Finally finished the game...I'm... confused :D

[Verde]

I must disagree, that writing quality is worse in Deadfire. In part, because it is such a vague criticism. How is it worse exactly?

 

Thing I can criticise about Deadfire is a lack of focus and proper pay off. We spend majority of time interacting with actions, but there is fairly little pay off of siding with one. Eothas seems like a thing game would focus on, yet he gets little screen time and development. Are those writing issues? I really dont think so. Is it writers decision what areas and quest make into the game? Do they have much influence over how much time and resources are devoted to individual areas? How much influence did they have over how companions were designed system wise?

 

It seems like its more of an issue of overall narrative design, possibly clashing with other design goals. Cerainly, PoE1 was more writer friendly - with less dynamic companions, a more linear story - individual design elements which make it easier for writers to create more traditional arcs. I would guess that a lot of changes and restrictions made to Deadfire made writer's job more difficult. The end result might not be fully satisfying, but did writers did a piss poor job? I don't think so - story arcs are still there, carefully planted, themes and setups thoughtfully interwine throughout the whole game, factions are really well explored and develop, each's ideology and cultural background finding reflections in various character which represent those factions.

 

I don't know how hiring more writers would help Deadfire in any way. It's not like it lacks writing - it's just overall structure and direction doesn't quite work, even though there quite great individual things about it.

 

Frankly, Gods are fine. They didn't change since the first game. Set up for whatever comes next is exciting - I just wish we got to it in Deadfire.

The Gods didnt change from the first game? They never appeared in the first game at all. And now they are roundtables teenagers who speak in generalities. So yes, they completely changed, and for the worse. Edited November 1, 2018 by Verde

[Wormerine]

The Gods didnt change from the first game? They never appeared in the first game at all. And now they are roundtables teenagers who speak in generalities. So yes, they completely changed, and for the worse.

If they never appeared in the first game (not quite true, but PC didn't see them interact with each other) than they didn't change. Their behaviour in Deadfire is quite in harmony with their previous behaviour pattern.

[house2fly]

 

 

Well the writing in the first was considerably better, so it's a fair assumption that the voice overs hurt the writing.

 

I think the voice acting is actually pretty good but then writing isn't.

The two things aren't related. It's like saying the enchanting system was changed in Deadfire and that's why the writing is worse. Or you sail around in a boat instead of walking on foot, which hurts the writing.

 

Maybe what changed isn't the number of writers, but who the writers were.

You think the writing of the dialogue and the voicing of the dialogue isn't related?

 

Your last pt is fair and I've considered it. But my pt still stands - no game is created on an infinite budget. The time, energy, and money should have been spent on better writers, editing, and branching dialogue. It's simply subpar compared to most of the other aspects of the game. And by removing VOs in all instances, it allows the writers to write more without the fear and having to record everything.

 

No game is made on an infinite budget, but in this case the budget was increased specifically for the VO. If there wasn't VO that budget increase wouldn't have gone to the writing, it just wouldn't have happened.

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if it were fully 2d without any voice acting, I'd still sit down and play this thing. 

 

To me Deadfire is a product of conflicting priorities. It has covered it's tracks well, but I can see the steps in the mud still. 

[Verde]

 

The Gods didnt change from the first game? They never appeared in the first game at all. And now they are roundtables teenagers who speak in generalities. So yes, they completely changed, and for the worse.

If they never appeared in the first game (not quite true, but PC didn't see them interact with each other) than they didn't change. Their behaviour in Deadfire is quite in harmony with their previous behaviour pattern.

Explain to me where you not only interacted with the Gods directly in PoE1, but met them in person? It was handled more subtlety, where we learned about them through lore like modern religion. It was handed tremendously better imho. Saying something like "let's throw the moon at Eothos" but then needing the Watcher to do all their dirty work is terrible writing and consistency. Plus the conversations have no bearing whatsoever on the gameplay or endings, simply one single line you say to Eothos at the end.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Verde

[Verde]

 

 

 

Well the writing in the first was considerably better, so it's a fair assumption that the voice overs hurt the writing.

 

I think the voice acting is actually pretty good but then writing isn't.

The two things aren't related. It's like saying the enchanting system was changed in Deadfire and that's why the writing is worse. Or you sail around in a boat instead of walking on foot, which hurts the writing.

 

Maybe what changed isn't the number of writers, but who the writers were.

You think the writing of the dialogue and the voicing of the dialogue isn't related?

 

Your last pt is fair and I've considered it. But my pt still stands - no game is created on an infinite budget. The time, energy, and money should have been spent on better writers, editing, and branching dialogue. It's simply subpar compared to most of the other aspects of the game. And by removing VOs in all instances, it allows the writers to write more without the fear and having to record everything.

No game is made on an infinite budget, but in this case the budget was increased specifically for the VO. If there wasn't VO that budget increase wouldn't have gone to the writing, it just wouldn't have happened.

Provide evidence of this.

 

Furthermore you have not addressed your erroneous statement that the writing and VO is not connected. Do you think writers hand off scripts to VOs with no coordination? Any media with both have them work together, whether movies, shows, or games. Round table readings, input, etc. Makes no sense otherwise. They are not silo'd.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Verde

[house2fly]

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/172965284706/ok-more-serious-question-how-are-you-going-to

 

"The decision to do this amount of VO was made at the owner level and was made after most of the writing had already been done." Ie late in development. It wasn't something they committed to during the figstarter, which means using money from the figstarter would take away from money for things they did commit to. It isn't reasonable to conclude they used that money.

 

The fact that the decision to do full VO was made after most of the writing was done also means that, while the writing may have affected the voice acting, the voice acting largely didn't affect the writing.

Edited November 3, 2018 by house2fly

[Verde]

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/172965284706/ok-more-serious-question-how-are-you-going-to

 

"The decision to do this amount of VO was made at the owner level and was made after most of the writing had already been done." Ie late in development. It wasn't something they committed to during the figstarter, which means using money from the figstarter would take away from money for things they did commit to. It isn't reasonable to conclude they used that money.

 

The fact that the decision to do full VO was made after most of the writing was done also means that, while the writing may have affected the voice acting, the voice acting largely didn't affect the writing.

Good find. You've proven me wrong good sir.

[rone]

 

The writers didn't do the voice overs themselves, they hired voice actors

Yes, and that's why the writing suffered. Budget for voice actors and less dialogue.

 

 

No, the full voice acing was a stretch goal.

[Verde]

 

 

The writers didn't do the voice overs themselves, they hired voice actors

Yes, and that's why the writing suffered. Budget for voice actors and less dialogue.

No, the full voice acing was a stretch goal.

Yep house2fly proved that above.

[house2fly]

Well, "more voice acting" was a stretch goal; they upped it to full VO later in development.

 

Anyway, I'm certainly not about to disagree the writing suffered in general

[misterjimmy]

I don't think my action can change deadfire archipelago. Even if my watcher were born in the Deadfire,  I felt I'm just an outsider after ending game.Especially The Watcher can't decide the fate of The Wheel because the main story writer try to forced the player must accept Eothas's plan and you can't stop him.  No final boss and dungeon. advertisement created the wrong expectations since I didn't have any combat encounter with Eothas. That why most player very dissapointed about it.

Edited November 16, 2018 by misterjimmy

[house2fly]

You don't have to accept Eothas's plan, and you can try to stop him

[AndreaColombo]

IIRC you can also convince him to destroy the Wheel instead of breaking it, thus ending all life on Eora. Which is totally what I'm going for next time I play.

[Mallard]

 

IIRC you can also convince him to destroy the Wheel instead of breaking it, thus ending all life on Eora. Which is totally what I'm going for next time I play.

 

There are at least two endings (actual endings at the end of the game) that could not be imported into a Pillars 3. What will they do for those players, if they do make a third game?

 

For Pillars 1, I can only think of one ending (actual ending at the end of the game) that didn't make sense for importing, the one in which the Eyeless destroy everything. Sawyer confirmed that they retconned that ending if you imported such a save.

 

(You could of course die in either game, kill Lady Webb in Pillars 1, or reject Berath's offer at the start of Deadfire, but I don't think anyone expected those to be imported...)

[house2fly]

Isn't "Eothas destroys the world" the only one that wouldn't be importable?

[InsaneCommander]

 

IIRC you can also convince him to destroy the Wheel instead of breaking it, thus ending all life on Eora. Which is totally what I'm going for next time I play.

 

There are at least two endings (actual endings at the end of the game) that could not be imported into a Pillars 3. What will they do for those players, if they do make a third game?

 

For Pillars 1, I can only think of one ending (actual ending at the end of the game) that didn't make sense for importing, the one in which the Eyeless destroy everything. Sawyer confirmed that they retconned that ending if you imported such a save.

 

(You could of course die in either game, kill Lady Webb in Pillars 1, or reject Berath's offer at the start of Deadfire, but I don't think anyone expected those to be imported...)

 

Just pretend there was another ending and the Watcher had a nightmare.

 

It would have been nice if there was more reactivity from the PoE1 end. For example: if you empowered Woedica, she could stop Eothas and the Wheel would only suffer minor damage.

 

But who knows what will be the story in PoE3...

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

I think that Josh Sawyer used the analogy of a dammed river.

 

The rebirth cycle of souls (river) flows naturally, but the Engwithans constructed the Wheel (dam) to regulate the flow.

 

Specifically, the Wheel (dam) redirects some of the flow to feed/empower the Gods.

 

Destroying the Wheel (dam) cuts off the flow to the Gods. What this means for the Gods' future existence is unclear.

 

Personally, I would love to see an "extended cut" like for Mass Effect 3, that helped clarify the ending and fleshed out Act 4...

Im just thinking. How the fk did sawyer talk himself out of including the dammed river explanation ingame? Its a fairly quick and elegant way of explaining the situation and game would have benefited greatly from it.

 

Think this instance of editing way too closely and second guessing urself too much. I guess sawyer wouldnt be sawyer if he wasnt inclined to do such, but eh. Feel this example of a worthwile tendency becoming counter-productive.

 

As for peeps not being happy with the gods and putting it down to writing quality i feel we're missing a couple of major things.

 

Like what are the big changes from poe1-2 godwise?

 

1. Gods now talk to each other instead of just u.

 

2. Gods now have physical appearances.

 

Feel issues peeps had with gods in deadfire wouldve been solved by not making those two design changes.

 

At most, seeing berath, eothas and rymrgand wouldve been fine. We didnt have to see the rest. We shouldnt have been able to see wael anyhoo, lol.

 

Putting it down to nebulous notion of writing quality not constructive imo. Execution by narrative designers less of an issue than concept.

 

Communication with gods shouldve been like poe1, one-on-one with no illustration to maintain mystery.

 

Id have replaced those big round table cutscenes where u get summoned via chime. Instead id have had ur soul being drawn back to the starting area with the pallid knight.

 

beraths the entity thats enlisted u. Makes sense for berath to be ur contact amongst the gods.

 

Id bet money that this wouldve been more effective. It would have been cheaper as well cos less work for artists and narrative designers. Also wouldve taken up less time in game and it wouldve allowed the watcher to develop a deeper relationship with just berath - really flesh out that god as a character.

 

But eh instead of taking easy route, obs have to try too hard.

 

Thats my armchair assessment as someone whos never done crpg narrative design anyhoo.

[house2fly]

In one god conversation Berath uses the metaphor of a reservoir that empties because it doesn't rain any more, but that's a skippable dialogue option iirc

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Ye and not as eloquent as dammed river metaphor imo. soon as josh posted that it made perfect sense.

[Cartoons Plural]

this thread is great because when the first game came out most of the people with no avatar were complaining about

 

*partial voice acting being non immersive

*not being able to see what the gods looked like

*writing was too dark/figurative/confusing "bad" etc

*text vomit or whatever internet euphemism is clever for "a full paragraph appeared on my screen and it upset me"

 

every change complained about here is the reaction to that criticism, almost like they were playing a joke since i mean how could you expect anything else

 

i mean i feel like dragon age origins has more plot holes and bad writing & acting but that seems to be overwhelmingly positive

Edited November 28, 2018 by Cartoons Plural

[nivodeus]

I think the real Old Gods do exist, i mean the Ukaizo Kingdom believe in Gods even before the Engwithan came and created the Wheels. The current Gods are more like a perversion of it maybe. I feel like they are more like an organic Soul-AI / Steward of Souls (why did the Engwithans make many of it I dont know), or maybe they just have God Complex and want to control the world / Eora, much like a type 1 Civilisation would, a full control of one own Planet and possibly star system. 

 

And for Eora, Soul is what Thermodynamic Law to us, meaning controlling soul means you can control all aspect of life, such as Lights (Eothas), Water/Weather (Ondra), Temperature/Heat/Entropy (Magran/Rymrgard), Growth (Gamlawain/Hylea) and so on. 

 

We have seen people can even manipulate soul, people like Lengrath, to somehow retain memories after death , and that being making you wiser and wiser each cycle, like eternal library. 

It would be nice maybe that the plot of PoE 3 would be this real Old Gods (maybe not many, maybe only God, as mentioned by Rekke) finally making an appearance and finally takes control of this mess. 

[Wormerine]

I think the real Old Gods do exist, i mean the Ukaizo Kingdom believe in Gods even before the Engwithan came and created the Wheels. The current Gods are more like a perversion of it maybe. I feel like they are more like an organic Soul-AI / Steward of Souls (why did the Engwithans make many of it I dont know), or maybe they just have God Complex and want to control the world / Eora, much like a type 1 Civilisation would, a full control of one own Planet and possibly star system.

 

There is proof to support that theory. Yes, Kith worshiped various god's before Engwith created "real" gods. It's not new, it's what Thaos said in the first place. "If God didn't exist, we would have to invent him". Engwith discovered that the God indeed didn't exist so they created them.

 

More importantly, adding "actual god's" into Eora would undermine the unique concept of PoE and go against the universe in the first place - it would take away the uncertainty of its inhabitants, which other fantasy settings (like D&D) lack as it is known who the gods are, what they want from you, what awaits you after death. Deadfire and DLCs try to undermine even what we know already suggesting that we can't trust all that we read.

 

No, if PoE3 happen I wouldn't expect the twist that it is a conventional setting after all. Especially that your concept would simply turn Gods and Engwith into straight up villains, who usurp godly power for their glory only.