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The best tank in the game? Herald vs Crusader


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81 replies to this topic

#1
Teclis23

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Im going to leave the arcane knight out because IMO I think that to many of there passive spells get cancelled out by each other and these two are the best for these reasons:

 

All pally build below are Goldpact paladin

 

- herald has a passive chant (+10 def)  that stacks with the pallys deep faith 

- The goldpact pallys AR bonus does not stack with iron skin or other wiz AR buffs  but does stack with the unbroken fighters +1 AR. So + 5 AR at the start of the game is just insane. Like God mode. No joke try it its is seriously broken OP

- Any chanter multi gets to use summons.

- A fighter/ Pally gets vigorous defense AND unbending. This will beat a Arcane Knight any day. Easily and will beat the hereald but you dont get summons!

- Troubadour Chanter/ pally gets all the passive healing chants

- Constant recovery on a fighter is insane with high might


Edited by Teclis23, 08 August 2018 - 06:59 AM.


#2
gkathellar

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Templar of Wael. :p



#3
Teclis23

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Templar of Wael. :p

I strongly disagree

 

I am playing on POTD Level scaling upwards and there is no need for any priest if you have two Pallys in your party . The combination of the Goldpact pally AR bonus + Lay on hands is more then enough to keep your entire party alive. 

 

Hence the need for no preists.

 

Lifegiver duids are better healers then priests BTW

 

Also alot of the Wael def buffs dont stack. You can only use one of them at a time

 

and the chanter gets a passive +10 def that gets applied in a 6m radius (with high INT). This is way better then any wael buffs

 

and fighters Vigouros defense is also way better then any Wael buff


Edited by Teclis23, 08 August 2018 - 07:26 AM.

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#4
Tommy1984

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Herald ... atleast if you play upscaled PotD Solo (more so with activated Challenges). Constant Recovery and Unbending are limited by time and ressources, while a Herald can heal for an unlimited time.



#5
indika_tates

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Goldpact pally + Unbroken. There are other alternatives like generic wizard + paladin but you can be eventually dampened. Herald is a versatile class but no class can achieve the amount of deflection and armor of this combination. Even in POTD this class can't die, it's quite easy to get more than 120+ deflection with 15-16 armor rating + lay on hands for emergencies.

 

I'm not a fank of pure tank classes as your main because it's like playing with a brick. WIth berath blessings something like this works (human): 19-8-8-18-19 + aedyr for a total of 21-10-10-20-22.


Edited by indika_tates, 08 August 2018 - 07:51 AM.


#6
Teclis23

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Goldpact pally + Unbroken. There are other alternatives like generic wizard + paladin but you can be eventually dampened. Herald is a versatile class but no class can achieve the amount of deflection and armor of this combination. Even in POTD this class can't die, it's quite easy to get more than 120+ deflection with 15-16 armor rating + lay on hands for emergencies.

 

I'm not a fank of pure tank classes as your main because it's like playing with a brick. WIth berath blessings something like this works (human): 19-8-8-18-19 + aedyr for a total of 21-10-10-20-22.

I agree

 

Goldpact pally + unbroken is insane



#7
Dorftek

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Unbroken+Trickster. Stack engagement slots and u can lock down as many enemies as can surround u. U will automatically put distracted on everyone, ur dmg will be good and ur defenses will be skyhigh. Anyone who tries to disengage will regret it. Trickster also bring Riposte :D

Refreshing defense also stack with mirrored image for some reason.

Unbroken + persistent distraction + hold the line + last word + reckless brig + medium shield gives u +6 engagement slots in mob stance and +9 in defender stance.
Last word gets +5% dmg per engaged target and reckless brig gives u +5% action speed per engaged target and mob stance gives u -5% recovery per engaged target. This combined with the rogues sneak attack means u get a great tank with also great dmg.

#8
asnjas

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Rangers little antelope buddy cause he tries so hard, cares so much and most loyal.

Goldpack knight only cares about money.
Chanters only care about arts and crafts.

Antelope friend cares about you. That's the tank I want watching my back.
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#9
Teclis23

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Unbroken+Trickster. Stack engagement slots and u can lock down as many enemies as can surround u. U will automatically put distracted on everyone, ur dmg will be good and ur defenses will be skyhigh. Anyone who tries to disengage will regret it. Trickster also bring Riposte :D

Refreshing defense also stack with mirrored image for some reason.

Unbroken + persistent distraction + hold the line + last word + reckless brig + medium shield gives u +6 engagement slots in mob stance and +9 in defender stance.
Last word gets +5% dmg per engaged target and reckless brig gives u +5% action speed per engaged target and mob stance gives u -5% recovery per engaged target. This combined with the rogues sneak attack means u get a great tank with also great dmg.

pally gets +20 bonus to deflection that is passive and stacks with everything. Goldpact pally get +4 AR on top of that that stacks with Unbroken AR +1 for a total off +5AR

So no your example is way off

Not even in the ballpark

And what is refreshing defense? You mean vigorous defense? No it deadfire doesnt stack with mirror image you have made a mistake

Edited by Teclis23, 08 August 2018 - 08:33 AM.


#10
Boeroer

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Refreshing Defense is the upgrade of Vigorous Defense. It does stack now. I know we discussed oherwise (when you were still no1fanboy ;)) - but its seems things changed. Same with Llengrath's Safeguard. All abilities that do "+x to all defenses" stack with deflection-only buffs it seems (Circle of Defense). Like it was in PoE.

Because of this no other multiclass can achieve the defenses of an Arcane Knight (at least temporary) I think - maybe a Paladin/Wael Priest can:

Paladin's defenses + Mirrored Image (+30 defl.) + Llengrath's Safeguard (+20 to all defenses). Iron Skin doesn't stack with Gilded Enmity, but stuff like Bulwark does.

Unbroken + Paladin is nice but less versatile - and don't forget that the Unbroken gets a serious malus to his Reflex. +1 AR is nothing to jump around about, but the engagement and hefty disengagement attacks are nice. Combine with Mob Stance, Overbearing Guard, Reckless Brigandine and the new Godhammer Plate to pulverize everybody who doesn't want to stay for dinner. ;)

Paladin + Troubadour is very nice as well. Versatile (switch from heavy dmg buffing via Zealous Focus + Shared Flames + Mith Fyr to great healing via Exhalted Endurance + Ancient Memory + Lay on Hands) and more stuff to do with invocations.

Paladin/Priest of Wael was suggested not because you need a priest,but because it can reach high defenses with Mirrored Image etc. + Priest buffs and because it has good healing capabilities.

Edited by Boeroer, 08 August 2018 - 09:18 AM.

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#11
Khalidi1

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Rangers little antelope buddy cause he tries so hard, cares so much and most loyal.

Goldpack knight only cares about money.
Chanters only care about arts and crafts.

Antelope friend cares about you. That's the tank I want watching my back.

 

Gotta try an antelope ranger with the new challenges without game pausing. The antelope sounds like a perfect damage buffer.. the ranger itself could be a 2-hander offtank or cleric/druid/ pally healer or such..



#12
Boeroer

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This thread needs to go to the char build subforum.

#13
indika_tates

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Because of this no other multiclass can achieve the defenses of an Arcane Knight (at least temporary) I think - maybe a Paladin/Wael Priest can:

 

That's the point. Temporary. You run out of buffs, you die. You have the duration of the buffs to win the combat. The advantage of unbroken/pally is that with some passive dmg/healing support (like dragon thrashed + ancient memory + pale light) is that you don't rely on buffs but on passives.

 

Unbroken reflex malus is negligible if you use "The wall" when you notice reflex attacks.



#14
Boeroer

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You run out of buffs - you're still a paladin. Those don't just die without buffs. Of course it's temporary - but in that time your defenses are stellar. With Arcane Dampener on your head they are still good.

Using the wall also applies to other class combos. The reflex malus still persists. It doesn't go away. No point for the Unbroken.

Relying on other party members' passive stuff also applies to every other class combo. No point for the Unbroken either.

A point is that he's the stickiest tank there is - and that can be a big advantage.

Edited by Boeroer, 08 August 2018 - 09:38 AM.

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#15
indika_tates

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A point is that he's the stickiest tank there is - and that can be a big advantage.

 

The priest is a caster and that's a huge advantage compared to a pure melee class like the unbroken/pally. But don't neglect the permanent +4/+1 AR you receive. Few monsters have 16/17 pen and with the absurd amount of deflection you have they can't crit you so no overpenetration is possible. And it doesn't matter if you have 120 def or 250 if they can't hit you. Grazes are nothing and constant recovery deal with the pitiful damage mobs can do.

 

Another thing you are forgetting are the engagement slots. +3 from fighter stance, +1 from unbroken +1 from shield, +1 from hold the line. I don't know other players but I abuse this from partial party stealth to grab the highest amount of mobs I can before starting the real combat. If you talk about theorycraft of the highest def tank you can build I agree with your post. But it's a fact that the crusader is the toughest class in terms of prolonged tanking.

 

I'm not saying a pally/priest is not a good class. Every class with paladin + whatever you like has good defensive capabilities. And if you can heal/buff at the same time you tank it's quite a good combination. But as I said it's not deflection what makes you a good tank or not, it's the amount of mobs you can disable from attacking your squishies and in this role the crusader is the king of kings.


Edited by indika_tates, 08 August 2018 - 10:03 AM.

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#16
Boeroer

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A point is that he's the stickiest tank there is - and that can be a big advantage.


[...]
 
Another thing you are forgetting are the engagement slots. +3 from fighter stance, +1 from unbroken +1 from shield, +1 from hold the line. I don't know other players but I abuse this from partial party stealth to grab the highest amount of mobs I can before starting the real combat. If you talk about theorycraft of the highest def tank you can build I agree with your post. But it's a fact that the crusader is the toughest class in terms of prolonged tanking.

[...]


How you can say that I'm forgetting the Unbroken's engagement slots while quoting me where I say that he's the stickiest tank is totally beyond me... :)

I'm not even campaigning for the Arcance Knight, I just listed pros and cons of the different options. You are gnawling the wrong stick it seems.

Edited by Boeroer, 08 August 2018 - 10:33 AM.


#17
indika_tates

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How you can say that I'm forgetting the Unbroken's engagement slots while quoting me where I say that he's the stickiest tank is totally beyond me... :)

 

 

This post is getting large :) Don't take it into consideration.



#18
mosspit

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Isn't Glided Enmity AR bonus supposed to disappear after being attacked a number of times as per description?

#19
baldurs_gate_2

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Isn't Glided Enmity AR bonus supposed to disappear after being attacked a number of times as per description?

Yes



#20
Dr <3

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Since it is tank time... Nobody tried to stack plain and simple dmg reductions?

Guardian stance gives you 5% dmg reduction for every engaged enemy. If you go unbroken + shieldbearer as you were discussing you can pump up to 6-7 engagement slots. Ok, is not easy to get SO surrounded even in solo potd, BUT a fair 20-25% dmg reduction is achieveble.

On this you can stack:
- death maws elm : 15% dmg res on kill
- claim and refusal amulet modal : +15%* dmg res
- undying burden belt : 5-15%* dmg res
- other items?
- forgetful night ( food ) : 20% dmg res
- mouth char drug : +10?* Dmg res

* If memory serves me right

So beteeen
- hig defenses ( vigorous defence + pala passive)
- very good armor (+4 frm gilded enmity, usable nearly infinite since when you killed the guy you get zeal back)
- pala + fighter regenerations + lay of hand + unbending
- 60-70% dmg reduction

Are you unkillable? Anybody tried it? I'm just theorycrafting...

Ah last note: dmg reduction is applied like a normal dmg modifier:
Es: if a guy hit you with a legendary sword and you have 60% dmg resistance : roll dmg + 60% -60% = you counter the "legendary" enchantment.
So vs kiths ( that use often weapon with quality, and have a lot of other minor bonuses) dmg reduction is less effective.
BUT vs most other monsters: their's attacks have very high BASE DMG BUT VERY FEW DMG MODIFIERS ( apart from might), so a -60% reduction could even mean a real 60% reduction of total dmg.




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