Critique nr. two. Short dungeons.

[Walkyr]

Hello.

 

Like topic says.

 

Where are big long and multiple levels dungeons?

 

In PoE 1 i have fun in exploring big dungeons in some moments.

 

In PoE 2 we have very short dungeons.

 

Exploring big and long dungeons is very rewarding.

 

There is a very satisfying feeling after finish big dungeon. I dont know how to describe this but i know that most people know what i am talking about.

 

Guys please tell me what are you thinking about this.

[anathanielh]

I actually prefer the shorter dungeons as there are less encounters that seem like filler (at least with the DD mod).

I just wish they disable resting in dungeons in order to make injuries come into play more. (Right now I just tell myself not to use resting in dungeons, but an option to disable it in the menu would be nice)

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

No per rest mechanic, no need for long dungeon crawls. 

[InsaneCommander]

I actually prefer the shorter dungeons as there are less encounters that seem like filler (at least with the DD mod).

I just wish they disable resting in dungeons in order to make injuries come into play more. (Right now I just tell myself not to use resting in dungeons, but an option to disable it in the menu would be nice)

 

We need dungeons like the very first one in PoE1: you enter and the entrance collapses. You don't know how big it is and if you couldn't rest things would get interesting.

[anathanielh]

 

I actually prefer the shorter dungeons as there are less encounters that seem like filler (at least with the DD mod).

I just wish they disable resting in dungeons in order to make injuries come into play more. (Right now I just tell myself not to use resting in dungeons, but an option to disable it in the menu would be nice)

We need dungeons like the very first one in PoE1: you enter and the entrance collapses. You don't know how big it is and if you couldn't rest things would get interesting.

That would be cool. Especially on Iron Man mode.

[algroth]

I believe there's a good middle-ground to be found between both, really. I believe long dungeons get boring pretty quickly if all there is to them and to the general exploration is a bunch of rooms and corridors holding trash mobs and a couple of traps, whilst short dungeons can also feel very unsatisfactory due to their sheer length. But short dungeons can also provide a few breathers between the larger and more multi-levelled dungeons, or be interesting and fun on their own if they work upon a very specific and interesting gameplay concept. The sandswept ruins are a clear example of this, for me. But I do agree that I feel some quests would have been better served with more expansive and challenging dungeons the likes of Poko Kohara: the business on the Watershaper's Guild or the quests involving the animancers being some prime examples of this, because they feel pretty relevant within the faction arcs and so on, and instead due to their brevity seem to play more as quick tasks instead.

 

 

But all the same there's a number of rather expansive 'dungeons' in the game all the same, if you widen the scope on what constitutes a dungeon. Poko Kohara, Crookspur/Ori o Koiki, Deadfire Fort, Arkemyr's Manor, the Old City, all of these offer some pretty beefy multi-level zones potentially full of enemies, and which to my mind also succeed because a few at least offer options other than dealing with a whole bunch of hostiles. These are fun to play through. But I agree that a few more would have been ideal, especially in given moments in the game (also we gotta call out the lack of one such dungeon at the very end which, to my mind, is a little egregious considering the buildup to Ukaizo and how little we get to see of it when all is said and done).

 

[vanyel54]

Seems logical to remove big dungeons if you remove any attrition system. A big step in the wrong direction in my book.

In deadfire too many areas seem small and empty.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

There are a few longer dungeons -- Nemnok's caverns, one or two other places. 

 

Unfortunately there's only one Endless Paths.

[Chris S]

Obsidian has become institutionally incompetent when they've got to the point that making a BG2 clone without dungeons somehow seems a good idea.

 

It's absurd, and the studio has lost it's core competence.

[Grimo88]

Hello.

 

Like topic says.

 

Where are big long and multiple levels dungeons?

 

In PoE 1 i have fun in exploring big dungeons in some moments.

 

In PoE 2 we have very short dungeons.

 

Exploring big and long dungeons is very rewarding.

 

There is a very satisfying feeling after finish big dungeon. I dont know how to describe this but i know that most people know what i am talking about.

 

Guys please tell me what are you thinking about this.

 

Matter of taste. I hated Endless Paths with a passion and I skip it in favour of White March every time.

 

Ideal dungeons for me are multi-solution ones like Deadlight and Raedric's Hold, or ones with 2 meaty levels like Durgan's Battery. 

[Grimo88]

Obsidian has become institutionally incompetent when they've got to the point that making a BG2 clone without dungeons somehow seems a good idea.

 

It's absurd, and the studio has lost it's core competence.

 

its* 

[dukeisaac]

Obsidian has become institutionally incompetent when they've got to the point that making a BG2 clone without dungeons somehow seems a good idea.

 

It's absurd, and the studio has lost it's core competence.

Nice necro

[misterjimmy]

 

Hello.

 

Like topic says.

 

Where are big long and multiple levels dungeons?

 

In PoE 1 i have fun in exploring big dungeons in some moments.

 

In PoE 2 we have very short dungeons.

 

Exploring big and long dungeons is very rewarding.

 

There is a very satisfying feeling after finish big dungeon. I dont know how to describe this but i know that most people know what i am talking about.

 

Guys please tell me what are you thinking about this.

 

Matter of taste. I hated Endless Paths with a passion and I skip it in favour of White March every time.

 

Ideal dungeons for me are multi-solution ones like Deadlight and Raedric's Hold, or ones with 2 meaty levels like Durgan's Battery. 

 

Agreed, I hope POE 2 dungeon can like durgan's battery. And also They should add some interesting puzzle since POE doesn't have any challenging puzzle.

[Zaris]

In my opinion shorter dungeons and almost no per-rest abilities are both great changes since in PoE all expeditions quickly changed into camping trips with more time spent around campfire than exploring/fighting. If somebody likes mindless grinding of mob after mob there are plenty of nice MMORPGs for them, but isometric RPGs should allow for a smarter (or at least more varied) approach; Fort Deadlight and Arkemyr’s Mansion are two prime examples of a clever dungeon where you can just have a number of encounters and traps but also can solve it a number of different ways. So I can’t thank Obsidian enough for making the regular fighting dungeons shorter, since they have always been the worst part of their games: Endless Paths in PoE, Oldwalls in Tyranny and those motherf***ing Vaults in New Vegas. Many times I was inches from just lowering the difficulty to breeze through that tedious parts and go back to having fun and doing interesting quests.

But as I said at the beginning that’s just my opinion.

[Sherab]

I can understand people who simply likes a lot of fighting at every corner, and simply to clear-out dungeons. But I do not belong to them. I preffer shorter ones as a rule of thumb.

 

However, I can appreciate some bigger-ones if they are smartly designed (multi-solution, multi-ways), offer really unique enemies and/or loot. And prefereably, they should be (for me) "supported" by good story.

 

But from my perspective, there shouldn't be too much of such bigger dungs. And there is a point, when they become really too big - like Endless Paths in first PoE.

[Verde]

DLC3

[bringingyouthefuture]

In my opinion shorter dungeons and almost no per-rest abilities are both great changes since in PoE all expeditions quickly changed into camping trips with more time spent around campfire than exploring/fighting. If somebody likes mindless grinding of mob after mob there are plenty of nice MMORPGs for them, but isometric RPGs should allow for a smarter (or at least more varied) approach; Fort Deadlight and Arkemyr’s Mansion are two prime examples of a clever dungeon where you can just have a number of encounters and traps but also can solve it a number of different ways. So I can’t thank Obsidian enough for making the regular fighting dungeons shorter, since they have always been the worst part of their games: Endless Paths in PoE, Oldwalls in Tyranny and those motherf***ing Vaults in New Vegas. Many times I was inches from just lowering the difficulty to breeze through that tedious parts and go back to having fun and doing interesting quests.

But as I said at the beginning that’s just my opinion.

NOOOOO!!!! The Oldwalls were some of my favorite dungeon experiences ever - man the way they were a mystery lore-wise and enemy-wise with awesome treasure made my day!!! Blasphemy!!!! 

 

And yes the developers said DLC3 ...

Edited September 26, 2018 by aaronghowell

[rjshae]

The ideal dungeon has three levels: adapting to the new environment, working through obstacles while managing resources, and dealing with the leader(s).

[Messier-31]

 

Critique nr. two. Short dungeons.

 

Praise no. 2. Short dungeons.

[Aleh1811]

I guess everyone feels different about this. I belong to the crowd that prefers long dungeons, per rest abilities and penalties for resting so that you are forced to do some resource managing to achieve your objective. How long they are really depends, for me, on loading screen optimization. If the load screens are too long, a multi layer dungeon becomes insufferable, if there are no loading screen, or extremely short, the long dungeons becomes very fun.

[cokane]

In my opinion shorter dungeons and almost no per-rest abilities are both great changes since in PoE all expeditions quickly changed into camping trips with more time spent around campfire than exploring/fighting. If somebody likes mindless grinding of mob after mob there are plenty of nice MMORPGs for them, but isometric RPGs should allow for a smarter (or at least more varied) approach; Fort Deadlight and Arkemyr’s Mansion are two prime examples of a clever dungeon where you can just have a number of encounters and traps but also can solve it a number of different ways. So I can’t thank Obsidian enough for making the regular fighting dungeons shorter, since they have always been the worst part of their games: Endless Paths in PoE, Oldwalls in Tyranny and those motherf***ing Vaults in New Vegas. Many times I was inches from just lowering the difficulty to breeze through that tedious parts and go back to having fun and doing interesting quests.

But as I said at the beginning that’s just my opinion.

 

I'll never understand the criticism "more time spent around campfire than exploring/fighting." It's completely untrue from any player's experience. Camping in PoE or any of these games takes seconds.

[Aleh1811]

My guess is that what people dont like is being penalized with time. In pillars one (mind you i have still not played the second one) when you ran out of camping supplies you had to go back to buy new ones. All you did was waste time to go back to the town and then back again to the dungeon.

 

I think the penalty should be anything but time, you should loose either money (a lot) or experience or loot for resting inside a dungeon. It should be something that you really dont want to do, but can save your ass in a bad situation at great cost. That way it would be more interesting.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Aleh1811

[Wormerine]

I guess everyone feels different about this. I belong to the crowd that prefers long dungeons, per rest abilities and penalties for resting so that you are forced to do some resource managing to achieve your objective.

That sounds fun! I would play that. But Deadfire comes from tradition of IE games which had none of it.

 

Long term resource management - good

Per encounter resource management - good

Fake long term resource management, which requires players do self-imposed challenge to make the system any fun - bad.

 

What Deadfire does is great. I would like if for the next installement Obs would swing into the other direction.

[Aleh1811]

IE games only lacked penalties for resting, but in my opinion that was a bad choice.

[algroth]

IE games only lacked penalties for resting, but in my opinion that was a bad choice.

 

We've discussed this a bit in other threads, but as far as I'm concerned the lack of a relevant risk or penalty really makes the whole resting mechanic redundant. When you can virtually rest anywhere at any time there's no reason why you'd ever make sure you were using what spells and abilities you needed only, since in the end resting is merely a button away. I think that of the IE games and its spiritual successors, the only one which seems to have found a proper risk to resting is actually Mask of the Betrayer, whereby the spirit-eater mechanic presented a very convincing reason to why you would want to avoid resting as much as possible, and therefore made resource management relevant again. Beyond that, the only real incentive I've usually come across is more oriented to in-combat resource management - e.g. using all your AoE burst against a team with plenty of healing from the very get-go might be a bad idea if it's not enough to drop the healers and so on, and you might want to keep hold of them till after the opponents lose access to those resources and so on. In which case, per-encounter resources is really all that is needed.

 

Generally speaking I find that the fans of vancian casting are usually either fans of the tabletop games or the more determined IE traditionalists... But in the latter case I've always viewed the application of vancian casting in those games to be akin to an appendage left from the haphazard translation of tabletop mechanics to a videogame medium, whereas with regards to the tabletop experience the act of resting was usually mediated by a party and a human DM and where time and many other menial parts of life aren't necessarily as abstract as with videogames, in my experience anyhow. If the application of resting and vancian casting is applied the way it was with the IE games and Pillars, I don't see why one can't merely automate it and how that wouldn't just be another quality-of-life enhancement the way getting rid of inventory management and the likes have as well.

Edited September 28, 2018 by algroth