Dual wield vs any other melee style

[AeonsLegend]

I've tried a few different setups.

 

Two-handed: slow, low damage.

Single handed: decent, nice crit buff. Still slow

Sword and shield: decent for defense, worse than single handed

 

All of these are completely irrelevant when comparing them with dual wielding. Dual wielding is fast, has 100% more damage on full attacks than anything else and they don't really suffer from either accuracy or deflection as opposed to the buffs some of the other styles get becasue of the massive amount of free stats your char gets. And well, Two handed is just the worst of all of them. I was thinking of building a monk/barbarian to get free swings and nullify the recovery time between hits, but even at only 50% damage bonus monk fists still did more damage in multiclass than a legendary two-handed weapon. Pfff.

[AndreaColombo]

...and the solution will be MOAR nerfs to dual-wielding (specifically, making it slower.) Wait for it.

[dunehunter]

I've tried a few different setups.

 

Two-handed: slow, low damage.

Single handed: decent, nice crit buff. Still slow

Sword and shield: decent for defense, worse than single handed

 

All of these are completely irrelevant when comparing them with dual wielding. Dual wielding is fast, has 100% more damage on full attacks than anything else and they don't really suffer from either accuracy or deflection as opposed to the buffs some of the other styles get becasue of the massive amount of free stats your char gets. And well, Two handed is just the worst of all of them. I was thinking of building a monk/barbarian to get free swings and nullify the recovery time between hits, but even at only 50% damage bonus monk fists still did more damage in multiclass than a legendary two-handed weapon. Pfff.

 

And don't forget dual wielding means you get two weapons' passive bonus, for example there's a spear that gives u +Penetration based on your survival skill, I'm able to get +5 Pen for each hand with 20+ survival. Also Magran's flavor + Sun&Moon gives u +4 PL for fire keyword, while the elemental quarterstaff is nerfed very hard this patch... Only +1 PL for each 4 elements. So it's 4 vs 1 PL on fire spells, or 2 vs 1 on ice spells.

 

Shield imo is good enough because in DF all gear bonus stacks so with right build you can stack super high deflection with correct shield, a Arcane Knight can get 230+ deflection with large shield.

Edited June 17, 2018 by dunehunter

[ErlKing]

You just need to fix Full-Attack abilities to include recovery from main hand. It is single, most imbalanced feature of dual wielding.

[AeonsLegend]

...and the solution will be MOAR nerfs to dual-wielding (specifically, making it slower.) Wait for it.

I think it'd be good if it had an accuracy nerf, not a speed nerf. Although in the end I don't feel it needs to be nerfed, other styles just have to add something more unique.

 

As it stands now:

Dual wield: almost 2x damage of any other style

Shield: accuracy lowered, a few meaningless deflection points added

Single handed: lots of accuracy and crits. About 50% less damage than dual wield in the end

Two handed: nevermind, this style doesn't exist. It's about 50% less damage than single handed.

 

In order to fix this the other styles need something that makes them worth picking in the first place. They don't now. They don't stand out at all.

 

I'd propose something like this:

 

Dual wield: -5 accuracy main hand -10 accuracy off hand, +3 deflection per weapon vs melee hits. no more full attack damage bonus

Single handed: +12 accuracy, +5% chance to parry incoming melee hit (scaling with dexterity?). +x% chance to counter attack melee parried hit

Shield: -3 accuracy with buckler, -5 accuracy with medium shield, -8 accuracy with tower shield. Buckler has 5% chance to avoid melee attack. Medium shield has 8% chance to avoid melee attack and 5% chance to avoid ranged attack. Tower shield has 10% chance to avoid any attack. 

Two handed: 5% chance the attack ignores enemy delfection. +10% crit chance. Rending: Critical hits remove 1 armor from the enemy stacks to maximum 20% max armor of the enemy minimum is 1.

 

Maybe requires a bit of balance, but this way each one is unique...

Edited June 17, 2018 by AeonsLegend

[AndreaColombo]

My reply was tongue-in-cheek. I've always been against speed nerfs of all kinds as the game's recovery's already slow enough as it is.

[MaxQuest]

Imho the problem is not dual-wielding per-se but it's interaction with Full Attacks that allows to skip mainhand recovery/reload completely.

 

Before running any numbers, I think that it would be enough to make Full Attacks with a single weapon always roll max damage.

That will likely be enough to balance it out; and if not, they (FAs with single weapons) could also get a minor accuracy boost.

Edited June 17, 2018 by MaxQuest

[AeonsLegend]

Imho the problem is not dual-wielding per-se but it's interaction with Full Attacks that allows to skip mainhand recovery/reload completely.

 

Before running any numbers, I think that it would be enough to make Full Attacks with a single weapon always roll max damage.

That will likely be enough to balance it out; and if not, they could also get a minor accuracy boost.

It's not just full attacks. They get almost twice the attacks in of a single weapon. An accuracy boost makes no sense. It needs an accuracy nerf if anything.

[QuiteGoneJin]

The deadfire teaks mod handled this very well, giving a small speed bonus to the shield and weapon perk. And an ac bonus to the medium shield modal. A NERF to two handed with no talent (making it normal speed instead of whatever innate bonus it is) and a buff to two handed with talent. 

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/72

 

I really like this mod for many (not all) of its options. Made Ranger and Cipher much better, Carnage better, Druid/Priest slightly better. And highly improved 2handed sword modal. 

[AeonsLegend]

The deadfire teaks mod handled this very well, giving a small speed bonus to the shield and weapon perk. And an ac bonus to the medium shield modal. A NERF to two handed with no talent (making it normal speed instead of whatever innate bonus it is) and a buff to two handed with talent. 

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/72

 

I really like this mod for many (not all) of its options. Made Ranger and Cipher much better, Carnage better, Druid/Priest slightly better. And highly improved 2handed sword modal. 

It does make the other options stronger, but it also makes them more of the same. 

[MaxQuest]

It's not just full attacks. They get almost twice the attacks in of a single weapon. An accuracy boost makes no sense. It needs an accuracy nerf if anything.

Hmm, if we put Full Attacks aside, how do you get DW setup attacking almost twice faster than a single weapon?

 

My math shows lower values.

Also because speed modifiers are handled in additive manner, you see how it goes when you stack them...

 

 

And don't forget dual wielding means you get two weapons' passive bonus, for example there's a spear that gives u +Penetration based on your survival skill, I'm able to get +5 Pen for each hand with 20+ survival.

I think that "Harpooning" effect from Mohora Tanga affecting both weapons is a bug.

 

The general rule so far was: if a weapon effect buffs damage/speed/pen or any other property related to weapons - then it affects attacks made with that weapon only. And if it buffs a stat that doesn't make sense if applied to weapon itself (like mig/dex/con/.../skill_bonus/etc) it gets attached to character instead.

Edited June 17, 2018 by MaxQuest

[dunehunter]

But the thing is we cannot ignore full attacks, almost every melee class has enough spammable full attack abilities.

 

And don’t forget the double passive bonus u can get from dual wielding.

 

@maxQuest if the soulbind dagger is bind with rogue, it also grant u +2 Pen for both weapon, for around 25 sec. so I’m confused if the harponing is intended or not.

 

Also Modwyr seems to be bugged because the lash applies to both weapon u wield....

Edited June 17, 2018 by dunehunter

[AeonsLegend]

 

It's not just full attacks. They get almost twice the attacks in of a single weapon. An accuracy boost makes no sense. It needs an accuracy nerf if anything.

Hmm, if we put Full Attacks aside, how do you get DW setup attacking almost twice faster than a single weapon?

 

My math shows lower values.

Also because speed modifiers are handled in additive manner, you see how it goes when you stack them...

 

 

Ok so they only have 47% more damage than any other weapon...

[MaxQuest]

Ok so they only have 47% more damage than any other weapon...

Attacking 47% faster does not necessary mean dealing 47% more damage.

And I can expand the previous table to include auto-attack dps to show it:

 

 

As you can see, the dps of different styles at very basic scenario is within 10%.

Ofc the scenario varies with equipment, stats and effects. And it is quite hard to take into account all possible variants.

But the general rule is:

- the more damage bonuses you have, the less relative gain you get from Two-Handed Style talent.

- the more speed bonuses you have, the less relative gain you get from Two-Weapon Fighting Style talent.

 

Also it's hard to estimate the dps increase from One-Handed Style (talent 20% hit-to-crit). Skalds, overpenetration, weapons and abilities with on crit effects will benefit more from it. But for the table I've considered it a just 5% auto-dps gain as the worst case scenario.

 

 

P.S. I still think that the main offender that skews dpsers in favor of dual-wielding is the interaction between DW and Full Attacks. Not DW speed per-se.

But yes, would welcome the buff of intrinsic +12 acc of attacking with one-handed weapon to +15 acc.

Edited June 17, 2018 by MaxQuest

[AeonsLegend]

I don't think your chart takes into account the actual combat values. Even on Veteran mode and level scaling all only up I get crits about 35% of the time. With single handed weapons how much would that increase? That's never ever going to close the gap vs having 50% more attacks.

 

Edit: and don't forget having two weapons equiped gives you two items with bonus values. It's the same reason Monk fists give 80% damage bonus and +6 penetration at max level

Edited June 17, 2018 by AeonsLegend

[AndreaColombo]

Well, Monk fists need to make up for not having any enchantment path somehow...

 

I see your point about DW getting bonuses from two weapons, though. Other styles should be buffed to par, imo.

[AeonsLegend]

Well, Monk fists need to make up for not having any enchantment path somehow...

 

I see your point about DW getting bonuses from two weapons, though. Other styles should be buffed to par, imo.

Monk fists are small weapons in terms of attack speed have the same base damage as great swords and get an 80% bonus. That more than makes up for anything they don't get from weapons, Far far more.

[AndreaColombo]

nvm.

Edited June 17, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[Braven]

I wish, for balancing, instead of making duel-wield slower, have it come with accuracy penalty. That would better define each fighting style. Currently duel-wield can be better than single-wield for crits because the faster attack speed allows more hits and chances for crits. Having a faster speed but lower accuracy helps to make it have strong DPS, but poor for critting. I would like:

 

1-hand: best crits

2-handers: best penetration

Duel: best DPS against lower armor/deflection.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Braven

[KDubya]

 

Well, Monk fists need to make up for not having any enchantment path somehow...

 

I see your point about DW getting bonuses from two weapons, though. Other styles should be buffed to par, imo.

Monk fists are small weapons in terms of attack speed have the same base damage as great swords and get an 80% bonus. That more than makes up for anything they don't get from weapons, Far far more.

 

 

Monk fists do 16.5 average damage, swords do 16 and great swords do 22.

 

Fists do a lot of damage but they do not do the damage of a great sword.

 

The 80% boost requires a single class monk who is level 19+ who takes 'Prestige' or is a Nature Godlike with Wellspring in effect. A Legendary weapon just needs you to find or buy it.

 

Full attacks are what makes dual wielding so much better, well that and the inherent +30% attack speed from dual wielding without any ability. The abilities are balanced - two handed style = one handed style = two weapon style - and the weapons themselves are pretty well balanced. That extra free +30% just makes dual wielding better.

 

Its a lot better now that Fighters have mostly Primary attacks as do Monks. Not sure why Paladins are the masters of dual wielding with their super spam worthy Flames of Devotion being a Full Attack and they get zeal on every kill at power level VI. 

 

Some sort of damage, penetration or accuracy malus would be better for dual wielding. maybe make enchantments on two handers stronger or give them additional penetration maybe.

[MaxQuest]

Full attacks are what makes dual wielding so much better, well that and the inherent +30% attack speed from dual wielding without any ability. The abilities are balanced - two handed style = one handed style = two weapon style - and the weapons themselves are pretty well balanced. That extra free +30% just makes dual wielding better.

1H provides a [+12 accuracy] bonus.

DW provides a [-30% recovery time] bonus. (or that's the same as +42.8% recovery speed; but it doesn't affect attack phase)

2H provides a [+31% on average higher base damage].

 

Just wanted to point that all styles get something free.

 

I don't think your chart takes into account the actual combat values.

Yeah, those were for a character at 10MIG/10DEX, unenchanted mundane weapons.

And the same character but under the effect of streetfighters "-50% recovery time" buff.

The point was to show that there are situations when DW is not exceeding other styles from auto-attack dps perspective.

 

Even on Veteran mode and level scaling all only up I get crits about 35% of the time. With single handed weapons how much would that increase? That's never ever going to close the gap vs having 50% more attacks.

It depends if you crit due to high hit-to-crit conversion or due to high acc-def difference. (because in the first case +12 acc from 1H when shifting your attack resolution will be trading misses for crits, while in the second case grazes for crits)

Plus depending on how many speed increasing effects you already have, dual-wielding might provide far less than +50% attack rate.

 

You can post your: mig, dex, all damage modifiers, all speed modifiers, accuracy, hit-to-x-quality-conversions and enemy deflection, and I'll be able to compute the dps for that exact scenario, DW vs 1H.

 

Edit: and don't forget having two weapons equiped gives you two items with bonus values. It's the same reason Monk fists give 80% damage bonus and +6 penetration at max level

I do keep that in mind.

And in case of dual-wielding two weapons with let's say +x MIG, or some other effect that applies to characterStats and thus essentially to both of weapons, it's a valid remark.

 

Monk fists are not really a good example in this context though. For the following reasons:

- it's not like each fist gets 40% damage bonus, and when you "equip" both, you get 80% damage bonus to each of them.

- also, since we compare DW vs 1H vs 2H style dps, we would have to compare [DW Fists] vs [1H Fist] vs [2H GreatFist].

Edited June 18, 2018 by MaxQuest

[theBalthazar]

In neverwinter night, there was a good idea to add a 1.5 multiplier with 2 handed Weapons.

 

It is only in Pillars saga where you have dual wieilding > 2 handed.

 

It is not logical. Overkill/bottleneck effect + Bonuses each weapons (Two sabres = potentially bonusesx2 with unique items) + Maximum attack are three arguments to put 2 handed on top.

[mant2si]

In NWN scythe has x3 crit modifier

I also love how some ARPG implements bonuses for 2H melee weapons:

For example In MedianXL - Necromancer scythe lover enemies physical resistance to 25% (Similar to constant overpen), Paladin hammers give you 100% evasion for 2 sec on hit chance etc..

In Grim Dawn and Path of Exile, they make 2H weapons x2 stronger than 1H (not 31% for base damage), but also all weapon aspects, i.e if single hand sword can give you +2MIG, then two hand weapon can give you +4MIG and 30% crush damage...

For my point of view Obsidian should heavy rework bonuses and enchantments on 2H weapons and add some attractive procs

Maybe something like this bow https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Saint_Omaku%27s_Mercy

* Health on Kill 
* Action Speed on Health drop
* Immediately recovery

Edited June 18, 2018 by mant2si

[MrMoe]

 

It is only in Pillars saga where you have dual wieilding > 2 handed.

 

 

In Baldur's Gate 2 (and 1 EE) you have the same problem. 2nd weapon stats + 1 extra attack per round is better than anything else.

But the data that MaxQuest has compiled shows that 2h weapons arent bad at all, and 1h has it advantages too, but mainly early game where a higher accuracy is more important as high level buffs and debuffs are not that available.

[JackalTornMoons]

In NWN scythe has x3 crit modifier

Scythes are 2d4 20/x4 if I remember correctly. There are x4 crit multiplier one handed weapons in D&D 3.5 (light picks and heavy picks) but I don't think NWN has them.