Did Beast of Winter have a different narrative designer to the main game?

[Taevyr]

Also, Kirsch wrote Nemnok, which automatically earns him the unconditional love of this entire forum.

[bigbazoopa]

What... somebody else thinks that an open world is not the best thing for this game?... 

 

Now I am not a lonely heretic anymore xD.

 

Is deadfire an open world game?

 

Doesnt open world mean a game with hardly any map loading?

 

Deadfire has hundreds of maps that you need to load to get into and out of areas.

 

Skyrim, farcry ect are my idea of open world

[Boeroer]

Nemnok would have been a great main antagonist. All the hints and fluff around him (books that talk about the nature of imps and the like). A shame he was "wasted" in a side quest.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Boeroer

[Taevyr]

Nemnok would have been a great main antagonist. All the hints and fluff around him (books that talk about the nature of imps and the like). A shame he was "wasted" in a side quest.

They're just building him up for PoE3 where, after months of suckling on the essence of the Watcher and the souls following him, he usurps the place of Yezuha's god and launches a "crusade for shinies" on the rest of Eora.

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

Nemnok would have been a great main antagonist. 

 

He's too flat and one-dimensional to be a main antagonist, I think. Nemnok and Co. would make a great faction instead, no?

 

Something like, we don't really know where Eothas is going. Now we have to gather information about ancient Engwithan sites of Huge Adra and we must inquire after all the different factions. Thus we come across yours truly. 

 

Come to think of it... the circle of Magi would make a great faction in this, as well. 

[Boeroer]

Since imps seem to keep on evolving as long as they can absorb arcane knowledge and stuff a really powerful, smart and old Nemnok would easily be a nice main antagonist. At least for a DLC.

[Heathsunderer]

I've just finished BoW and am busy playing through SSS, so allow me to add my 2 cents. I think each of the expansions accomplishes what it sets out to do marvelously. BoW has a great story (I love Vatnir), and SSS has some great combat (although the story is a little sleep-inducing). The last one is supposed to be about moral choices if memory serves, so I'm looking forward to seeing what they'll do with that.

 

I think the writers behind the original Deadfire were very talented. You need only look at some of the individual lines/accents/characters to see that. But apart from the lousy god-theme, I think that Deadfire's story was killed by its open world. A smaller, tighter world like BoW would have allowed for a much better story, and without the ridiculously complex relationship system.

 

Open world and good narratives just don't go together.

This much is true. Open-world games struggle to come up with a consistent and unbroken narrative since side quests sweep the main plot aside making the player pay less heed to what is meant to be the meat and potatoes of the game's story. In theory, a remedy to this plague would be to tie the side quests into your main objective either by dumping lots of lore or shedding new light on recurring themes in the main quest line. Just so the player doesn't shake their head in disappointment after wrapping up a side quest and curse the developers for wasting their time fetching a worthless item for an ill-spoken NPC who seems out of place in the game's world.

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

Since imps seem to keep on evolving as long as they can absorb arcane knowledge and stuff a really powerful, smart and old Nemnok would easily be a nice main antagonist. At least for a DLC.

 

Not that I disagree, but I'd prefer him to be a bit more self-aware and conscious. He really comes across as a grandomaniac, one that never expects to be defeated, and that never ties too well with neither smart, nor old. And makes for rather boring villains, too. 

 

Or did you mean that this trait allows Nemnok to have vastly different combat mechanics? I really wouldn't mind that, too, you know . 

[Verde]

So what you're saying is...

 

 

 

 

Nemnok is pulling the strings?

Edited October 6, 2018 by Verde

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

So what you're saying is...

 

 

 

 

Nemnok is pulling the strings?

 

I don't know who you're talking to, but I'd very much like Nemnok to be pulling the strings, yeah x). 

[Verde]

I'm talking to whoever will listen:p

[kmbogd]

Yeah, I also find the work of Paul Kirsch among the most memorable from Deadfire. I hope that he will be allowed to have even more influence in future installments.  

[Purudaya]

Apparently Alex Scokel was lead narrative designer for both BoW and SSS, while Paul Kirsch wrote most of the side content like side quests, item/bestiary descriptions and such, and notably wrote the Waidwen area. While I don't know what Scokel wrote in the basegame, a list of Kirsch's work can be found here, which shows his own skill quite well in my opinion.

 

Considering their track record thus far, PoE3 may be better of if the two of them along with Fenstermaker take the lead of the narrative next time. Josh is a great designer of mechanics and world building, but the way Pallegina and Deadfire's gods got screwed is just painful.

 

As for Open World, it's lingering Skyrim syndrome: DA:I got it, several other games got it, and most, if not all, suffered for it. Going back to a PoE1-style "open" world wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

I'm actually really glad Josh Sawyer is taking a step back. It was great that he helped bring back isometric CRPGs, but he also seems to have a - disdain is probably too strong a word - disinterest in genre mainstays and an overwillingness to subvert narrative expectations in ways that don't actually translate to better storytelling. I'm not one of the types who insist that PoE has to mirror BG2 in every way, but I don't want to play Fallout: NV in an isometric fantasy setting either. BoW was much closer to what I personally like to see from this genre, so I'll be really glad if that's the narrative direction the IP is headed.

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Purudaya

[Abel]

Well, Josh definitely is a great designer. He has lots of great ideas, great imagination, and the ability to come up with things only he could come up with.

 

But at the same time, the only game he designed i loved was New Vegas (with its mandatory hardcore mode, which should have been the base rule, really). Because even the game mechanics were a vast improvement over the crappy Fallout 3. The problem i have with Sawyer has nothing to do with his actual skills. More about the choices he made. I don't know if he disccussed with Urquhart the goals for the game, and if the CEO actively asked for the game to be more appealing to masses, or if Sawyer actually felt doing it this way was for the best. But in the end... *sigh*. I had hoped Obsidian would become the guidepost on how to craft great RPGs, with mechanics well grounded into the world itself, and great writting, rather than just patched over the game and labelled as "here is an obvious game mechanic, but well, it's for convenience, so it's ok".

 

As an example, i would have expected crafting to be a thing in the world itself, with lore, NPCs, recipes, dedicated shops, and such. Rather than just a lame UI with "click there, and it will do magic" oO. So many game features are done this way, it hurts... so much.

[InsaneCommander]

the best written part of the game is Konstanten

 

Check this (spoilers!).

 

The Gods act like a bunch of teenagers. It's terrible.

 

At some point I simply started to offend them in every chance I got. I wish I could slap every one of them. Well, except Ondra, because she earned the respect of my character.

 

 

 

The conversations in WM and the way she talks to my character about Tekehu just coming out of nowhere as if we are bffs gave me the impression that we became very good friends. So despite anything else, my assassin likes her.

 

 

[Tigranes]

I think people generally overestimate how a single individual's personal preferences come to shape the end product in modern day RPG projects. Even when they are the lead. Especially in a development environment that is as chaotic as Obsidian's tends to be.

[InsaneCommander]

Nemnok would have been a great main antagonist. All the hints and fluff around him (books that talk about the nature of imps and the like). A shame he was "wasted" in a side quest.

 

"TINY BLUE MAN! BOW TO NEMNOK"

[Grimo88]

Because man the writing in the main game sucked hard. The plot was stupid and not interesting and the companions where just boring. All that god crap was just cringe-worthy.

 

Then i played the Beast of Winter and it was like playing a completely different game. This expansion was a complete 10 out of 10. So much fun.

 

So does anyone know if Beast had a different narrative designer to the main game?

 

If it does they need to sack the main plot guy and use the beast guy for the next game.

You say ‘stupid’ and ‘boring’ - care to actually articulate some arguments as to why you felt this way, or leave it at that?

 

Conversely, I found I liked the main game’s story a lot more, but I enjoyed BoW.

 

It is good to keep in mind BoW has a much easier job at telling its story because it was limited by its scope and completely linear. The main game had to juggle freedom of exploration with high stakes and a much larger cast of characters with more diverse ideologies. I for one think they did a great job telling a non-traditional story in PoE2.

[house2fly]

I've said before and I'll say again, "go defeat the evil villain" would have been easier to do and probably more of a crowd pleaser, and even if the end result is far from perfect I respect the ambition and attempt to tell a different story

[Verde]

The main story would be more engaging and challenging if they more logically gated progress. For example, you have to recruit a faction (disposition 2) to bolster your forces and advance through the second story mission. The urgency of the main story is not believable either. We want our soul back...or we're the shepard of souls. But nothing in game actually forces us to move with urgency. Something like, the longer you go without your soul, the slower exp gain. Or you hear of more settlements being trampled. Something in game that evidences the sense of urgency. Ah oh well, can always RP I guess haha.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Verde

[bigbazoopa]

Yeah but the stupid thing is you don’t actually need ypur soul.

 

You can still use all your abilities and cast spells no problem without it so why do i need it?

[InsaneCommander]

The main story would be more engaging and challenging if they more logically gated progress. For example, you have to recruit a faction (disposition 2) to bolster your forces and advance through the second story mission. The urgency of the main story is not believable either. We want our soul back...or we're the shepard of souls. But nothing in game actually forces us to move with urgency. Something like, the longer you go without your soul, the slower exp gain. Or you hear of more settlements being trampled. Something in game that evidences the sense of urgency. Ah oh well, can always RP I guess haha.

 

It shouldn't be so urgent. And we should have to search for Eothas.

 

Yeah but the stupid thing is you don’t actually need ypur soul.

 

You can still use all your abilities and cast spells no problem without it so why do i need it?

 

That part of the soul has 15 experience levels. If we could get them...

Edited October 7, 2018 by InsaneCommander

[Boeroer]

That part of your soul has stuff like Veteran's Recovery, Ancient Memory and Beloved Spirit as passive auras, Old Carnage and Old Dragon Thrashed. It's like the holy grail of Powergaming. I so do need it!

[Skazz]

 

the best written part of the game is Konstanten

 

Check this (spoilers!).

 

 

Wait... this is actually real? Oh my!

 

But... why can't I romance him myself?! DAMN IT JOSH

[bigbazoopa]

 

This may make sense of alot of things discussed here.

 

Like BIG TIME!

 

Pathfinder Kingmaker is completely blowing away the steam charts BTW. So give this video some credit!

 

And my OP!

Edited October 7, 2018 by bigbazoopa