Josh:"The Watcher don't have particular reason to fight Eothas."

[gkathellar]

 

Their impact on the overarching plot is; coincidentally, that's exactly the topic of this thread.

Except that many people seem to be confused about what the plot is.

 

The plot is not to stop Eothas from destroying the Wheel. The plot is to find out what Eothas is doing and get your soul back. The impact on the overarching plot is that you succeed in doing everything you set out to do.

 

If so many people are confused about what a story's overarching plot is, that story has a problem.

[Tick]

I think this is whole conversation just went in a circle..

[Guest]

 

 

Their impact on the overarching plot is; coincidentally, that's exactly the topic of this thread.

Except that many people seem to be confused about what the plot is.

 

The plot is not to stop Eothas from destroying the Wheel. The plot is to find out what Eothas is doing and get your soul back. The impact on the overarching plot is that you succeed in doing everything you set out to do.

If so many people are confused about what a story's overarching plot is, that story has a problem.

Another explanation is that a lot of people don’t know how to recognize basic structures of storytelling, identify themes, etc.

 

Which is fine. It’s also fine to say that this isn’t your cup of tea and that you’d prefer something else. It’s something else entirely to say that something fails to do X when it objectively does.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Achilles

[theBalthazar]

Story of POE2 is objectively less interresting than POE1.

 

Hopefully, the level design is better.

 

But the story is awful. It is not thrilling...

 

Witcher 3 is a good example of a good story WITH a lot of side quest.

 

You cannot open your world if you abandon the main story like this. Create a true open world, congruous, is not a simple thing.

 

More : I don't see the "2" of POE. Where is the true link between the both game ? Except for few companions ?

 

Are there already "studs of markups" who could make a POE3 interresting ? Not sure...

Edited July 27, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Guest]

More : I don't see the "2" of POE. Where is the true link between the both game ?

Pillars 1: The Watcher is introduced and discovers the true nature of the gods.

Pillars 2: The Watcher has encounters with the gods and witnesses an event which threatens their continued existence.

Pillars 3: The Watcher (presumably) is instrumental in determining the future of the gods (and thus the future of Eora)

Edited July 27, 2018 by Achilles

[SimonCharming]

Except that many people seem to be confused about what the plot is.

The plot is not to stop Eothas from destroying the Wheel. The plot is to find out what Eothas is doing and get your soul back. The impact on the overarching plot is that you succeed in doing everything you set out to do.

 

 

What do you think "impact" means? The player only succeeds in everything they set out to do if those are indeed their only motivations. An RPG should allow the player some choice in that as well. That's the problem. The only guaranteed impetus for any of the Watcher's actions is getting shoved around by greater beings. "Chase Eothas because he has your soul." "Do what I tell you or I'll set off your spirit bomb." It's akin to a forced plot lead solely by Geas.

 

 

Another explanation is that a lot of people don’t know how to recognize basic structures of storytelling, identify themes, etc.

Which is fine. It’s also fine to say that this isn’t your cup of tea and that you’d prefer something else. It’s something else entirely to say that something fails to do X when it objectively does.

 

 

No, not rising to that bait. I will say that you're assuming much about other peoples' abilities to recognize storytelling and themes.

[AeonsLegend]

In Pillars Of Eternity 2 you determine which faction gains control of Ukaizo, and hence the fate(short term at least) of the whole archipelago- and possibly the world, since if the Wheel is rebuilt it'll presumably be on that faction's terms. Your interactions with your party members can determine their fates, and even how they feel about each other. When you speak to Eothas you can convince him to follow up the destruction of the Wheel in multiple ways- empower Berath, empower mortals, provide a home for lost souls. The only thing you can't do is prevent the destruction of the Wheel.

 

I am disappointed myself in the final conversation (it actually feels contrived to give the player too much agency- why did Eothas wait for me to get there before breaking the Wheel, and why does my opinion matter so much to him?) and in the way the ending slides don't really give much of an impression of the Wheel being rebuilt, but these cries of "nothing I did made a difference, I was just a spectator in the narrative" are getting a bit silly.

Sure, you're not a spectator, but I wouldn't say you're making a difference. The discovery of Ukaizo was already started before you were there to do it. It's like it was hardly a secret to begin with in all honesty. I found the discovery of Ukaizo, supposedly the biggest secret in Deadfire history which houses a frikking device build by the gods, incredibly lacklustre. Multiple factions including the Wizard circle were already on the verge of this discovery and merely nudged you a bit. Multiple factions would have found this location incredibly easily. In fact it only takes a single ship with a decent build to cross the storm. Anyone could have done it.

 

And sure you choose wchich faction takes control of Ukaizo. But who cares really? I mean really?

 

You point out things you affect, and we can't disagree on those points. But to go ahead and say those things are in any way meaningful or related to your character. Nah. The main story would have unfolded exactly the same way. And Ukaizo would have been discovered as well.

 

Nothing on the primary path of the story is engaging and pulls you towards a goal which you feel is YOUR goal. The only reason they put in to reach Ukaizo is because you follow Eothas. That is the most unimaginative uninteresting reason they could have thought up. Especially because following Eothas has no reason. And then you can't even affect (read: play a vital role) in what unfolds. You get to choose whether he hurts people a bit less? Great, I should have sent him a postcard at the start of the game with this instruction and do something meaningful with my time other than traveling to an Island I have NO stake in and following a God I have no reason to follow. Oh wait, he has part of my soul. Well the game really does make it so you endure hardship because of it. Oh... nevermind it doesn't at all. In fact you get to choice not to rejoin with your soul, so it doesn't really matter if you rejoin or not in this game.

 

It's not just that your character doesn't have any real impact on the story, it's also presented so poorly that by the end you care so little that you simply blind pick the options to get to the credits.

 

And to make it clear, I'm not talking about choices you make. Because in all honesty I don't really care about that and most games implement that so poorly that it just feels dumb. I'm talking about your character impacting the story and parts of that story revolving around your character. This game has very little of that.

Edited July 27, 2018 by AeonsLegend

[AeonsLegend]

 

 

 

I think the basis here is that we all expected to be able to make a difference. This is for me the main reason to do an epic journey in an RPG. If I'm completely honest I don't really see this in Deadfire. No one had any particular reason to be there or to follow Eothas and it didn't make a hoot of difference whether we did or not in the end. Might as well have stuck with my first choice in the game and tell Berath to piss off.

 

The problem I see here is not that we don't fight Eothas in the end, but that the story is setup in such a way that you expect you will. It is written in such a way that the only way to make a difference is actually to stop him and that is not what the writer wanted. If you ask me, that makes no sense. Did he want us to feel useless playing this game? If that was his aim at least have our pary "try soemthing" other than just following him around.

 

Of course you will still have people hating on it, just look at the latest avengers movie. But you can't say its for a lack of trying.

“Part 2’s” exist to move the story forward. They aren’t going to be as sexy as Part 1, where you get to meet everyone and find out what their superpowers are. Neither are they as satisfying as Part 3 where everything gets resolved and everyone gets to go home.

 

“Epic journeys” are what we get when all the parts are put together.

 

It's hard to reply to you since you're replying only to my superhero movies reference instead of this topic.

 

But if you create an RPG without an epic journey then you don't understand what an RPG is supposed to deliver. Having a part 2 should have no effect on the individual representation of a story per game.

 

Except I’m not. The Watcher becomes a Watcher and expands their powers throughout the first game (not necessarily referring to level-up here).

 

Of course each segment in the story needs to have a plot to resolve, but each of those segments come together to tell a larger story.

 

I probably misunderstood you and you simply agreed with my original post. I was assuming you disagreed and you were giving counteragruments, but rereading my post and yours we are talking about completely different aspects of the same topic.

[Rheios]

Reading the thread and thinking about it, before you go to meet Eothas its definitely made clear you can't beat him (although due to most convention, I can see how people could have taken that as a narrative falsity). Hell the other Gods don't think they can take him even if they absorb all the Godtouched souls and dogpile him. I have no idea *why* that's the case, as he's one god with a bunch of souls he's burning through the power of to even get to Ukaizo by that point and can't be on the top of his game. But sure, we'll accept they're as helpless as they think they are. But the whole time you *do* keep getting told that Eothas may listen to you, nay - probably will listen to *only you* as a fully knowledgeable representative of the kith, about his actions with the wheel. Even going so far as to give you the option to tell Berath, when asked how you want things to change or move forward, that you want things to just stay as they are. Sure she says to consider it more, that the choice may be up to you and that you should think about how to improve things, but that's vague enough to mislead from "no, you'll really be helpless in the greater scheme of things - you can't maintain the wheel or even improve it".

All those final conversations made it obvious to me that I couldn't fight Eothas, and that if I disagreed (maybe that wasn't the "mission" but by that point the mission of discovery and soul-recovery is over and you're still hanging around, ostensibly to grant your opinion to Eothas) and wanted him to not damage the wheel that I'd need to convince him or be convinced by him enough to agree and then grant an opinion how he might help the future of things.  Of course neither happened on that character. Eothas is as convincing as when a superior at work used tells you that you "wouldn't understand" (try ball-parking how this works, with some work shown for me, you colossal green ****), and you can't try and further argue with him. Heck you never *really* get to argue with him. You can lodge your complaint at Magran's volcano but the giant explosion cuts much more conversation short and you never get a chance to pick back up with him. Overall I'd say Anti-god Eder has more argument dialogue with Eothas than you really do, or at least more pointedly shoots out his hypocrisy, and then Eothas just blows him off, so you'd probably not be much more different. Its just a bit of a trip-up since everyone seems to talk like you should have more impact for some unknown reason.  If anything I've grown pretty happy with the suicide option as I've thought more about it. Living in Eothas' world seems too willing to entertain the fancies of that egotistical man-child - although its a little like cutting of your nose to spite your own face, maybe. Still, that character genuinely didn't think kith were as advanced as Eothas seemed to believe, and having an eternal dreamy afterlife was probably better for him than the slow entropy that would doom the rest. The dreaming waking and sleeping loop's at least a cycle for him, as a priest of Berath.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Rheios

[AeonsLegend]

Reading the thread and thinking about it, before you go to meet Eothas its definitely made clear you can't beat him (although due to most convention, I can see how people could have taken that as a narrative falsity). Hell the other Gods don't think they can take him even if they absorb all the Godtouched souls and dogpile him. I have no idea *why* that's the case, as he's one god with a bunch of souls he's burning through the power of to even get to Ukaizo by that point and can't be on the top of his game. But sure, we'll accept they're as helpless as they think they are. But the whole time you *do* keep getting told that Eothas may listen to you, nay - probably will listen to *only you* as a fully knowledgeable representative of the kith, about his actions with the wheel. Even going so far as to give you the option to tell Berath, when asked how you want things to change or move forward, that you want things to just stay as they are. Sure she says to consider it more, that the choice may be up to you and that you should think about how to improve things, but that's vague enough to mislead from "no, you'll really be helpless in the greater scheme of things - you can't maintain the wheel or even improve it".

 

All those final conversations made it obvious to me that I couldn't fight Eothas, and that if I disagreed (maybe that wasn't the "mission" but by that point the mission of discovery and soul-recovery is over and you're still hanging around, ostensibly to grant your opinion to Eothas) and wanted him to not damage the wheel that I'd need to convince him or be convinced by him enough to agree and then grant an opinion how he might help the future of things.  Of course neither happened on that character. Eothas is as convincing as when a superior at work used tells you that you "wouldn't understand" (try ball-parking how this works, with some work shown for me, you colossal green ****), and you can't try and further argue with him. Heck you never *really* get to argue with him. You can lodge your complaint at Magran's volcano but the giant explosion cuts much more conversation short and you never get a chance to pick back up with him. Overall I'd say Anti-god Eder has more argument dialogue with Eothas than you really do, or at least more pointedly shoots out his hypocrisy, and then Eothas just blows him off, so you'd probably not be much more different. Its just a bit of a trip-up since everyone seems to talk like you should have more impact for some unknown reason.  If anything I've grown pretty happy with the suicide option as I've thought more about it. Living in Eothas' world seems too willing to entertain the fancies of that egotistical man-child - although its a little like cutting of your nose to spite your own face, maybe. Still, that character genuinely didn't think kith were as advanced as Eothas seemed to believe, and having an eternal dreamy afterlife was probably better for him than the slow entropy that would doom the rest. The dreaming waking and sleeping loop's at least a cycle for him, as a priest of Berath.

So you're saying the story is basically following around Trump, but rather killing yourself. I can dig that.

[Rheios]

 

Reading the thread and thinking about it, before you go to meet Eothas its definitely made clear you can't beat him (although due to most convention, I can see how people could have taken that as a narrative falsity). Hell the other Gods don't think they can take him even if they absorb all the Godtouched souls and dogpile him. I have no idea *why* that's the case, as he's one god with a bunch of souls he's burning through the power of to even get to Ukaizo by that point and can't be on the top of his game. But sure, we'll accept they're as helpless as they think they are. But the whole time you *do* keep getting told that Eothas may listen to you, nay - probably will listen to *only you* as a fully knowledgeable representative of the kith, about his actions with the wheel. Even going so far as to give you the option to tell Berath, when asked how you want things to change or move forward, that you want things to just stay as they are. Sure she says to consider it more, that the choice may be up to you and that you should think about how to improve things, but that's vague enough to mislead from "no, you'll really be helpless in the greater scheme of things - you can't maintain the wheel or even improve it".

 

All those final conversations made it obvious to me that I couldn't fight Eothas, and that if I disagreed (maybe that wasn't the "mission" but by that point the mission of discovery and soul-recovery is over and you're still hanging around, ostensibly to grant your opinion to Eothas) and wanted him to not damage the wheel that I'd need to convince him or be convinced by him enough to agree and then grant an opinion how he might help the future of things.  Of course neither happened on that character. Eothas is as convincing as when a superior at work used tells you that you "wouldn't understand" (try ball-parking how this works, with some work shown for me, you colossal green ****), and you can't try and further argue with him. Heck you never *really* get to argue with him. You can lodge your complaint at Magran's volcano but the giant explosion cuts much more conversation short and you never get a chance to pick back up with him. Overall I'd say Anti-god Eder has more argument dialogue with Eothas than you really do, or at least more pointedly shoots out his hypocrisy, and then Eothas just blows him off, so you'd probably not be much more different. Its just a bit of a trip-up since everyone seems to talk like you should have more impact for some unknown reason.  If anything I've grown pretty happy with the suicide option as I've thought more about it. Living in Eothas' world seems too willing to entertain the fancies of that egotistical man-child - although its a little like cutting of your nose to spite your own face, maybe. Still, that character genuinely didn't think kith were as advanced as Eothas seemed to believe, and having an eternal dreamy afterlife was probably better for him than the slow entropy that would doom the rest. The dreaming waking and sleeping loop's at least a cycle for him, as a priest of Berath.

So you're saying the story is basically following around Trump, but rather killing yourself. I can dig that.

 

Not quite. Eothas isn't caught in nearly as many blatant lies. He's just blind to his own hypocrisy and, for some reason, you can't really point it out to him yourself and Eder gets blown off when he tries. I can kindof see the parallels with that sentence though. Less politically, and more seriously, Eothas's actions legitimately make me question his status as a positive deity compared to even Woedica. *WOEDICA*. Eothas in Deadfire was someone I liked at least on the same level, if not less, than my former most voted 'hypocritical bs deity'. And that's for me, not for my character which I describe below. I can kindof respect Woedica just doing her job as leadership, justice, and vengeance and all that - were it not for her actions not being good leadership, just, or reasonable vengeance of any kind - but Eothas from the moment I heard of him was just chaining together sins against his station, portfolio, and presentation from the onset and when you finally might get a chance for deeper insight why its because of poorly supported guilt over hiding a truth and in complete dismissal of the thousands and perhaps billions his actions will be killing all so he can sleep a bit better at night. (If he sleeps) If he was presented as a heroic but misguided/deceived figure (maybe from another god doing their job at being less savory), maybe, but here he just seems like a really apologetic alcoholic who keeps killing your pets with his car.  

 

And  primarily only the offing himself on that character. I have other characters working through the game, who will be more flexible, who might have to bend to Eothas's power, and still want to keep doing as they do. That character, with his devotion to Berath and what he saw as his duty, means he was pretty stoic and rational but ultimately rather inflexible in his stubbornness.  As I said before, he was a bad character for that interaction. Eothas was either going to have to *genuinely* convince him that it was better for Berath, kith, and the wheel, and not just with lip service but with genuine explanations of improvements vs costs and his full reasoning, listen to him say his full piece and pull back slightly (or hold off) on breaking the wheel until that discussion could happen, or kill him. Ankou was just not going to bend a knee on that issue. Hell if Eothas had asked him to go get each faction's opinion and been pleasant and willing to debate then he probably would have done it - (seriously, would have totally taken the bait, had it been a manipulation) being at least respectful to the gods usually, if only subservient to Berath - but just flat out destroying the wheel and deciding everything without feedback, input, or respect for the kith he was ostensibly "saving" OR those kiths' souls - blatantly offloading their responsibility on people like Xoti (seriously Eothas, Xoti?) -  was outside anything he considered respectful, rational, wise, sane, redemptive, or remotely survivable. 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Rheios

[Guest]

What do you think "impact" means? The player only succeeds in everything they set out to do if those are indeed their only motivations.

motivation != plot

 

An RPG should allow the player some choice in that as well.

You do. You’re free to not follow Eothas. You’re free to try to stop him too. You’re just not free to have whatever ending you seem to think they should have given you (remembering that you don’t appear to care that they may have something in mind for Pillars 3)

 

That's the problem. The only guaranteed impetus for any of the Watcher's actions is getting shoved around by greater beings. "Chase Eothas because he has your soul." "Do what I tell you or I'll set off your spirit bomb." It's akin to a forced plot lead solely by Geas.

Right because no other RPG plop you into a specific setting, give you some objective to accomplish, then craft a main quest that you are dutifully expected to complete in some fashion in order to “finish the game”

[SimonCharming]

A plot that neither accounts for - nor derives from - realistic character motivations is a hollow thing. Citing freedom to not follow Eothas or to spectacularly fail in any attempt to stop him is intellectually dishonest; you might as well say "You're free to just turn off the game." While true, it only serves to deflect criticism, not dispute it. 

 

Other RPGs expect the player to complete quests and participate in the story, but few of them would resolve the same way without player intervention. Take Pillars of Eternity. Your character must find a way to control their Awakening before they lose their mind. On the surface it looks similar to Deadfire's plot device of retrieving your soul, but there are crucial differences: Most importantly, your character's Awakening is entirely unique. You were Thaos' personal inquisitor. No one else could have been in your place or Awakened the way you did, and if you fail to pursue him, his plan succeeds. If you intervene, you actually stop him. You are a central figure in the plot.

 

Now let's look at Deadfire. You're a Watcher in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's it. That's the only thing special about you. If you refuse Berath, she turns you into a squirrel and goes off to find some other Watcher. You do not matter. Moreover, even if she doesn't find another Watcher while you're off gathering acorns, nothing would change anyway. Eothas will still do whatever he wants and succeed at whatever he wants. Deadfire's plot is unique in that the entire thing would resolve the exact same way, even if your character doesn't participate!

[Camonge]

 

Another explanation is that a lot of people don’t know how to recognize basic structures of storytelling, identify themes, etc.

 

Which is fine. It’s also fine to say that this isn’t your cup of tea and that you’d prefer something else. It’s something else entirely to say that something fails to do X when it objectively does.

 

 

Maybe you should lecture josh about "how to recognize basic structures of storytelling, identify themes etc."

 

Because he explicitly said "after you know what he's doing, your goal is to influence how he ends things".

[Guest]

A plot that neither accounts for - nor derives from - realistic character motivations is a hollow thing. Citing freedom to not follow Eothas or to spectacularly fail in any attempt to stop him is intellectually dishonest; you might as well say "You're free to just turn off the game." While true, it only serves to deflect criticism, not dispute it.

 

Other RPGs expect the player to complete quests and participate in the story, but few of them would resolve the same way without player intervention. Take Pillars of Eternity. Your character must find a way to control their Awakening before they lose their mind. On the surface it looks similar to Deadfire's plot device of retrieving your soul, but there are crucial differences: Most importantly, your character's Awakening is entirely unique. You were Thaos' personal inquisitor. No one else could have been in your place or Awakened the way you did, and if you fail to pursue him, his plan succeeds. If you intervene, you actually stop him. You are a central figure in the plot.

 

Now let's look at Deadfire. You're a Watcher in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's it. That's the only thing special about you. If you refuse Berath, she turns you into a squirrel and goes off to find some other Watcher. You do not matter. Moreover, even if she doesn't find another Watcher while you're off gathering acorns, nothing would change anyway. Eothas will still do whatever he wants and succeed at whatever he wants. Deadfire's plot is unique in that the entire thing would resolve the exact same way, even if your character doesn't participate!

This posts makes perfect sense...if you think that the plot is to stop Eothas. As I have tried (for many posts now) to point out, it’s not. I have no reason to think one more attempt is going to add anything Edited July 28, 2018 by Achilles

[Wodehouse_44]

I have to agree with a lot that @AeonsLegend said. Personally, my motivation throughout the entire game was getting my charcter's soul, and taking care of his companions. Then the soul doesn't even matter, and the factions take the wind out of the sails of friendship and romance (which seemingly account for very little). It's like every motivation that a player might find for the main story, is negated by a later plot point. It's kind of hilarious.

 

[Gromnir]

 

And sure you choose wchich faction takes control of Ukaizo. But who cares really? I mean really?

 

as we noted earlier, the 'bove isn't genuine related to thread topic, but am thinking obsidian deserves credit for the faction implementation in deadfire.  perfect? not by any means, but check out all the threads wherein folks is debating the merits o' each faction and how tough were to choose since they all were smarmy and or repugnant in some way.  much quality gameplay involving factions and while ultimately you get to ukaizo regardless, we cannot deny we felt as if we were making a tough and significant choice as we decided 'tween factions.

 

as an aside, we will note rauatai is actual the only reasonable choice with admission personal we went pirate for our first run-- wanted the ghost ship and didn't wanna lose certain joinables from our party. regardless, rauatai is the folks who got their act together and offer most potential for improving life in the deadfire... though am not surprised Gromnir seems in extreme minority who advocate for rauatai control o' the deadfire. 

 

 

again, am thinking obsidian deserves credit for factions, and for much other stuff in deadfire.  even so, recognition o' obsidian accomplishments do not in anyway change our feelings 'bout fundamental narrative shortcomings with, due to the focus o' this thread,  a particular emphasis on curious way in which the game resolution were handled.  heck, we ain't even in the group o' folks who were flummoxed by the deadfire story-- we got what obsidian were doing with eothas and the wheel.  even so, for reasons already stated ad nauseum by Gromnir, we cannot help but believe the deadfire narrative as a whole were mishandled. coulda' been a better game, but woulda' required basic framework/approach kinda alterations.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 28, 2018 by Gromnir

[topologista]

i mean if you like you can take the "No, we fight!" dialogue option, get your soul sucked out, and just never reload that character. 

[house2fly]

If you take the "main plot" as being the parts involving Eothas specifically (though the game considers the main plot to be your interactions with the factions, with Eothas and Ukaizo just being something for all the faction stuff to accrete around, which is why the final boss battle is against the leader of another faction and the party member who was allied with them) then you still have influence over Eothas (though "bear witness" having the same effect as "think of the souls" sucks). As for "anyone could reach Ukaizo" sure, but the Watcher does reach Ukaizo, and slays the Guardian, and turns off the storms. It's not as cool as defeating Thaos but it's still pretty cool to be the first to set foot in the lost city

[Guest]

As for "anyone could reach Ukaizo" sure

You're much quicker to accept this premise than I am.

 

Eothas inhabited the giant adra statue under YOUR keep. The fact that YOU have a strong soul is the only thing that provides even a ghost of a chance for survival. Luckily, YOUR keep has a soulbound steward who was able to spring to action, using YOUR vast wealth to acquire a ship to follow Eothas. Thanks to YOUR previous interactions with the gods, YOU get tapped to track down Eothas. YOUR reputation influences factions leading to companions to help you on this journey, etc, etc.

 

So yeah, sorry if I don't agree that ANYBODY could have done this, as SimonCharming suggests.

[Tick]

I was kind of hoping this kind of conversation would die because it really does feel like it adds negativity to the community as a whole (and maybe discourage parts or all of Obsidian if they actually read this), but since it hasn't, and I have a keyboard now, I guess I may as well try to say something.

 

This game wasn't about stopping Eothas, it was about understanding what he was doing, how you felt about what he was doing, and what the hell everyone was going to do about the consequences. It's a huge set-up for Pillars of Eternity 3.

 

I think people, to some extent understandably, didn't feel enough satisfaction or catharsis from the Eothas plotline.  I didn't feel 100% satisfaction, and I honestly adore both the game and the core of the main plot.  But I don't think stopping Eothas, or even successfully convincing him to not break the wheel, would have made the ending more satisfying or clear to people, and the large majority of players would probably have broken the wheel themselves if they understood the potential consequences.  Considering how many hate the gods and the abusive system they perpetuate.

 

I think the problem is the lack of content (maybe context?) and opportunity to understand what Eothas is doing and why.  He does touch on it multiple times, but it's so briefly and with such little chance to absorb it, that it doesn't feel like you had a real conversation.  And while you can briefly argue or criticize the way he's sucking up souls, you can't argue the merits of his wheel-breaking plans.  And Josh has even mentioned that there is dialogue cut out of the game that explains what will happen as a result of breaking the wheel, which left a lot of people (including myself) confused unless they found some outside information. 

 

I don't think the problem with this plot is that you don't have enough agency - not in the way people are saying.  The main beats are fine as is.  The game just needed to give the player more time to hash it out with the big adra statue, and give the player more opportunity to try and talk things out with Eothas.  If Eothas cares so much about our opinions, we should be able to talk about this kind of stuff more, even if he decides to stay on the path after thinking it over.

[AeonsLegend]

 

As for "anyone could reach Ukaizo" sure

You're much quicker to accept this premise than I am.

 

Eothas inhabited the giant adra statue under YOUR keep. The fact that YOU have a strong soul is the only thing that provides even a ghost of a chance for survival. Luckily, YOUR keep has a soulbound steward who was able to spring to action, using YOUR vast wealth to acquire a ship to follow Eothas. Thanks to YOUR previous interactions with the gods, YOU get tapped to track down Eothas. YOUR reputation influences factions leading to companions to help you on this journey, etc, etc.

 

So yeah, sorry if I don't agree that ANYBODY could have done this, as SimonCharming suggests.

 

The game doesn't mention or require a watcher to be on board for the trip to Ukaizo. It only requires a set of strong sails and hull. Factions are also not required. There's a guy who managed to complete the game in about 20 minutes by gathering some cash, buying the ship options and then sailing straight to Ukaizo. Granted, that was some patches ago.

 

But that's all game mechanics. If you use your grey mass you can surmise the same. I mean, the only thing Ukaizo is protected by is the storm. And storms can and will be crossed. Having a Deus Ex Machina backstory is not required. The Watcher is not required. Sure he/she survives and has a strong soul, but that doesn't matter.

 

In the end Eothas destroys the wheel whether you followed him or not. It doesn't make a hoot of difference. Absolutely nothing changes other than him being a tad bit more benevolent. And the discovery of Ukaizo is ultimately not relevant either, because you have no real impact on what unfolds there anyway. Might as well have stayed at home and let the other factions take a few more weeks or months to discover Ukaizo on their own. You could have been rebuilding your keep in the meantime instead of going on this wild goose chase that ultimately leads you nowhere. Like I said in my earlier statement, I don't care about the discovery of Ukaizo or local mundane politics of the Deadfire. The factions are stale, boring and stock.

Edited July 28, 2018 by AeonsLegend

[AeonsLegend]

I was kind of hoping this kind of conversation would die because it really does feel like it adds negativity to the community as a whole (and maybe discourage parts or all of Obsidian if they actually read this), but since it hasn't, and I have a keyboard now, I guess I may as well try to say something.

 

This game wasn't about stopping Eothas, it was about understanding what he was doing, how you felt about what he was doing, and what the hell everyone was going to do about the consequences. It's a huge set-up for Pillars of Eternity 3.

 

I think people, to some extent understandably, didn't feel enough satisfaction or catharsis from the Eothas plotline.  I didn't feel 100% satisfaction, and I honestly adore both the game and the core of the main plot.  But I don't think stopping Eothas, or even successfully convincing him to not break the wheel, would have made the ending more satisfying or clear to people, and the large majority of players would probably have broken the wheel themselves if they understood the potential consequences.  Considering how many hate the gods and the abusive system they perpetuate.

 

I think the problem is the lack of content (maybe context?) and opportunity to understand what Eothas is doing and why.  He does touch on it multiple times, but it's so briefly and with such little chance to absorb it, that it doesn't feel like you had a real conversation.  And while you can briefly argue or criticize the way he's sucking up souls, you can't argue the merits of his wheel-breaking plans.  And Josh has even mentioned that there is dialogue cut out of the game that explains what will happen as a result of breaking the wheel, which left a lot of people (including myself) confused unless they found some outside information. 

 

I don't think the problem with this plot is that you don't have enough agency - not in the way people are saying.  The main beats are fine as is.  The game just needed to give the player more time to hash it out with the big adra statue, and give the player more opportunity to try and talk things out with Eothas.  If Eothas cares so much about our opinions, we should be able to talk about this kind of stuff more, even if he decides to stay on the path after thinking it over.

I think you're wrong. I think criticism ultimately leads to better products. Sure not every piece of criticism is constructive or supportive, but that's part of how such a discussion unfolds. Don't you think Obsidian understands this as well?

 

And in all honesty if everyone had the opinion of "I like what I have now" then nothing new would ever be created.

 

I also agree with what you are saying. And I think the game could have done a little more with giving the watcher an incentive and in that way the player. Like in Skyrim the player has no incentive to do any of the work or quests layed out before him. That is just poor quality writing. Ultimately in the end the story matters less than story telling. In this case I feel story telling, ie. involving you in the story and pulling you in, is completely lacking. If anything needs to change in future installments then that is it. Like it has been stated in other topics. A big cause here is the open world environment, but even in such a case you can be more directive of what is happening.

Edited July 28, 2018 by AeonsLegend

[SimonCharming]

I was kind of hoping this kind of conversation would die because it really does feel like it adds negativity to the community as a whole (and maybe discourage parts or all of Obsidian if they actually read this), but since it hasn't, and I have a keyboard now, I guess I may as well try to say something.

 

This game wasn't about stopping Eothas, it was about understanding what he was doing, how you felt about what he was doing, and what the hell everyone was going to do about the consequences. It's a huge set-up for Pillars of Eternity 3.

 

I think people, to some extent understandably, didn't feel enough satisfaction or catharsis from the Eothas plotline.  I didn't feel 100% satisfaction, and I honestly adore both the game and the core of the main plot.  But I don't think stopping Eothas, or even successfully convincing him to not break the wheel, would have made the ending more satisfying or clear to people, and the large majority of players would probably have broken the wheel themselves if they understood the potential consequences.  Considering how many hate the gods and the abusive system they perpetuate.

 

I think the problem is the lack of content (maybe context?) and opportunity to understand what Eothas is doing and why.  He does touch on it multiple times, but it's so briefly and with such little chance to absorb it, that it doesn't feel like you had a real conversation.  And while you can briefly argue or criticize the way he's sucking up souls, you can't argue the merits of his wheel-breaking plans.  And Josh has even mentioned that there is dialogue cut out of the game that explains what will happen as a result of breaking the wheel, which left a lot of people (including myself) confused unless they found some outside information. 

 

I don't think the problem with this plot is that you don't have enough agency - not in the way people are saying.  The main beats are fine as is.  The game just needed to give the player more time to hash it out with the big adra statue, and give the player more opportunity to try and talk things out with Eothas.  If Eothas cares so much about our opinions, we should be able to talk about this kind of stuff more, even if he decides to stay on the path after thinking it over.

 

I don't think a discussion of this sort inherently breeds negativity. It doesn't have to. This is a specific topic that I have specific opinions about. It does not reflect on the positive opinions I hold towards the game's faction conflict, combat system, character-building mechanics, or any of the other numerous aspects I enjoy. My criticism is towards the Eothas storyline itself, not its author nor its advocates. I will admit I take issue with the assertion that anyone who finds the deity conflict flawed lacks the ability to recognize proper storytelling or themes.

 

If the plot is meant to set up Pillars of Eternity 3, then I certainly hope we get it. Game development has many pitfalls; banking satisfactory resolution on a sequel that may never be released is questionable. I've seen it happen with episodic titles I became invested in. Obviously what's done is done, but the point of feedback is letting your thoughts and concerns be heard. I'm looking forward to Beast of Winter and the following DLCs. I'm looking forward to a potential sequel. I like the game and the series, whether others believe it or not. I'm just stating my opinion on a specific aspect of Deadfire.

Edited July 28, 2018 by SimonCharming

[Guest]

In the end Eothas destroys the wheel whether you followed him or not. It doesn't make a hoot of difference.

...which doesn’t matter because the point of the game isn’t to stop him.