The Political Thread - Machiavelli Edition

[Guard Dog]

 

This isn't a study. It's a conversation. That wasn't data, it was examples. You and I are not going to convince each other of anything. We are and will always be opposite on almost everything from a philosophical standpoint. But that isn't the objective. The conversation itself is the objective. So please keep you observation on what is data and what is anecdote. The credibility of news sources and content in in the eye of the beholder. (speaking generally not to the specific stories you linked).

You have a scientific background, so I don't need to remind you that studies are generally the only way we can reliably reach objective conclusions about reality. It's entirely possible that those studies are somehow flawed (relevant in light of the Sokal 2.0 thing a few pages back), but I wasn't able to find anything better. I suppose I can't say your original statement was strictly wrong, as you said the violence "seems" to be coming all from one side. It certainly "seems" that way, if you deliberately choose sources like Fox News and exclude anything with an iota more journalistic rigor. My point was simply that it's really not. If we're not taking facts into consideration, we might as well go full-on flat earther.

 

And it's funny that you think we're so diametrically opposed ideologically. The only significant contention point I can think of is the importance you ascribe to the right to private property in the scale of fundamental rights.

 

On my specific comment I was thinking less about things like charlottesville and the white sheet social club and their other brothers the attifa and more about the attack on Rand Paul (correction, I had this confused with a thing that happened here in TN two years ago, not realted), the attempted murder of Steve Scalise and a number of Republican Congressmen at the baseball game two years ago and a few other things in that vein. It's hard not to contrast the way the out of power Republican supporters reacted to Kagan & Sotomayor's nomination and the way the out of power Democrat supporters have reacted to Goresuch and Kavanaugh. Kagan and Sotomayor were perceived to be at least as hostile to things near and dear to the red voters and Trump's pick's were to the blue voters. But there were no protests, no threats, nothing like that. That I remember at least.

 

The thing political leaders need to remember is there are people out there whose wrappers are a little loose and gravitate towards the fanaticism that politics sometimes engenders. When those people are being told the other side are their literal enemies and want to kill them and harm them (both of which were done in the Kavanaugh circus) it's not a surprise when one locks and loads and goes hunting. The Democrats (politicians) do not want to inspire violence. They are not monsters. They DO want to fire up the base to vote. The problem is as political leaders they need to do that without encouraging people to think different political opinions are an imminent threat to their very lives. Trump could do with that lesson also.

 

And the point of data and studies. I am very much fact driven. I believe in concrete an verifiable things. The speed of light in 3,00000000 m/s and I KNOW that is true. When you get into things like social science facts become more fluid. Since the guy that shot up the baseball game was not actually affiliated with any political group that action could be dismissed as a regular crime rather than a politically motivated one. The attack on Rand Paul dismissed an a dispute between neighbors even though the suspect himself taunted Paul with political comments during the attack. Data can be couched and manipulated in numerous ways to say what the collector wants it to stay. Few studies are completely unbiased. Most I've found begin with an outcome in mind and try to make the data support the desired outcome. Unfortunately I've leaned that the hard way in my current job. 

 

Philosophically you and I are different on a lot of things. As you pointed out most arise from the conflict of the rights of the individual over some notion of common good etc. Which of course leads to what the role of the government in a society and the what the individual owes to that society where I suspect we'll find little agreement. On other individual right I know a few we agree completely. Don't get me wrong, you are a very intelligent guy and I enjoy trading posts with you. And I'm not trying to convince you I'm right and vice versa. Just pointing that out. I suspect you would also be a lot of fun to drink booze and talk sports with. So if I'm pointing out examples of a thing it's fair game to refute the examples. Don't think I'm using sloppy web searches and presenting the results, a handful of newslinks as concrete proof that a thing is so.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Guard Dog

[Guard Dog]

 

IIRC Warren put that she was native American on a job or grant application when(forget which)  she was in her 20's. People lie (or embellish) on those things for preferential treatment. Fast forward 40 years later and she's running for Senate and  that application gets dug up. So she is presented with two options:

1. Come clean and admit she lied 40+ years earlier
2. Stick with the lie, no matter how preposterous it is.

She opted for door #2

 

Source on that?

 

https://t.co/LTQ6d1sMwM

 

""In the most exhaustive review undertaken of Elizabeth Warren’s professional history, the Globe found clear evidence, in documents and interviews, that her claim to Native American ethnicity was never considered by the Harvard Law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire her, or by those who hired her to four prior positions at other law schools. At every step of her remarkable rise in the legal profession, the people responsible for hiring her saw her as a white woman."

 The Boston Globe

 

Source is memory from two years ago. I read a hell of a lot of newspapers and books. I don't remember where every single nugget of info comes from. And I didn't say she benefited from doing it, only that she did it. Supposedly. I also couched that with IIRC. Meaning the gray HDD cell that fact is stored in may have been corrupted by insomnia and booze. 

[ShadySands]

Wasn't the Rand Paul attack just his neighbor who hated him and wasn't it over something dumb like a pile of debris or something

Edited October 15, 2018 by ShadySands

[Guard Dog]

 

please keep you observation on what is data and what is anecdote. The credibility of news sources and content in in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

SUCH POSTMODERN NEO-MARXISM REEEEEEEEEE

 

  OK, hypothetical question. I just posted an article that categorically states Donald Trump accepted a huge back channel bribe from Saudi Arabia to not make a big deal over that reporter. But the article was from Mother Jones. Do you believe it? Or that Hillary Clinton not only ordered the hit on Vince Foster, she actually shot him herself then put the pistol in his dead hand. But the source is The Blaze. Do you believe it?

[Guard Dog]

Wasn't the Rand Paul attack just his neighbor who hated him and wasn't it over something dumb like a pile of debris or something

Sorry, I had that confused with something that happened here in TN. You're right. I corrected it.

[Pidesco]

 

 

please keep you observation on what is data and what is anecdote. The credibility of news sources and content in in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

SUCH POSTMODERN NEO-MARXISM REEEEEEEEEE

 

  OK, hypothetical question. I just posted an article that categorically states Donald Trump accepted a huge back channel bribe from Saudi Arabia to not make a big deal over that reporter. But the article was from Mother Jones. Do you believe it? Or that Hillary Clinton not only ordered the hit on Vince Foster, she actually shot him herself then put the pistol in his dead hand. But the source is The Blaze. Do you believe it?

 

 

The question isn't for me, but regardless of the obviously dubious sources, the first article seems a lot more believable than the second.

 

"What, Saudi Arabia paid the US money to make something go away? Why, how preposterous!" Is a thought that never crossed anyone's mind,

[ShadySands]

I'm genetically predisposed to believing any and all conspiracy theories

 

...or at least that's what they want me to believe

[Guard Dog]

  You see how pernicious bias can be Pidesco? You are already politically predisposed against him politically. Then you see a story like that that is plausible on it's face and mixes a heavy dose of supposition and just enough truth to avoid a libel charge and the target audience accepts it easier because in reinforces and justifies the predisposition. I know people who would as easily accept the other story.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Guard Dog

[ShadySands]

That one is easy not just because of Trump bragging about Saud buying frigates and whatnot but also because we as a country have looked the other way with a lot of stuff concerning them. 

 

PS, what is going on with Trump and Mattis?

[Raithe]

Not sure how relevant this is to most of the folks here,

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

PS, what is going on with Trump and Mattis?

Trump's about to drop a diss track after Mattis said Melania had too much plastic surgery.

[Gfted1]

Under the policy, information on voter applications must precisely match information on file with the Georgia Department of Driver Services or the Social Security Administration. Election officials can place non-matching applications on hold.

Those rat bastards!

[ShadySands]

I'm more curious as to how/why so many people have mismatching info

 

I've come across it before with my grandparents but that was because they were really, really old and poor and didn't have things like birth certificates. Just curious to see what the situations are like.

[Elerond]

 

Under the policy, information on voter applications must precisely match information on file with the Georgia Department of Driver Services or the Social Security Administration. Election officials can place non-matching applications on hold.

Those rat bastards!

 

 

It does sound bad, but when you look some of the details it seems bit strange, like if you haven't written you middle name open in one of the forms and you have written it open in another form has caused applications to be put on hold. 

 

I have also read claims that things like writting dual surname without hyphen also has caused application been put on hold.

 

Meaning that it doesn't look like that it is actually meant to secure that people are who they say they are but somesort revenge from database programmer who hates that people aren't pedantic when they write their name

[Ben No.3]

So apparently Hungary outlawed homelessness. Well, they outlawed „habitual residence in a public space“. It’s a constitutional change, also, since the supreme court blocked it otherwise.

 

https://www.google.de/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/10/15/europe/hungary-criminalizes-homelessness-intl/index.html

[Gfted1]

Yes, its a pain in the butt, but should it just be handwaved? Official documents should be official.  

 

The Georgia olvr is pretty straight forward. It includes both drivers license and written application and additionally, how to charge and update this information.

 

Do you feel "eh, screw it, its just a technicality"?
 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

please keep you observation on what is data and what is anecdote. The credibility of news sources and content in in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

SUCH POSTMODERN NEO-MARXISM REEEEEEEEEE

 

  OK, hypothetical question. I just posted an article that categorically states Donald Trump accepted a huge back channel bribe from Saudi Arabia to not make a big deal over that reporter. But the article was from Mother Jones. Do you believe it? Or that Hillary Clinton not only ordered the hit on Vince Foster, she actually shot him herself then put the pistol in his dead hand. But the source is The Blaze. Do you believe it?

 

 

 

My belief or lack thereof is going to be directly proportional to the evidence presented in either case and not be particularly influenced by whatever reputation these publications are supposed to have (which I am not aware of, because the political leanings of niche publications in the USA are tremendously irrelevant to my life).

 

You can't just handwave the question of whether a news story is objectively true or not away with "oh but who cares, people will believe whatever they wanted to believe in the first place". That way lies madness.

[Malcador]

That one is easy not just because of Trump bragging about Saud buying frigates and whatnot but also because we as a country have looked the other way with a lot of stuff concerning them. 

 

PS, what is going on with Trump and Mattis?

 

Nothing really, Trump called him a 'democrat' whatever the hell that means to him.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/14/us/politics/trump-mattis-democrat.html

[Zoraptor]

So who's going to replace Mattis, Rumsfeld or Wolfowicz?

[Gfted1]

We need to coax Colin Powell out of retirement.

[Malcador]

So who's going to replace Mattis, Rumsfeld or Wolfowicz?

Scooter Libby

[Volourn]

"Nazi."

 

O RLY?

 

 

As for Mattis  trying tos ham the First lady, that sure seems unseemly for someone  of his standing.  Rather sad he has to do so.  Must be a Trump-Clinton supporter.

[ShadySands]

Doesn't Powell hate Trump?

 

Also, he said he knows more than Mattis does about NATO. He's not outright attacking him, though calling him a Democrat might be to his base, but he's being weird about him for some reason.

Edited October 15, 2018 by ShadySands

[Guard Dog]

Let's see.... my great, great, great (father's, mother's father's, mother right... something like that...) was black. All other ancestors were white. Therefore, I'm black! Woo hoo! Wait... now I have to worry when I get pulled over??? This sucks!

 

In all seriousness congrats to Elizabeth Warren, she had an NA relative 6-10 generations back. That makes her an Indian I guess. Hey if men can be women and women can be men just because they say they are then she can be an indian too. I'm sure the Mashpee will be happy to let her buy a house on their land in Nantucket. https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2018/10/15/warren-addresses-native-american-issue/YEUaGzsefB0gPBe2AbmSVO/story.html

 

Besides I feel like Tom Brady today so I'm Tom Brady now. So if y'all will excuse me I'm going home to surprise Gisele. Boy will she be surprised to see me!

Edited October 15, 2018 by Guard Dog

[ShadySands]

The one drop rule means you are black

 

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