The best tank in the game? Herald vs Crusader

[Boeroer]

What now? Is my word law or do I like to have the last word. Or both?

Edited October 13, 2018 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

Well, I am going to run a Trickster/Unbroken Riposte/disengagement attack spam build now with:

 

a) a Holy Slayer dual wield DPS (he's named Karl Franz, so a warhammer on the main and sword on the other);

 

b) either a dual pistol or dual blunderbuss FoD spam Paladin/Chanter per Boerer's suggestion as support;

 

c) a straightforward Dwarf Devoted/Ranger to best utilize Aamina's Legacy (although all I get is 5 percent more chance to stun or paralyze or something, no?);

 

d) a Holy Grenadier (Paladin/Rogue) blunderbuss CC.

 

We shall see how it goes!

[Boeroer]

Just watch out: triggering Disengagement Attacks is kind of wonky and not very reliable.

 

Did I mention that Scion of Flame works with FoD (+1 PEN; for a Bleak Walker even Spirit of Decay works on FoD, giving it additional +1 PEN)?

 

Since you have no AoE heals except maybe the passives from Paladin/Chanter: Kind Wayfarer maybe? 

[Lampros]

Just watch out: triggering Disengagement Attacks is kind of wonky and not very reliable.

 

Did I mention that Scion of Flame works with FoD (+1 PEN; for a Bleak Walker even Spirit of Decay works on FoD, giving it additional +1 PEN)?

 

Since you have no AoE heals except maybe the passives from Paladin/Chanter: Kind Wayfarer maybe? 

 

My Holy Slayer main is a Kind Wayfarer; and I tried not to dump Constitution or Resolve on most guys. So I am hoping I will be okay.

[Lampros]

Hmm, I am running into some unexpected problems at the digsite:

 

First, having three piercing weapon users mean that it takes forever to kill the skeletons and other high pierce resist enemies.

 

Second, dual blunderbuss guy at this stage is doing very little damage - like a third of the hunting bow Hunter. Moreover, he's taking a lot of damage due to proximity to enemy melees. I am sure the DPS will get better once I get Hand Mortar and possibly Serafen's other blunderbuss; but I am not sure if the issue with taking too much damage will improve. I guess I have to take Escape and possibly look to take other damage avoidance/mitigation skills.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Lampros

[Winterheart]

On the topic of tanks. How would a Helwaker/Skald or Troubadour tank hold up? Been wanting to play through the game as a tank instead of the skirmisher when the next DLC hits.

[Flucas]

On the topic of tanks. How would a Helwaker/Skald or Troubadour tank hold up? Been wanting to play through the game as a tank instead of the skirmisher when the next DLC hits.

 

Theoretically i think the answer would be "okay". It's not ideal but there are some synergies. Gear plays a major role in tanking so any class can be an okay tank. This combination will not be good or excellent though.

 

Get titulious palm asap and upgrade it with the wounds>deflection enchant.

[Elric Galad]

Hijacking this old thread with a random though about tank :

A couple of days ago, I faced Huani O Whe and I had to choose a party member to lure away one of the Gigantic Black Ooze.

I ended up using my Nalzpaca/Transcendant, mostly because his Nalzpaca side was able to spam the twins who did the actual tanking. Drugs, Food and item provided enough regeneration for the couple of ranged attacks he suffered.
I didn't pick my Herald cause she has to remain within the party to help everybody regenerate.

It seems that there isn't lots of class option for infinite regeneration which is necessary at some point for a self-sustainable tank. Herald seems the best choice here, but ironically uses a party-wide ability for this purpose. Other than that, it seems trick such as summons are actually better than doing the tanking by oneself.

It really feels weird that fighter isn't that much suited for the role, but this is mostly because constant recovery has a limited duration. Limited duration hurts for a few fights, but these are arguably the fights where Tanks are the most needed.

The question here is : should constant recovery have been... well... constant ? (maybe with lower base number though)

[Boeroer]

I guess it has a duration because it had one in PoE1 - and also because if you make it really "constant" it would have to be lower per tick (else too strong). But if it's lower per tick it's actually a lot less useful in 80% of the encouters (when having a party). On lower difficulty settings even more so.

A good approach would have been to add a second, low but infinite regenration on top of Constant Recovery with Rapid Recovery. Or even better the other way round: Constant Recovery is a low but endless regeneration but Rapid Recovery adds a higher but time-limited heal.  

Regarding the question: now, after having played Deadfire a lot and using a dedicated tank (or even two) in most of my runs I would say that a Fighter is a must - at least how I play tanks/what I need them for. Not because of regeneration or even the highest possible defenses or whatever but because of engagement. When I have 6 or so engagement slots I can bind up to 6 enemies (if they are not too big in size) and it seems nobody wants to leave my engagement ever. It's the perfect CC. Especially if the tank is the only one unstealthing first. If I want a good mixture of engagement, defense and offense I choose Unbroken/Trickster which has some awesome synergies and doesn't even need Defender Stance at some later point (gets enough engagment due to passives and items) and become a murder-riposte-tank with Mob Stance. Sure, Arcane Dampener hurts because it removes 50 points of deflection immediately - but it's still not too bad then.

If I want the absolute impervious turtle I go Unbroken/Shieldbearer (many engagement slots to begin with - gives me more freedom with my items and such) or Goldpact Knight (highest AR but will have 1 less engagement). The defenses are stellar, you're resistant to everything, the support is cool and Exalted Endurance (combined with a Ring of Greater Regeneration perhaps) is enough to keep me near 100% health all the time. Also because the damage I receive (if I receive any in the first place) is puny. Cadhu Scalth reduces it, the stellar AR reduces it, Death's Maw reduces it, Defender Stance reduces it...

At the same time a Herald is surely nice to have because of the dual healing aura (can spare me another healer, also because of Lay on Hands and such). But in my experience he can't bind foes very well. You'd have to use a spear+modal (+1) or Kapana Taga (+2), a Shieldbearer (+2) and some other gear that may come rather late - and you still wouldn't have the amount of engagement I would like to have. I work a lot with AoE effects - and unsurprisingly those work best if the enemies are all in one place (where they can't hurt anybody). I will just nuke on my tank if I can't avoid it- doesn't get hit a lot and if he does he shrugs it off. At the same time a considerable amount of enemies will run around my Herald and get to my other party members pretty quickly. While that is no a big problem because the Herald makes everybody sturdier it makes the combat a lot messier and chaotic. I can't use AoE then a lot and have to use single target damage - which is just less effective (than debuffing and pulverizing a whole group of foes).  

I'd rather use a Crusader or Swashbuckler tank and then a Herald offtank/CC/support. That works well with few engagement slots and can still deliver all his goodies.

If we talk about perfectly facetanking one single powerful enemy - that's a different story of course. But I guess the Crusader would also do very well then (while the Shwashbuckler would stink at some point). No need for engagement, sure, but still stellar defenses and resistances and ok regeneration. You can switch to Warrior Staance then (the deflection bonus stacks with Refreshing Defense and tha Paladin's passive).

Edited October 2, 2019 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

I never felt the need to have a tank engaging multiple enemies, but I always make sure nobody is squishy in my party. If you already have a chanter in the party then unbroken/shieldbearer is one of the best tanks you can have - but without a chanter he will need a pocket healer to be able to tank the megabosses.

If we eliminate the priest with the BDD/SoT cheese, then my final top 3 is:

1. bloodmage/paladin

2. troubadour/paladin

3. bloodmage/tactician

[Boeroer]

Sure, you are playing differently then.

It's not that I have 1 tank and 4 glass cannons - it's just so that it's superconvient to have all (or most) of the melee enemies stick to the tank all the time. Differently from PoE1 they will almost never break engagement. And if you use a Unbroken/Trickster with Ryngrim's the forced disengagement (increased ACC and damage from Unbroken with Sneak Attack, Deathblows and Deep Wounds) is a great damage source as well (besides the tanking and CC). It's more of a hybrid and not as sturdy (although Adept Evasion on a tank is cool if you tend to nuke him as collateral dmg) but very effective. 

Sticky tanks with lots of engagenement are especially useful if you do some AoE shenanigans with WotEP or Karaböru + Clear Out or something on a melee damage char who approaches the engaged mob from the side.

Unbroken/Shieldbearer or -Goldpact would be my candidate if I alsoi wanted to facetank megabosses (with a party in the back). Just because he can both engage a lot and soak up damage very well. 

Funnily enough your example of Unbroken/Shieldbearer has the most engagement slots of any tank.

 

[Marigoldran]

Yes!!!!!!!! Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been validated!!!!!! (We need more threads like this.  Heralds need more love).  

Edited October 14, 2019 by Marigoldran

[Boeroer]

I don't remember that anyone objected to the statement that Heralds are very useful characters. So what needed to be validated?

What got objected is not your obvious love of Heralds but that you constantly bring them up as suggestion - even if sombody just wanted to order french fries.


 

[Marigoldran]

The solution to everything is a herald!

[Boeroer]

Or a conveyor belt full of french fries...

[Lampros]

Oops; my bad. I didn't realize I had already responded to this thread. 2 years is a long time remember for an old man like me!

Edited November 6, 2020 by Lampros

[Raven Darkholme]

Why would a herald be a better tank then BM/Tactician?

It's immortal with wall of drain cheese and has better ways besides engagement to keep enemies of the party (for some reason I can't think of the name of the spell, but all I can think of is the word "succ")

[AndreaColombo]

Isn’t it kind of hard to trigger Brilliant with a Tactician if playing with a full party?

Granted, a Cipher can make all enemies in a mob flanked but keeping your entire party from being flanked is no easy task against numerous foes (and if foes are very spread out, like in most ship fights if you board—which I always do—the Cipher’s power won’t catch all of them.)

[Raven Darkholme]

21 hours ago, AndreaColombo said:

Isn’t it kind of hard to trigger Brilliant with a Tactician if playing with a full party?

Granted, a Cipher can make all enemies in a mob flanked but keeping your entire party from being flanked is no easy task against numerous foes (and if foes are very spread out, like in most ship fights if you board—which I always do—the Cipher’s power won’t catch all of them.)

Granted I never played with a party, but if you play the tank as a true tank it shouldn't be too hard.

Keep in mind you can make at least 4(??) party members completely immune to flanking.

You could engage with the tank first (shouldn't be necessary most of the time) and keep party stealthed till all enemies are on him.

(Shouldn't take longer than 10 seconds)

Whoever somehow gets through can be disengaged by all kinds of debuffs, charm, terror, succy suc etc.

[Kaylon]

If you don't play solo it doesn't make sense to pick a tank requiring too much micro and high level abilities. Without another chanter in a party I would always pick paladin-troubadour (solid from the start to the end and able to tank everything). If there's already another chanter, then a paladin-helwalker is also great option (can achieve passive 170+ all defenses).