phantom pain, secret horrors, mental binding, tenuos grasp

[Archaven]

wondering anyone taking these skill at all? i find myself taking these. are they not necessary?

 

phantom pain -10 def and -1 armor. that is terribly awesome if you ask me. plus the big aoe. but i dont see anyone taking this in their builds at all?

 

secret horrors for the frighten. i'm not sure if this skill is bugged? seems that some monsters still able to nuke me or cast offensive spell under secret horrors. otherwise i think this spell is pretty awesome

 

mental binding. paralyze target for 6s and aoe immobilized. i think it's pretty awesome. only issue is the immobolize target fortitude. most mobs in potd have very high fortitude, reflex and even will. how do you overcome spell accuracy?

 

tenous grasp.  anyone taking this at all? is able to shaken thus lowering will and helps cipher dominating spells better.

 

discuss

[Boeroer]

What is Phantom Pain? Phantom Foes?

 

It's great. It was already great in PoE. As you said: huge AoE and good debuff for that level.

 

You can even flank a fellow Streetfighter as confused Berserker/Cipher.

 

Secret Horrors is nice as well. I especially like the fast casting time.

 

The cast/recovery time for Mental Binding is too long for my taste. Investing over 6 seconds for a 6 second debuff that might even miss... nay.

 

Tenous Grasp has longer range and is faster than Whisper of Treason. But the effect is so much weaker - I don't use it.

[Verde]

Yeah a lot of those abilities are fast and powerful. Secret Horrors should be a higher level spell - shuts down offensive spells and think of the synergy with Deathblows.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Verde

[UltimaLuminaire]

@Boeroer

 

Mental Binding was sped up in a prior patch to have a faster cast speed. It currently has a fast cast speed with average recovery, just like Secret Horrors. It's still balanced by below average Paralysis duration, but is otherwise fantastic when coordinating a barrage of attacks.

 

@Archaven

 

Overcoming Fortitude has the same steps as most other defenses. You can stack accuracy bonuses from passives. Of Accuracy is a simple +3, Perception items found early game can usually net you a +1 or +2 from necklace and helm. Pet can get you another +1 Perception early on. There might be a pet that gives you +3 accuracy on spells or distant opponents. For actives, you can stack a Perception inspiration with a consumable (+5) for a total of +10 acc. This is all before party members nuke enemy Fortitude with Morning Star Modal and/or body afflictions.

 

Another method of gaining accuracy is power level. You get +1 per PL beyond the base PL of the spell. This means a single class will have slightly more accuracy, but also that Empower will add +5 accuracy.

 

Of course, the Mental Binding immobilize is more of a bonus. Only reason to use it over Web is to immobilize enemies immune to Ground. While it's good at that, most enemies that can fly also use ranged attacks, so yeah.

Edited July 25, 2018 by UltimaLuminaire

[Haplok]

Phantom foes is good, however there are alternatives like Persistent Distraction or various Blind spells. It has quite a bit of competition (Mind Blades, Mental Binding, Psychovampiric Shield, Recall Agony) .

 

Secret horrors and Mental Binding are pretty great.

 

I also like Tenuous Grasp a lot. Costs nothing and reduces enemy will by 20... Great before a Charm / Dominate.

 

How to beat willsaves? Apart from Tenuous grasp and secret horrors that is? Well club modal bewildering blows, Psychovampiric shield... There's also the very nice wizard level 2 spell to lower will.

 

For Fort there's Morningstar modal and again secret horrors.

[mosspit]

I really like Mental Binding - use it more for an on-demand interrupt attack. Notice an enemy prepping an active you don't like? Pop MB

 

And for Phantom Pain?

 

 

 

Kept you waiting, huh?

 

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by mosspit

[Verde]

Phantom Foes has a HUGE AoE...probably one of the biggest in the games...but I agree it does have competition.

 

Mental Binding is very fast and perfect for "oh ****" moments. Secret Horrors already addressed.

 

Also wanted to mention Wild Leech which applies and affliction and stacks with Borrowed Instinct (one of the best self buffs). These are perfect for a Mindstalker.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Verde

[grasida]

Wild leech applies a random low-tier infliction and inspiration, and random means random. If you already have a perception inspiration and it rolls perception, you get nothing. The debuff is weak and unreliable and the buff is weak and unreliable and if you have any other buffs on your self or debuffs on your target, it might just fail completely. Compare it with psychovampiric shield, which does the same thing predictably but better (-10 enemy resolve vs. -5 to random stat) but costs half as much. In my opinion, it’s one of the worst abilities in the game. It was twice as powerful in poe 1 and nobody liked it then either.

 

If it were a level one spell, it would be okay. If it had no recovery at all, like many far more powerful wizard buffs, it might be okay, though not worth the focus if your cipher regularly uses psychovampiric shield or tactical meld, since it then has s 33% chance to fail. And it would certainly be worthless if you’re team had any character that likes to cast lots off inspirations, like a priest or a chanter.

 

I read one good solution for it here, but I can’t recall what it was. I think if it randomly gave two or three afflictions for two or three inspirations, it might be worth taking.

Edited July 26, 2018 by grasida

[Boeroer]

It should give you a a random tier-3 inspiration and put a tier-3-affliction on the target, that would make it way more attractive - but still not good enough for it to be a popular choice. OR it could upgrade an existing inspiration/affliction if there's already the same one onyou/the target.  

[Dorftek]

It should give you a a random tier-3 inspiration and put a tier-3-affliction on the target, that would make it way more attractive - but still not good enough for it to be a popular choice. OR it could upgrade an existing inspiration/affliction if there's already the same one onyou/the target.

It would be cool if it just stole an existing buff from the enemy. Like Unbending :D

[Raven Darkholme]

For some reason eyestrike distracts(flanks) on top of the blind, so phantom foes is not that amazing, it does have bigger AoE, but at least solo that is completely irrelevant. (and it's not like eyestrie is a small aoe with proper Int value )

Edited July 26, 2018 by Raven Darkholme

[thundercleese]

For some reason eyestrike distracts(flanks) on top of the blind, so phantom foes is not that amazing, it does have bigger AoE, but at least solo that is completely irrelevant. (and it's not like eyestrie is a small aoe with proper Int value )

All PER afflictions cause flanked.

[Haplok]

For some reason eyestrike distracts(flanks) on top of the blind, so phantom foes is not that amazing, it does have bigger AoE, but at least solo that is completely irrelevant. (and it's not like eyestrie is a small aoe with proper Int value )

 

Not only does Phantom Foes have a much bigger aoe, but it also targets Will defence (Eyestrike - Fort), which is typically much easier to debuff for a cipher - and beat.

 

That said, I can't fit it in my current build.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

With a Beguiler you must.

[grasida]

It should give you a a random tier-3 inspiration and put a tier-3-affliction on the target, that would make it way more attractive - but still not good enough for it to be a popular choice. OR it could upgrade an existing inspiration/affliction if there's already the same one onyou/the target.

This used to be my opinion, and I even proposed it here (or on something awful, I forget) but for good or bad, the game treats tier 3 inspirations as special. Most of them are unique to a single class and are only available as personal or single target buffs. While I think having wild leech provide tier 3 inspirations would add some interesting reactivity and diversity to ciphers, it would be a striking departure from the way the game handles these buffs.

[Aranduin]

I use a lot Phantom Foes. Have competition but is a cheap big debuff with a big AOE.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

For some reason eyestrike distracts(flanks) on top of the blind, so phantom foes is not that amazing, it does have bigger AoE, but at least solo that is completely irrelevant. (and it's not like eyestrie is a small aoe with proper Int value )

 

Not only does Phantom Foes have a much bigger aoe, but it also targets Will defence (Eyestrike - Fort), which is typically much easier to debuff for a cipher - and beat.

 

That said, I can't fit it in my current build.

 

My current devoted/ascendant has 111 accuracy without ANY (temporary) buffs for eyestrike.

With drug, disciplined strikes and borrowed Instinct it's 141 and there is still secret horrors which goes against will and debuffs fort. (I never use it tho, since eyestrike only costs 10 focus it isn't the biggest deal to recast it if it shgould happen to miss)

[Haplok]

Well, in my party Aloth usually casts Chill Fog, which does the same as a lasting area effect... and Eder has Persistent Distraction, so I don't use Eyestrike that much. Oneother nasty aspect of this spell is that it fails against the primary target, then it fizzles and does nothing. I use Secret Horrors way more. But sometimes I do. And as you wrote, it's cheap.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Haplok

[Dorftek]

I wish u could cast painlink on urself.. a painlink + unbending combo would be really neat!

[Verde]

Wild leech applies a random low-tier infliction and inspiration, and random means random. If you already have a perception inspiration and it rolls perception, you get nothing. The debuff is weak and unreliable and the buff is weak and unreliable and if you have any other buffs on your self or debuffs on your target, it might just fail completely. Compare it with psychovampiric shield, which does the same thing predictably but better (-10 enemy resolve vs. -5 to random stat) but costs half as much. In my opinion, it’s one of the worst abilities in the game. It was twice as powerful in poe 1 and nobody liked it then either.

 

If it were a level one spell, it would be okay. If it had no recovery at all, like many far more powerful wizard buffs, it might be okay, though not worth the focus if your cipher regularly uses psychovampiric shield or tactical meld, since it then has s 33% chance to fail. And it would certainly be worthless if you’re team had any character that likes to cast lots off inspirations, like a priest or a chanter.

 

I read one good solution for it here, but I can’t recall what it was. I think if it randomly gave two or three afflictions for two or three inspirations, it might be worth taking.

One of the worst abilities in the game is a ridiculous statement, an an opinion that could be easily refuted, but you make a few good pts otherwise. It's not about the strength of the affliction is the fact that it stacks with Borrowed Instinct and applies AN affliction, allowing for Sneak Attack and Deathblows. And it already has low recovery time, so no idea what you're talking about there.

 

Your point with the shield is fair, but there no way I'm taking the shield over Mental Binding and Mindblades, two of the best low level Cipher spells. And what's the point of Tactical Meld? Fighters don't need it and when does the Cipher need more engagement? Most likely you will already have high PER or use any of the 38927 PER buffs. It's completely wasted if your party is built right.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Verde

[Archaven]

i find cipher has many, many useful abilities but you are only to choose 1 ability per leveling. i like the flexibility much more like as in first poe. i would have hoped that deadfire would be like the class combo of first poe classes. i take it that it's extremely difficult to balance? also in my opinion due to this design decision certain class like priest became not required. wizard is still exactly the same like first poe except that the nuisance is you need to switch your grimoires. that's why wizard is far more powerful and useful in deadfire compared to other classes.

 

another abilities i found others suggesting in builds are silent scream. it seems to looks good on paper, i find the damage less appealing.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Archaven

[thundercleese]

i find cipher has many, many useful abilities but you are only to choose 1 ability per leveling. i like the flexibility much more like as in first poe. i would have hoped that deadfire would be like the class combo of first poe classes. i take it that it's extremely difficult to balance? also in my opinion due to this design decision certain class like priest became not required. wizard is still exactly the same like first poe except that the nuisance is you need to switch your grimoires. that's why wizard is far more powerful and useful in deadfire compared to other classes.

 

another abilities i found others suggesting in builds are silent scream. it seems to looks good on paper, i find the damage less appealing.

People like silent scream because it's a raw damage AoE that also causes stun.

 

I agree Wizard is probably the strongest class, especially among the casters.

[grasida]

One of the worst abilities in the game is a ridiculous statement, an an opinion that could be easily refuted, but you make a few good pts otherwise. It's not about the strength of the affliction is the fact that it stacks with Borrowed Instinct and applies AN affliction, allowing for Sneak Attack and Deathblows. And it already has low recovery time, so no idea what you're talking about there.

Your point with the shield is fair, but there no way I'm taking the shield over Mental Binding and Mindblades, two of the best low level Cipher spells. And what's the point of Tactical Meld? Fighters don't need it and when does the Cipher need more engagement? Most likely you will already have high PER or use any of the 38927 PER buffs. It's completely wasted if your party is built right.

Regarding tactical meld: Perception inspirations aren’t that common. Fighters get one as a core skill for the class. Priests can give out perception inspirations to the whole party, but you have to bring a priest, you have to pick those spells on that priest, then the spells have limited duration and compete for limited resources. Tactical meld is nice for an unlimited source of a tier two perception inspiration on two characters alone. But the engagement buff is also potentially very good. You say ciphers don’t care, but tanky multiclass ciphers do. It’s really good for a riposte focused mind stalker, for example. Or it could be used to give a fighter (either the cipher himself, someone else or both) a very high engagement limit while in mob stance.

 

Regarding wild leech: First, your point that you wouldn’t take psychovampiric shield doesn’t make sense if you’re taking wild leech. Nothing says you have to take a fourth level spell. You could take psychovampiric shield in addition to the other strong second level powers instead of wild leech. And psychovampiric shield is competes with them less, because it costs half as much as wild leech. Second, using wild leech to set up sneak attack or death blows seems inefficient. Ciphers can inflict much more powerful afflictions to large groups of enemies at once for less focus than wild leech uses. Yes, it buffs the cipher at the same time, but the buff is minor, unpredictable and frequently useless. And rogues can apply multiple afflictions to an enemy with one guile while dealing damage at the same time. Melee rogues get death blows against any enemy they’re targeting for free, because of persistent distraction. For ranged rogues, wild leech won’t qualify the enemy for death blows by itself anyway, so you’ll still need to do something else to them anyway, so why not just skip wild leech. Third, I meant wild leech might be worth taking if it had no recovery time at all, like wizard buffs. It has a three second recovery, which is fast, but still not good. Remember all cipher spells have a built in “recovery” because you have to generate focus to cast them. Even if wild leech had no recovery time, it would still be dubious because almost any other action you could take would be more efficient.

[Verde]

That's not what recovery is though.

 

You literally have the best Per buffs in the game in the next level at Borrowed Instinct so why would you need Tactical Meld? And Fighters absolute don't need any help due to their level 1 skill.

 

You may not like Wild Leech but it doesn't have much competition at that level. Its actually recovery time is very fast and it benefits from Beguiler bonuses, so again it's nowhere close to the worst ability in the game. Heck, half of Ciphers low level abilities could take that prize.

[Boeroer]

It's really bad though - because it's random and it's single target. You can't plan encounters or anything on random effects on a single targets - let alone for that price. Even if it would be good "on average" (which it is not) most people won't consider it because it's unreliable.