brief window of the PL boost. 

 

As for the Chant AoE, the ability description says 50% smaller.  The in-gameworld visual indicator certainly looks smaller than I'm used to seeing, but I don't know how to test that. Also, it lacks the visual indication of how much benefit is coming from INT/overseeing.  Could be a bug-- I bet the -50% is calculated alongside INT/Overseeing and the net change is displayed.  IMO, it'd be better if we could still see what change we were getting from INT/Overseeing.

 

Anyhow, I can't say I see much to recommend this at the moment. 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Enoch

[Gromnir]

Didn't see anyone talking about Priest of Woedica, so here are the spell descriptions:

 

(snip)

lack o' discussion is likely due to fact the subclass has been playable via mod for awhile.  woedica priest is not new in same way other subclasses is new. am thinking one o' the other reasons you not see much discussion o' this subclass is a few o' the munchkin inclined build monkeys is hopeful the transcendent suffering + woedica spiritual weapon cheese remains under the radar.  there is a tendency for obsidians to balance obvious op stuff, and such a combo qualifies.

 

as to the subclass itself, the writ spells, particular war and sorcery, is powerful options for a class which does not boast much in the way o' aoe cc and only a few noteworthy debuffs.  as such the woedica writs shore up an arguable class weakness.  but again, the genuine silliness is regarding the subclass spiritual weapon which mind boggling stacks with monk transcendent suffering. a helwalker contemplative o' woedica is silly powerful with either a lightning strikes or swift flurry build. 

 

as an aside, while a woedican forbidden fist contemplative has obvious synergy, it lags behind the helwalker.  with salvation o' time extending buffs comical long while under the influence o' duality of mortal presence/turning wheel, the forbidden fist contemplative will never need fear death, but am not seeing a way to improve on helwalker damage output even when jacking up forbidden fist past 150%.  your forbidden fist retains turning wheel bonuses (which is likely lower as you is burning through wounds,) but it does not benefit from lightning strikes elemental or spiritual weapon raw damage. a rooting pain route for the forbidden fist contemplative might be a superior option to be trying.  

 

curious, when we tested clarity o' agony and minor intercession with forbidden fist curse, the duration o' the negative effects were not diminished while salvation o' time and high intellect extended the duration o' penalties and boon equal.  more curious were how we were able to, under specific conditions, utilize suppress affliction to halt forbidden fist penalties, but benefits were similar suppressed. sure enough, when the suppression elapsed we had a potential sooper-charged fist as we could stack high as long as the wound cost remained 0.  am thinking the suppress affliction bit is a bug.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Verde]

 

So Debonaire is even worse than I thought.

• The Cowardice effect kicks in once you are about 2.5 meters away from anyone with a green circle. That's a pretty short range for such a hefty penalty of -10 Accuracy and -10 to all Defenses.
• Need to test this some more, but I think Rougish Charm does break stealth.
• Rougish Charm does break the moment you damage the charmed target.
• Here's the real kicker. As a "bonus" the Rougish Charm ability gives the charmed target a random inspiration. The higher the character level of the Debonaire, the higher the tier. Not great, but still could be useful to make your charmed guys strong right? Well here's the thing. The charm and the inspiration are separate rolls to hit. Meaning it's entirely possible to miss entirely with the charm effect but still land a positive inspiration on the enemy. I managed to superpower the bartender of the Wild Mare while never charming him once. So yes, you can screw yourself over inadvertently with this ability as it is done.

I think this is on track of being one of the worst subclasses if not the worst subclass in the game.

Lolzy. Good ol Obs. Edited December 2, 2018 by Verde

[guildwriter]

Cool test!  One thing I've noticed on the beta patch is the increased difficulty of Veteran, at least going through Splintered Reef and Harbinger Watch - there are now a TON of mobs that I don't remember all being there before, and they all attack at once, running over even from farther away on the map.  This has made it hard on my assasin/skaen testing - i'm chugging potions and using withdraw scrolls and moonwell scrolls like no tomorrow.  

 

Weird, running splintered reef right now on the beta on upscaled PotD and I'm not seeing any placements that are different.  

 

Sounds like you might be trying to stand and fight too much.  Assassin/Skaen has few things going for it as far as that playstyle.  But even then you shouldn't need that many consumables.  Personally I only use them for specific fights where the odds are way outside my favor.  Try picking off one at a time and dropping combat until you get a sense of how you can take out 3 or more in one pass on an enemy group.

[brasilgringo]

Sounds like you might be trying to stand and fight too much.  Assassin/Skaen has few things going for it as far as that playstyle.  But even then you shouldn't need that many consumables.  Personally I only use them for specific fights where the odds are way outside my favor.  Try picking off one at a time and dropping combat until you get a sense of how you can take out 3 or more in one pass on an enemy group.

 

Are you dropping combat with one of the Smoke Veil powers?  Because shadowing beyond for me doesn't seem to drop combat.  Maybe I have to get really far away with it active. 

 

On Splintered Reef, there must be 15 mobs that all come a running in the dock-area encounter before you get to the castle.  On Harbinger's Watch at the clifftop, by the spirits, attacking would end up calling over all the mobs including from the Bear / Kith camp.  Seemed like a lot more mobs than I remember in either place.