The Political Thread - Burlamaqui edition

[Guard Dog]

 

 

You'd probably need a constitutional convention for that kind of restructuring.

 

As for the 17th amendment... I don't see how making the state legislators pick the Senators would help improve anything, not in this hyperpartisan environment. Plus, you'd have to come up with a solution to the issues that led up to the push for reform and the creation of the 17th amendment in the first place.

 

Sure, it would make them less focused on winning elections and pandering the lowest common denominator, but do you really think the makeup is going to change all that much? If that's what you're thinking. Also, the elections would just put more focus on the state legislature (which in itself, isn't a bad thing) since the makeup of the state legislature determines the Senate.

 

It was a problem in the day because there was far less information and oversight available to the public than there is today. The Senate was supposed the be the representatives of the states, and the House of the people. When the people are electing both the state governments have become marginalized. Furthermore the House has become somewhat marginalized. If the state governments elected the senators then voters would be more focused on their state legislatures (and boy should they be). Off year elections have low turnouts not because they are not important, but because they are seen to be unimportant because state legislatures have lost a lot of the power and influence they are supposed to have.

 

The other problem is with less general voter focus on their state legislatures the zealots end up electing the people do get to serve there.  That leads to offices being held by people who should not BE in office. They eventually find their way into Congress, Cabinet jobs, etc and drag the whole system down. If voters were to care about who is electing their senators that will lead to an improvement in the quality of people in state governments which may lead to an improvement to the quality of people in congress.

 

It would not requite a Constitutional convention (something to be avoided if we want the United States to remain united), just a constitutional amendment. But it would be a really hard sell and most folks would not see the wisdom in it. So it's moot anyway. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Guard Dog

[Chilloutman]

I want to remind everyone what we are talking when we mention SA:

 

[Malcador]

Seems like overly sweeping.

[Amentep]

Seems like both the speaker and the person who protested against her actually don't understand the way science works to me.

 

To use the example the young woman gives of the black magic practitioner, there would be a way to study this in science and either prove it or not.  The young mans response is coming from the conflation of scientific inquiry with skepticism (which is, an admittedly all too common occurrence).

[Chilloutman]

Seems like both the speaker and the person who protested against her actually don't understand the way science works to me.

 

To use the example the young woman gives of the black magic practitioner, there would be a way to study this in science and either prove it or not.  The young mans response is coming from the conflation of scientific inquiry with skepticism (which is, an admittedly all too common occurrence).

 

well whole science is based on scepticism, I think that science have done tons of work already to prove that black magic does not work/exist?

[Amentep]

 

Seems like both the speaker and the person who protested against her actually don't understand the way science works to me.

 

To use the example the young woman gives of the black magic practitioner, there would be a way to study this in science and either prove it or not.  The young mans response is coming from the conflation of scientific inquiry with skepticism (which is, an admittedly all too common occurrence).

 

well whole science is based on scepticism, I think that science have done tons of work already to prove that black magic does not work/exist?

 

 

Skepticism and belief cloud science as you assume that something does/doesn't exist and are potentially biasing your reading of the data to find what you think you should find.  You can use scientific results to be skeptical (and I think that's why science is generally skeptical claims of magical/psychic powers, since no study has demonstrated better than coincidence), but that's a bit different (IMO).

 

But my point is, if you're dealing with someone like the young woman who believes that science is anti-indigenous science or concepts, the way to approach is to get to the core of science.  Talk about observation, collection of data, impartiality, repeatability.  If these very concepts are called into question then there's really no common language that you're speaking.  But if you can agree on that, then maybe you can bring around people to the idea that if there is a correlation between a black magic ceremony and lightning strikes, that science would be able to prove that (just as they have for years tried to verify with mixed to negative results a lot of asian medicine), not that its something 'outside' of science.

[smjjames]

 

 

 

You'd probably need a constitutional convention for that kind of restructuring.

 

As for the 17th amendment... I don't see how making the state legislators pick the Senators would help improve anything, not in this hyperpartisan environment. Plus, you'd have to come up with a solution to the issues that led up to the push for reform and the creation of the 17th amendment in the first place.

 

Sure, it would make them less focused on winning elections and pandering the lowest common denominator, but do you really think the makeup is going to change all that much? If that's what you're thinking. Also, the elections would just put more focus on the state legislature (which in itself, isn't a bad thing) since the makeup of the state legislature determines the Senate.

 

It was a problem in the day because there was far less information and oversight available to the public than there is today. The Senate was supposed the be the representatives of the states, and the House of the people. When the people are electing both the state governments have become marginalized. Furthermore the House has become somewhat marginalized. If the state governments elected the senators then voters would be more focused on their state legislatures (and boy should they be). Off year elections have low turnouts not because they are not important, but because they are seen to be unimportant because state legislatures have lost a lot of the power and influence they are supposed to have.

 

The other problem is with less general voter focus on their state legislatures the zealots end up electing the people do get to serve there.  That leads to offices being held by people who should not BE in office. They eventually find their way into Congress, Cabinet jobs, etc and drag the whole system down. If voters were to care about who is electing their senators that will lead to an improvement in the quality of people in state governments which may lead to an improvement to the quality of people in congress.

 

It would not requite a Constitutional convention (something to be avoided if we want the United States to remain united), just a constitutional amendment. But it would be a really hard sell and most folks would not see the wisdom in it. So it's moot anyway. 

 

 

True, politics has gotten nationalized to the point where even the local races are having trouble running on local issues. Trump is partly to blame for sucking all the oxygen, but it's a proccess that's been happening well before him.

[213374U]

Seems like both the speaker and the person who protested against her actually don't understand the way science works to me.

 

To use the example the young woman gives of the black magic practitioner, there would be a way to study this in science and either prove it or not.  The young mans response is coming from the conflation of scientific inquiry with skepticism (which is, an admittedly all too common occurrence).

 

Because someone says that "ritual x causes lightning strikes remotely" is not really a thing that happens that person doesn't understand science? Sorry, but it would have to be the woman who says it happens who provided the evidence that her extremely unlikely and fringe position is not to be immediately laughed out of the room.

 

We simply do not have unlimited resources and time to conduct studies and build experiments to debunk every bull**** claim that people come up with. So we use skepticism based on our current understanding of the world to vet things that may be worth pursuing to expand the current boundaries of our knowledge, and throw out dark ages-era superstition and intellectual cul-de-sacs.

 

Good luck persuading the MIT council or whatever to grant you funding to study the supernatural effects of voodoo. When they give you a raised eyebrow as a reply, go ahead and explain to them that they don't really "understand science". Wait, that actually sounds like it could make you a fat stack of YT monies, if nothing else.

[Amentep]

Was the MIT Council secretly at the meeting that was in that video and I missed it?

 

Given that there have been scientific inquiries into tribal magic, voodoo, acupuncture, etc. etc., its not like science can't be (or hasn't been) used to investigate these things.  To my mind the guy would have been better off trying to convince the lady that the scientific method was culturally neutral and if she followed the scientific method and was able to demonstrate the claim she made that it'd be open for repetition and eventual acceptance if everyone followed the scientific method.  And that was my point.

 

YMMV.

[smjjames]

Was the MIT Council secretly at the meeting that was in that video and I missed it?

 

Given that there have been scientific inquiries into tribal magic, voodoo, acupuncture, etc. etc., its not like science can't be (or hasn't been) used to investigate these things.  To my mind the guy would have been better off trying to convince the lady that the scientific method was culturally neutral and if she followed the scientific method and was able to demonstrate the claim she made that it'd be open for repetition and eventual acceptance if everyone followed the scientific method.  And that was my point.

 

YMMV.

 

It wouldn't be hard to observe that certain clouds tend to produce lightning and make a voodoo ritual for that. Also, lightning strikes somewhere on Earth every day, so, if they want to split hairs that way....

 

And yeah, there have been studies from an anthropological point of view, if not a strictly scientific point of view.

[Gfted1]

Welp, I guess it time to go back to raping and/or murdering; albinos, virgins, and babies to cure HIV.

 

Aside I would very much like to become educated and trained in the mystic arts. And yes, I would abuse it for personal gain.

[213374U]

Was the MIT Council secretly at the meeting that was in that video and I missed it?

 

Given that there have been scientific inquiries into tribal magic, voodoo, acupuncture, etc. etc., its not like science can't be (or hasn't been) used to investigate these things.  To my mind the guy would have been better off trying to convince the lady that the scientific method was culturally neutral and if she followed the scientific method and was able to demonstrate the claim she made that it'd be open for repetition and eventual acceptance if everyone followed the scientific method.  And that was my point.

 

YMMV.

 

Does the MIT council hold exclusive authority to declare that unscientific claims are... unscientific? And therefore worthless in a scientific context.

 

Any and all scientific inquiries into the supernatural have, unsurprisingly, delivered inconclusive results. Science by definition cannot disprove phenomena that are outside of the natural world (i.e. supernatural), which means this kind of hogwash can never truly be put to rest using science. It also takes common sense, but as we all know, that's the least common of all senses.

 

What you are suggesting is that the guy should have tried to protect the woman's fee-fees by explaining to her the foundations of science rather than just going "lol no". Any such explanations are doomed to fail because, by her own admission, she did science in HS which is where this would have been explained to her—she simply chooses to disregard that because muh colonialism. Someone who has no understanding of how the scientific process works or even what it is concerned with (or deliberately rejects such concepts) has no business making statements about the need for "decolonizing science" so that it accommodates magical thinking of all things.

 

You should, in general, not pontificate about things you have no knowledge of, and expect people not to laugh at you just because you are <minority>. Because if that was just some meshback in the deep US instead, the video would be comedy gold with Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel's theme as soundtrack. Fools have no right to be suffered and waste everyone's time.

Edited December 5, 2018 by 213374U

[Chilloutman]

are we really have to debate if black magic needs to be debunked on universities in this time? Well maybe we deserve to extinct, no surprise that dams in SA falling apart, which was my original point

Edited December 5, 2018 by Chilloutman

[Amentep]

[

Does the MIT council hold exclusive authority to declare that unscientific claims are... unscientific? And therefore worthless in a scientific context.

 

Any and all scientific inquiries into the supernatural have, unsurprisingly, delivered inconclusive results. Science by definition cannot disprove phenomena that are outside of the natural world (i.e. supernatural), which means this kind of hogwash can never truly be put to rest using science. It also takes common sense, but as we all know, that's the least common of all senses.

 

What you are suggesting is that the guy should have tried to protect the woman's fee-fees by explaining to her the foundations of science rather than just going "lol no". Any such explanations are doomed to fail because, by her own admission, she did science in HS which is where this would have been explained to her—she simply chooses to disregard that because muh colonialism. Someone who has no understanding of how the scientific process works or even what it is concerned with (or deliberately rejects such concepts) has no business making statements about the need for "decolonizing science" so that it accommodates magical thinking of all things.

 

You should, in general, not pontificate about things you have no knowledge of, and expect people not to laugh at you just because you are . Because if that was just some white meshback in the deep US instead, the video would be comedy gold with Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel's theme as soundtrack. Fools have no right to be suffered and waste everyone's time.

 

You brought up the MIT council, not me, I was only pointing out that I didn't find them relevant, but I think you took my point in a different way than I intended.

 

I'd disagree that scientific inquiry into the 'supernatural' delivers inconclusive results.  We've seen studies of psychic phenomenon generally conclude that there's generally no better than random guessing in the correlation.  Studies of Accupuncture have generally shown it doesn't work or doesn't work any better than other placebos.  Anthroplogical studies of voodoo have turned into chemical/medical examinations of drugs that were used that could result in some of the claims around the 'magic'.

 

And while I agree that the "decolonization of science" (whatever that's supposed to mean) is silly, at that time, and at that space, the guy could have made a better argument rather than allow the anti-sciencers the ability to shut him down and use him as an example of "western science" being against indigenous science/belief.  Which is why I said he didn't understand science (or perhaps, he underestimated his audience's adherence to anti-science, I suppose, I have the benefit of hindsight that he, in the moment, did not).

 

 

are we really have to debate if black magic needs to be debunked on universities in this time? Well maybe we deserve to extinct

 

I'm not sure your point since there have been academic studies on magic, psychic powers and alchemy (to name a few) over the years.   But (IMO) in a world that is becoming increasing anti-science, science needs to step up in demonstrating how science works and how it works objectively, not subjectively.  And if that means having undergraduate students in Cape Town apply the scientific method to black magic...where exactly is the problem for the world if they can learn that science isn't something to be rejected because its from 'the west'?

[BruceVC]

I want to remind everyone what we are talking when we mention SA:

 

These students represent a very irritating and misplaced small group that were part of the " Fees must Fall " movement  that really disrupted life in Universities from 2015-2016, they dont represent most students and the entire movement was an  epic fail that just added to our tax  and egregious government debt. Of course some them have the audacity to think they made a real social stand against " evil ,colonial, Western, anti-poor,  Capitalist , Neo-colonial  ....etc.  " Universities and the actual subjects taught at Universities. Most of them were utterly entitled, vacuous and attention seeking ...and yes these types of discussions were just embarrassing 

 

We would never have been able to behave like that in University, we would have been expelled almost immediately for behaving even slightly like some of these students behaved 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FeesMustFall

 

Honestly they has as much real relevancy as Occupy Wall Street , in other words " down with the banks " but provided no meaningful alternative 

 

Most of the hardcore leaders were jailed for numerous crimes 

 

https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/feesmustfall-activists-still-on-trial-20180217

 

 

They dont represent the intellectual capacity of South Africa or how most people behave who graduate and go on to become good and constructive citizens 

 

Oh and the students in the video weren't even studying science which just made it more cringe worthy 

Edited December 5, 2018 by BruceVC

[HoonDing]

so how's the white genocide coming along over there

[Chilloutman]

 

are we really have to debate if black magic needs to be debunked on universities in this time? Well maybe we deserve to extinct

 

I'm not sure your point since there have been academic studies on magic, psychic powers and alchemy (to name a few) over the years.   But (IMO) in a world that is becoming increasing anti-science, science needs to step up in demonstrating how science works and how it works objectively, not subjectively.  And if that means having undergraduate students in Cape Town apply the scientific method to black magic...where exactly is the problem for the world if they can learn that science isn't something to be rejected because its from 'the west'?

 

We debunked it hundreds of years ago, no point of beating a dead horse, world is not becoming increasingly anti-science, only for some reason dumb people starting to have more space in universities and/or public spaces.

 

[BruceVC]

so how's the white genocide coming along over there

 

There is no such thing, I am very disappointed with the small groups of white farmers who are perpetuating this completely spurious  form of propaganda

 

Yes there are unacceptable killings of farmers but there are murders that impact all South Africans,  I promise you myself and most white people I know  would be the first  to immigrate if there was a deliberate attempt to annihilate the white race in South Africa 

 

Our new president who is really trying to fix the economic and political  damage done by the previous president, Jacob Zuma, has addressed this. In summary "there are killings of white farmers but its not state sponsored or deliberate, its criminal activity that all South Africans have to contend with " 

 

 

 

https://www.news24.com/Analysis/ramaphosas-killings-of-white-farmers-comment-what-the-president-meant-20180927

 

 

And then Trump got involved which just made things more complicated and divisive 

 

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/08/23/dangerous-myth-white-genocide-south-africa

[Chilloutman]

 

I want to remind everyone what we are talking when we mention SA:

 

These students represent a very irritating and misplaced small group that were part of the " Fees must Fall " movement  that really disrupted life in Universities from 2015-2016, they dont represent most students and the entire movement was an  epic fail that just added to our tax  and egregious government debt. Of course some them have the audacity to think they made a real social stand against " evil ,colonial, Western, anti-poor,  Capitalist , Neo-colonial  ....etc.  " Universities and the actual subjects taught at Universities. Most of them were utterly entitled, vacuous and attention seeking ...and yes these types of discussions were just embarrassing

 

I don't want to argue over this, I think that state of your infrastructure speak for itself

[213374U]

I'd disagree that scientific inquiry into the 'supernatural' delivers inconclusive results.  We've seen studies of psychic phenomenon generally conclude that there's generally no better than random guessing in the correlation.  Studies of Accupuncture have generally shown it doesn't work or doesn't work any better than other placebos.  Anthroplogical studies of voodoo have turned into chemical/medical examinations of drugs that were used that could result in some of the claims around the 'magic'.

 

And while I agree that the "decolonization of science" (whatever that's supposed to mean) is silly, at that time, and at that space, the guy could have made a better argument rather than allow the anti-sciencers the ability to shut him down and use him as an example of "western science" being against indigenous science/belief.  Which is why I said he didn't understand science (or perhaps, he underestimated his audience's adherence to anti-science, I suppose, I have the benefit of hindsight that he, in the moment, did not).

The results are inconclusive because "not statistically significant" does not mean "strictly false". In a scientific context this may be more or less interchangeable with "functionally false", but epistemologically it is not. Typically science does not do impossibility proofs because they are hard(er) and scientists get better mileage out of affirmative results.

 

Yeah, if the guy had gone the route of explaining the basics he might not have been instantaneously shouted down, but I don't think there's a chance in hell he wouldn't have been otherwise silenced as merely a proponent of "western" science because it (and by extension, he) is closing the door to magical thinking.

[Amentep]

We debunked it hundreds of years ago, no point of beating a dead horse, world is not becoming increasingly anti-science, only for some reason dumb people starting to have more space in universities and/or public spaces.

 

Whether you classify them as anti-science or just dumb, they don't seem to be going away, but increasing in my experience.

 

Given that studies on the younger generation indicate they trust friends, relatives and online 'influencers' they "trust", I worry that those in science fields (and in academics in general) aren't doing enough to break the echo chamber of people who dismiss science affirming one another. 

 

The results are inconclusive because "not statistically significant" does not mean "strictly false". In a scientific context this may be more or less interchangeable with "functionally false", but epistemologically it is not. Typically science does not do impossibility proofs because they are hard(er) and scientists get better mileage out of affirmative results.

 

Yeah, if the guy had gone the route of explaining the basics he might not have been instantaneously shouted down, but I don't think there's a chance in hell he wouldn't have been otherwise silenced as merely a proponent of "western" science because it (and by extension, he) is closing the door to magical thinking.

 

I get what you're saying, but I think with this group "outcomes no better than random chance" is better than nothing.

 

While you're right they probably would have still tried to shut him down, or moved the goal posts or any other type of logical fallacy, at least he wouldn't have handed them on a silver platter their "proof" that 'western' science rejected indigenous ideas.

[smjjames]

 

 

are we really have to debate if black magic needs to be debunked on universities in this time? Well maybe we deserve to extinct

 

I'm not sure your point since there have been academic studies on magic, psychic powers and alchemy (to name a few) over the years.   But (IMO) in a world that is becoming increasing anti-science, science needs to step up in demonstrating how science works and how it works objectively, not subjectively.  And if that means having undergraduate students in Cape Town apply the scientific method to black magic...where exactly is the problem for the world if they can learn that science isn't something to be rejected because its from 'the west'?

 

We debunked it hundreds of years ago, no point of beating a dead horse, world is not becoming increasingly anti-science, only for some reason dumb people starting to have more space in universities and/or public spaces.

 

 

 

Are you sure it's totally debunked? because organized religion and miracles and god and whatnot.

[majestic]

It might not be becoming increasingly anti-science but it sure feels like the world is becoming more and more pro-magic. We recently had a nice scandal where city funded hospital paid 95k € for... eh, well, it pains me to write this, for a circle of protection against negative energy to be laid down. Just let that sink in for a bit here. The dude just walked around the building once with his dowsing rod.

 

The hilarity doesn't end, because shortly after this was discovered and made news the Association of Human Energy Practioners* (they're actually part of the Federal Economic Chamber, subsection Personal Services get that) showed up and denounced the energy practitioner that laid down the circle as a fraud, with one of its members actually stating in an interview that he went to the building and immediately noticed that there isn't any protection circle and that they would have only charged 150€ per hour for the same work and their protection circle would actually work.

 

Another gave an interview stating that it saddens him that actions such as this make his entire trade look disreputable. Because obviously it isn't disreputable when you sell dew collected from flowers for 1000€ per liter to go along with a 150€ hour of faith healing.

 

The Federal Economic Chamber even offers quality assurance courses where you can get bronze, silver and gold certificates to show off. They're also purely designed to make money because all you do is an online course and a quiz the end, and each is more expensive than the one before. But I guess that's okay because it's the frauds that have to shell out the cash.

 

*The description of the trade is literally the study and application of the scientifically currently not observable ubiquitous energy field that surrounds and links us all. Does that read like the Force to you? Because it sure does. So I guess we actually have official Jedi healers.

Edited December 5, 2018 by majestic

[Malcador]

The foul influences of the Warp grow ever stronger...

[Guard Dog]

That's it. I'm quitting my job and getting onto the business of sales and installation of Circles of Protection from Negative Energy. That's where the money is at!

 

Soooo.... can i interest anyone in a Circle of Protection of Negative Energy? Guaranteed to work ​unless negative entity makes successful save versus death with a -2 penalty. All sales are final.