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Veolfen

Make single classes stronger : Fix power level

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Right now, most of the single classes are outclassed by multiclasses by a large margin (except for wizards, but they are the strongest class in the game since release anyway). And i think it can be fixed by pretty much tweaking how the power level works.


The thing is, single classes have for selling point the fact they get more "power level", but on a lot of them, except getting a slightly higher buff/debuff duration for their skills, it doesn't do much more.
Power level should increase the damages of all the damaging abilities in the game for exemple, so many classes like barbarian or ranger could get a nice scaling on them so they don't need to rely on an other class ability (meaning they're almost forced to multiclass)

Power level need to have a slightly higher impact overall, on every classes, not only a few casters ,an impact that would reflect the scaling of abilities : Maybe slight nerfs on abilities base damages but that would increase everytime the character gets powerlevel : weaker the first levels, around the same till level 10 then it gets better and better the more the class gets powerlevel (4+ maybe ?).

Multiclasses would still have a decent chunk of powerlevel to keep it as powerful as it is today, or slightly stronger, while single classes could really feel they are the "specialists" that outshine multiclasses for at least 1 thing.

Also maybe give all single classes +1 powerlevel at level 20  :w00t: 

I wrote this topic because i really think the key to a decent balance between single classes and multiclasses can really be achieved through a few tweaks to power level.

What do you think about it guys ?

 

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In general, I agree as I think single class toons should be more proficient with abilities they use than multiclass versions. So +1 powerlevel at 20 seems about right. But single-class wizards though if that is the case will be really strong even more so than now. 

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I think this is one of those zero sum game questions. Either single classes are better or multiclasses are better. I don't it's possible to perfectly balance this. In my game I played fighter/rogue, palldin/chanter, monk/priest, straight wizard and straight druid. The three multis where very strong. So were the two casters but really mainly for the one big empowered hit per encounter. This was mostly fireball/delayed fireball and Relentless Storm. Because you can do that with multiclassed wizards and druids as well if I play again I think I'd multiclass everyone. it's just a lot stronger.

 

It's also a lot more fun IMO. The multiclassing is a star feature of Deafire for me, I really enjoyed playing my three multis.

 

Nerfing multis relative to singles is going to make builds really hard to decide on. The closer they get the harder it becomes. A second danger is that you could push the nerfs far enough to make them equal to single class versions on paper but unviable in practice . For example builds like fighter/rogue, priest/monk, fighter/wizard etc are so good largely becasue they are so resilient. If you nerf the figthter/monk/palladin/barb component defences etc relative to the resilience of the singel class versions suddenly the multis are vulnerable in melee and can't tank properly and you say nah, they're not strong enough.

 

Personally I's be happy to say this is bascially a multi-class game at heart and leave it at that (and take that rediculous "multiclass is for experts" message off the character creation screens, it's like totally the opposite) but I can easily see that if you like to play with single class characters that would be very annoying.

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They could always balance it out across the levels so that multi-class starts out better but then single class steadily gains ground, culminating at peak power by the end game.


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That why I always though they should have made the character multiclasses only. When you try to balance multiclass it can be easy to nerf to much an ability that is powerfull because of the synergy but become useless when you don't use a specific combinaison.

 

Or better : Only mono classes, but you create specific hybrid classes that use existing abilities but that you can tweak only for this specific hybrid class. And you can create a few unique powers for special flavor.

 

Multiclassing was never balanced in pen&paper games over the years, so don't expect a video game will be able to do the impossible. Subclasses, starfinder archetypes or d&d 4 paragon paths and class feats are perhaps what is closer to a balanced 'multiclassing' I think.

 

 

EDIT : power level is a tricky thing. Like the OP said, it mean not much for martial classes but everything for casters, that why a single caster can be really good because of the extra PL, spells and on top of that empower.

 

But what can you scale with PL? DMG? that depend mostly of weapon (but perhaps a dmg bonus from ability). Accuracy & penetration? can be tricky and make a multiclass useless if they can't penetrate or have enought accuracy compared to single class.

 

PL 8-9 abilities are normaly the selling point of single classing, but here to it can have nefast result if all the good stuff is pushed out of range of multiclassing. Some classes have horrible PL 7 with no decent options.

Edited by Takkik

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I believe single classes are best for most casters. My Chanter and Priest Xoti are powerhouses.

 

Martial classes have little reason to go single class, however. I'm cool with that, because martial characters usually lack options, so multiclass seems tailored to them.

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I believe single classes are best for most casters. My Chanter and Priest Xoti are powerhouses.

 

Martial classes have little reason to go single class, however. I'm cool with that, because martial characters usually lack options, so multiclass seems tailored to them.

 

I agree, with the caveat that single-class Monk is actually really good (and so is single-class Barbarian.)


"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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In general, I agree as I think single class toons should be more proficient with abilities they use than multiclass versions. So +1 powerlevel at 20 seems about right. But single-class wizards though if that is the case will be really strong even more so than now. 

Yes and that's where the "slight ability base damages nerf" could be of use if the scaling of wizards spells gets too high with that change. And he already has damage scaling coming from powerlevel anyway.

 

I believe single classes are best for most casters. My Chanter and Priest Xoti are powerhouses.

 

Martial classes have little reason to go single class, however. I'm cool with that, because martial characters usually lack options, so multiclass seems tailored to them.

Still kind of boring to mix your Fighter with a paladin or barbarian that betrays the kind of archetype you'r aiming at for your character.

Did some nice games & builds with multiclasses, but all "martial" singleclasses I did ended up being very limited, the fighter being the most unsatisfying i got to play even tho it's my favorite rpg class. But western rpgs tend to not treat this class well most of the time anyway.

 

So a small buff to single class efficiency could still be welcome in any case. As i said, it should be a slight damage increase, like +3% damages on abilty/ power level (coming with a nerf to the base damages of some abilities that would get too strong)

 

 

I believe single classes are best for most casters. My Chanter and Priest Xoti are powerhouses.

 

Martial classes have little reason to go single class, however. I'm cool with that, because martial characters usually lack options, so multiclass seems tailored to them.

 

I agree, with the caveat that single-class Monk is actually really good (and so is single-class Barbarian.)

 

While they are strong enough, they are still outclassed by far by multiclasses including them (xxx/barb or yyy/monk).

Also not all the single classes are good, some are decent at best. Fighter/Ranger/etc... even Paladin (considered one of the most powerful classes of POE2) are kind of not worthy as single classes, even tho they can hold their own since it's a pve game, because of how pointless power level is and how their toptier abilities are not powerful enough to justify not going for multiclass (some hl abilities are good, but aren't powerspikes worth the sacrifice).

Edited by Veolfen

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I agree. Single-class Fighter, for example, is fairly boring and doesn’t have interesting high-level abilities that make me want to single-class. Monks do, actually. I love Brawler, but the high-level ability that makes the Monk invisible and he zig-zags hitting everybody around is super-palatable to me.


"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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I care less about the best. There will always be some ultimate build.

MC DPS could combine galsscannon from two classes, and relay more on party healing while taking more and giving more to enemies.

Also can combine two support classes for more versalite support. A bit different role it is.

Monk, Paladins, Barbarians are also ok as single class.

 

I care about the Cake. Which is some reason to play class,or single class. It dont have to be the best, but viable, interesting, and somehow appleaing.

 

For MC vs single:

Talent at tier VIII to use double enpower per encounter.

For Martial classes talent to get Zeal on Kill (also for fighters or rogues), so even if you single class you still have enought resource.

Other option is to give more resource at tier VIII like +3 zeal. The MC could use two pools which generally gives more, so single class also need an option to have 18 resouece.

Lower by 1 level of tier VIII and IX, they will come early and you will sea them in play longer.

More Neutral talents, so even if you are single class you have enought options. The worst thing is to have level points, but nothing to spend it on.

In some classes buff less used abillities, buff Priest, and parts of CIpher,  the thioing with cipher is that there is only a couple good powers anyway, so you are not missing much if  you spend 7 points of powers.

 

Generally we already had nerfs, so now is time to buff.

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@OP

 

Yeah but the game is finite not infinite.

 

For example MC characters get access to high level abilities very late and there may may only be 10% of the game left when they do.

 

Single class characters get access to high level abilities much quicker and have much more of the game to enjoy them.

 

I am mainly just using single class characters now and will roll mulitclass characters when the expansions come out

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The main issue is the resource pool - there's no reason that a level 18 rogue should have fewer resource points than a level 18 Barbarian/Rogue. If anything it should be the other way around to balance for synergies. 

I know power level is supposed to make up the difference, but the game is unclear about how the advantage is applied so single classes feel comparatively starved for resources without really feeling the benefit of what they're getting in return.

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The main issue is the resource pool - there's no reason that a level 18 rogue should have fewer resource points than a level 18 Barbarian/Rogue. If anything it should be the other way around to balance for synergies. 

 

I know power level is supposed to make up the difference, but the game is unclear about how the advantage is applied so single classes feel comparatively starved for resources without really feeling the benefit of what they're getting in return.

 

Increased resource pool for single class characters would definitely help. Maybe +50% Rage/Discipline/Mortification/Zeal/Bond/Guile, +1 Cast per Encounter for Wizards/Druids/Priests, -20% Focus Cost for Ciphers and -1 Phrase cost for Chanters ?

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what is the point in having a stupidly powerful mulitclass character if there is none of the game left to enjoy them. What are you going to do ? stare at the character creation sheet?

 

You are all complaining about nothing and are so wrong its no funny.

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I don't think it's imbalanced, and you can't really compare on level 20 / PL IX really.

 

They build in a couple of deterrents to multi-classing, and the most powerful is not that you don't get access PL VIII & IX. It's that you get access to PL VII 6 levels later.

 

I think single classes seem under-powered at times because they only use one resource pool, instead of two, so they feel more like one-trick ponies.

 

Some of the classes (like wizard) already work great for both single and multi class play, and the solution for classes that don't is more about tweaking some of the mid-to-higher power levels to make them really attractive. Look what they're doing to Cipher in 1.2. Before that, it was only viable as a multi-class with a martial class for focus generation. Now they speed up things, enhance duration and add some unique things to the list (Brilliant inspiration anyone? :)

That makes deciding between single and multi really hard (which it wasn't for Cipher), and that's how it should be.

 

BTW 2/3rd of playthroughs being attempted with single class characters also seem to indicate that single class is not necessarily underpowered. It's not 100% conclusive, though.


the_ultimate.png
 

Done with Moon Godlike Wizard

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I think the first step should be to split PL in Main PL (MPL) that is gathered ONLY by Level( so 1-9 for Single, 1-7 for Multi) and Bonus PL (BPL) gained from skills and so on. These different PLs should scale witch each other by multiplication. Example for a dmg modifier:

 

MPL

1. 5%

2. 10%

3. 15%

4. 20%

5. 25%

6. 30%

7. 35%

8. 50%

9. 70%

 

BPL % = BPL* 5%

 

So a Single Class character at lvl 20 with 2 BPL will deal (1+70%)*(1+10%)-1 =87 % more dmg

 

A Multi Class character at lvl 20 with 4  BPL (so in sum the same PL as above) will only deal (1+35%)*(1+20%)-1 =62 % more dmg.

 

This Approach will make BPL desireable for both MC and SC as they gain relatively the same amount of dmg for each point. If the PLs arent split PL would be too desirable for MC and everything would be broken again.

 

Oh and with a small Change this could also be added to Auto attacks. In this case BPL woul be for MC ( BPL from Class 1 + BPL from Class 2)/2.

 

 

 

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I made a suggestion earlier on single classes gaining more effects on abilities as you gain powerlevel. Also restrict multiclassing to 5 power levels instead of 7. I mean currently multiclasses don't get 50% of the power of these classes. They get close to 80%. And we all can do the math and see that 80% +80% = 160% and not 100%.

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I made a suggestion earlier on single classes gaining more effects on abilities as you gain powerlevel. Also restrict multiclassing to 5 power levels instead of 7. I mean currently multiclasses don't get 50% of the power of these classes. They get close to 80%. And we all can do the math and see that 80% +80% = 160% and not 100%.

   It's intentionnal for multiclasses not be stuck in 50/50%, I think they talked about it in an update. You loose too much power. At 50% there is lot of chance you don't stay competitive. Two classes at 50% don't necessary = one full class.

 

   About PL scaling, it's easy to unbalance too. Spells depend of PL, but they scale only with PL, gear that give you PL, and rare passives that affect them are flat bonus (generaly not on dmg). Now look at rogue, sneak attack scale with PL. But imagine you make deathbow and abilities scale with PL... each time you increase in PL you have 3 power boost. If you don't want out of control power boost, you must made the increase so small you will not really notice it. Just better to limit it at one variable.

   And for martial classes compared to casters, their abilities scale with the weapons. It's the most important variable for their abilities.

 

  The balance they choosed it's the PL 8-9 powers that make the big difference, and some classes have good powers. If you increase the resource pool only for single classes, you allow them to spam even more of these powers. Single class characters advance faster too.

 

   I think the single class vs MC isn't that unbalanced. It's really depend of the class. Rogue have a good start but then outside of passives you don't unlock very interesting abilities, until pl8 were you have gambit that outshine all other. It's a problem of balance of classes between them, but generaly you have some good stuff at PL 8-9. I find monk and caster (not cipher) more balanced because they have a more even distribution of abilities.

 

  What make single classes feel weak is that multiclassing tend to the more FUN. That open lot of interesting power combinaison and build. That what outshine single classe. The issue is that at a moment of the beta they doubled abilities point of single class. That was a good move to bring single class at same level of MC, but the drawback is that a single class don't hold enough abilities to offer choices of build for a single class now. Like it was said, often you have to pick stuff that don't interest you.

 

   With futur expansion, they need to add more abilities to the skill trees (not add more levels) to bring back choices to single classes and multiclasses too. It's how a single class character will have the feeling of a more specialised/focused character over a multiclass one.

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I made a suggestion earlier on single classes gaining more effects on abilities as you gain powerlevel. Also restrict multiclassing to 5 power levels instead of 7. I mean currently multiclasses don't get 50% of the power of these classes. They get close to 80%. And we all can do the math and see that 80% +80% = 160% and not 100%.

   It's intentionnal for multiclasses not be stuck in 50/50%, I think they talked about it in an update. You loose too much power. At 50% there is lot of chance you don't stay competitive. Two classes at 50% don't necessary = one full class.

 

Even though that's definitely true, giving them 80% of the powerlevel of two classes doesn't even come close to balancing vs single class. I mean you get the benefits of two classes without actually losing much of anything. I don't see the logic here.

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But if you give multiclasses 50% max power for each class, nobody in their right mind would choose them over single classes.

 

I agree PL should be making more of a difference—been saying as much since the beta days—without going overboard as Obsidian tend to do when they do balance passes.


"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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I made a suggestion earlier on single classes gaining more effects on abilities as you gain powerlevel. Also restrict multiclassing to 5 power levels instead of 7. I mean currently multiclasses don't get 50% of the power of these classes. They get close to 80%. And we all can do the math and see that 80% +80% = 160% and not 100%.

   It's intentionnal for multiclasses not be stuck in 50/50%, I think they talked about it in an update. You loose too much power. At 50% there is lot of chance you don't stay competitive. Two classes at 50% don't necessary = one full class.

 

Even though that's definitely true, giving them 80% of the powerlevel of two classes doesn't even come close to balancing vs single class. I mean you get the benefits of two classes without actually losing much of anything. I don't see the logic here.

 

 

the concept is that normaly abilities are more powerful as you go down the tree, and the last PL 8-9 abilities worth more than early ones. So the 20% you miss, hold more power/weight than you think.

 

Now not all classes are equal. Some have horrible pl 6-7 (no attractive choice for a MC at lvl 19-20), some have 2+ really good single class abilities, some have only one (ranger & rogue). Power levels have a big impact on spells so single caster get an extra buff.

 

Without telemetric datas,  I think it's only a feeling that single classes are unbalanced (and depend of the class). The fact that MC tend to be more fun, open more choice of builds and have a better start give the feeling they are superior. The biggest problem of single class is the lack of choice while leveling (originaly you got only half ability points) which mean you can take a good part of all the good think from a class while MC and when single class only you don't have much choice in what you take at each level.

Edited by Takkik

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Problem is :

 

You have a panel = 100 % of possibilities.

With Obsidian, 75 % of abilities are trash. There is also a lot of duplicate.

 

So with a multiclass, you can take the best of each panel.

 

Not the case for single class. So it is not 50 % - 50 %. And yes you have PL 8 and 9, but in fact, all of this is at the end of the game.

 

The most difficult part of the game is the start. At the start, multiclass is always better.

 

Result of the analysis :

 

1) Obsidian must improve trash abilities.

2) Obsidian must increase the number of choice of good abilities.

 

Poop - poop - poop - poop - poop - Gold

 

Gold - poop - poop / Gold - poop - poop

 

Single = Gold x1

Multi = Gold x2

 

And PL have not a real impact finally... Most of abilities arent concerned. Disciplined strike ? 25 % hit to crit in all cases...

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Power Level needs to effect more abilities, especially for Martial classes. That would go a long way to making PL universally useful and make single class more appealing. Improve the **** abilities too.

Edited by KaineParker

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Personally, I agree that PL should impact more abilities.

 

Towards the end of my first playthrough I looked more closely at various abilities and so few of them are affected by it (outside of casters) that it really limits the appeal and impact of the thing.

 

On the other hand, once I realized that Sneak Attack scaled with PL, it made me excited to try a pure Rogue again (my first playthrough was a Swashbuckler), even though the last two tiers of Rogue abilities look very lackluster to me.

 

I think at minimum every martial class should have something important that scales with PL, like Sneak Attack does. Does Carnage scale with it? I don't think anything much does on Fighter.

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Power Level needs to effect more abilities, especially for Martial classes. That would go a long way to making PL universally useful and make single class more appealing. Improve the **** abilities too.

That's the whole point of the topic.

 

It shouldn't affect wizards more than it actually does on them already, while it should give additionnal effects on some other classes, especially martial classes who often never really benefit from power level at all.

 

At rank 9 you unlock a +1 powerlevel, but why even bother ?

 

 

Powerlevel could give more reason to pick single classes, while not destroying the multiclass. I'm not one that wants multticlasses to get nerfed, i want single classes to have a reason to be picked.

Most are viable, it's a PVE game in the end, but still, the difference of power is sometime incredible.

 

For exemple :

 

-In my first game i made a 2 hander fighter

At level 16 he was well geared and stuff he was "decent" at taking out targets, hitting constantly around 45 to 100 depending of high roll and crits or not, his biggest hit being a high roll powerstrike crit at 127 damages. I made a level 15 fighter/paladin to see the potential with a mix of buffs. With non enchanted exceptionnal items + lord darryn vouge, the very first hit he did was 150 damages !! I thought I got lucky but he kept rolling those damages over and over again, hitting 200+ for max damages hits and stuff.  Stat wise, they are at base almost the same (18 might/12dex/18 perception for fighter and 17 might/14dex/19 perception for crusader), but with gear the fighter was above by far. Still the damage difference was INCREDIBLE. Not like i only used normal attacks on the fighter and empowered flame of devotion on the crusader. I compared damages between a crusader spamming flame of devotion to the max damages reach on a high roll crit on a high level fighter skill that cost 4 discipline lol. 

 

 

A lot of skills could become much more interesting with a decent interaction with power level.

Edited by Veolfen

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