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Armor penetration is a pain in the ass. Stacking armor is OP.

Armor Armor penetration

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#41
Jaget80

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Yes, the penetration system is not good.

It's too simplistic IMO.

 

The problems you bring up could easily be counter by giving the penetration a scaling. 

One penetration point above armor rating could give 4% more damage just to put a number.

 

Recerse would also be true.

 

Sounds like turning penetration into damage. Game already has damage.

 

 

But that is exactly what is it now except it does nothing most of the time at least in POTD.



#42
Boeroer

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First of all tweak the numbers!

-75% with double inversion is actually -300% as long as the attacker has dmg bonuses. Thats WAY too high.

Again: I think the guys who choose the numbers are not the ones who implemented those wonky and superunintuive double inversion mechanics.

-1 PEN: -25% dmg. With double inversion it's -33%

-2 PEN: -50% dmg -> -75%

-3 PEN: -75% dmg -> -300%

Like with the original "blunted criticals" (-25% crit dmg which lead to -33% and lead to the situation where crits were doing less dmg than hits) somebody who decides which numbers go into abilities doesn't understand the underlying mechanics. I can't blame them - the double inversion
mechanics are horrible.

But that maybe explains why the current AR/PEN system is so unbalanced.

Either remove double inversion or tweak numbers so they actually lead to a linear regression of dmg.

AND remove AR increase on PotD! Dammit! Everything evolves around PEN on PotD. It's annoying and boring at the same time.
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#43
hilfazer

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Yes, the penetration system is not good.

It's too simplistic IMO.

 

The problems you bring up could easily be counter by giving the penetration a scaling. 

One penetration point above armor rating could give 4% more damage just to put a number.

 

Recerse would also be true.

 

Sounds like turning penetration into damage. Game already has damage.

 

 

But that is exactly what is it now except it does nothing most of the time at least in POTD.

 

 

 

Doing nothing most of the time is precisely what makes a difference xD



#44
jww

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First of all tweak the numbers!

-75% with double inversion is actually -300% as long as the attacker has dmg bonuses. Thats WAY too high.
 

 

Could you explain what -300% damage means in this context? The traditional CRPG definition would be that it does no damage at all, plus it heals you for twice as much damage as it would have caused. That's obviously not happening here. Is there a complete (and accurate) damage calculation formula available? (The last one I saw posted on the forum didn't actually work mathematically.) Thanks!


Edited by jww, 03 October 2018 - 07:20 AM.


#45
karnor00

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The fundamental problem with the current AR/AP system is that there is a very small window in which penetration is by far the most valuable stat available.  And outside that window it does either literally nothing or virtually nothing.

 

For example, take an opponent with 15 armor.

The first 12 points of penetration do literally nothing.

The next 1 point is a 100% damage increase.

The next 1 point is a further 50% damage increase.

The next 1 point is a further 33% damage increase.

After that, the next 15 points are about a 2% damage increase each.

 

The way the maths works out is that points 13-15 of penetration generate a total 300% damage increase, and the rest do practically nothing.  Trying to fix this by giving NPCs more/less armor/penetration just shifts the window of opportunity, it doesn't fix the problem.  There's never going to be a good way to balance a system that has such a tiny window of effectiveness.  

(Incidentally, due to the ridiculous double inversion maths actually used in the game, the problem is actually slightly worse in practice than in the example above.  But the maths for that gets very complicated and the problem is still the same)

 

The system needs to be redesigned such that armor and penetration have a much bigger window of effectiveness.  Perhaps something like 1 armor = 5% damage reduction (capped at say 75%), and that each point of penetration reduces that damage reduction by 5%.  So with say 10 armor that would be 50% damage reduction but 10 penetration would reduce that reduction by 50% (i.e. a net 25% damage reduction).

 

It would mean that penetration gains increasing value as your opponent has more armor (which feels right to me), but both will always be useful to have.


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#46
hilfazer

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Perhaps something like 1 armor = 5% damage reduction (capped at say 75%), and that each point of penetration reduces that damage reduction by 5%.  So with say 10 armor that would be 50% damage reduction but 10 penetration would reduce that reduction by 50% (i.e. a net 25% damage reduction).

 

It would mean that penetration gains increasing value as your opponent has more armor (which feels right to me), but both will always be useful to have.

 

Now you're talking.

% is the best way to do penetration.



#47
bringingyouthefuture

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Perhaps something like 1 armor = 5% damage reduction (capped at say 75%), and that each point of penetration reduces that damage reduction by 5%.  So with say 10 armor that would be 50% damage reduction but 10 penetration would reduce that reduction by 50% (i.e. a net 25% damage reduction).

 

It would mean that penetration gains increasing value as your opponent has more armor (which feels right to me), but both will always be useful to have.

 

Now you're talking.

% is the best way to do penetration.

 

Not a math major, so then a Kobold with 10 penetration hits me with 75 percent damage, but a Kobold with 6 penetration hits me with 65 percent - not sure the damage fall off is heavy enough though the idea makes things very simple - but the way the ratio goes not sure the fall off would ever be enough ... maybe make the fall of double for each point below, but keep it 5 percent for above?  I have seen this percent idea floating around on the forum so started to try to do the math, might be a mistake on my part ... hehe

 

So - 10 penetration stays at 75%, 9 drops to 70 %, 8 drops to 65 %, 7 drops to 60 %, and 6 is 55 % - still seems pretty high for 6 penetration ...?

 

EDIT:  Anyway I get what everyone is saying, but a steeper drop-off isn't all bad ; ) as long as the math is good that is ...


Edited by aaronghowell, 03 October 2018 - 03:58 PM.


#48
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As is, the whole game circles around PEN vs. AR - especially on PotD. It's not hard - the game is easy enough even on PotD - it's just boring and tiring that one single side-mechanic is so dominant because its implementation is kind of "all or nothing" (not really, but you get the point).

#49
Phenomenum

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I probably found some useful data in "global.gamedata":

 

"PenetrationRatioMultipliers":[{"Threshold":0,"Value":1},{"Threshold":1,"Value":1},{"Threshold":2,"Value":1.3}], - "Threshold" here is the PEN/AR ratio, "Value" - damage multiplier

"FlatPenetrationMultipliers":[{"Threshold":-99,"Value":0.25},{"Threshold":-2,"Value":0.5},{"Threshold":-1,"Value":0.75} - "Threshold" here is the PEN minus AR, "Value" - damage multiplier

 

I can add some new data in this strings (not sure if it wiil work), eg:

 

"FlatPenetrationMultipliers":[{"Threshold":-99,"Value":0.25},{"Threshold":-4,"Value":0.40},{"Threshold":-3,"Value":0.55},{"Threshold":-2,"Value":0.7},{"Threshold":-1,"Value":0.85} - every point of underpenetration reduce damage by 15%, -5 or more underPEN reduce damage by 75%

 

I will test this today - maybe can create a mod if this changes will works.

 

One thing - is the "double inversion" - i need formula to take it into account, so -75% damage will be -75% and not -300%.


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#50
Phenomenum

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Tested it just now - works fine.

 

Now i need a numbers.

 

For now, test verion contains these changes:

 

OverPEN:

x1.3 = +10% damage

x1.6 = +20% damage

x2 = +30% damage

 

UnderPEN:

-1 = -15% damage

-2 = -30% damage

-3 = -45% damage

-4 = -60% damage

-5 or more = -75% damage

 

Any suggestions? And i can write correct damage multipliers according "double inversion" - just give me formula or exact numbers.


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#51
JerekKruger

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Personally I'd go with 5% per under and over penetration with a lower cap of 20% (like on PoE1) at -16 Pen, and an upper cap of 130% at +6. To be honest though this would either need testing it a rebalancing of enemy armour values.

Also great work. This is precisely what I was hoping would be the case.

Edited by JerekKruger, 04 October 2018 - 01:41 AM.


#52
Phenomenum

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Personally I'd go with 5% per under and over penetration with a lower cap of 20% (like on PoE1) at -16 Pen, and an upper cap of 130% at +6. To be honest though this would either need testing it a rebalancing of enemy armour values.
Also great work. This is precisely what I was hoping would be the case.

You should notice that ingame math for overPen don't operate flat numbers - only Pen/AR ratio - so there is no value corresponding to +6 overPen.
I can raise dmg multiplier to any % when Pen/AR ratio = x2 or x3. Maybe make sense to do non linear progression:

Pen/AR ratio (overpen):

x1.0 = +0% (no damage modifiers)
x1.2 = +10% dmg (+10%)
x1.4 = + 25% dmg (+15%)
x1.6 = +45% dmg (+20%)
x1.8 = + 70% dmg (+25%)
x2 = +100% dmg (+30%)

This is just an example, all values exaggerated

Edited by Phenomenum, 04 October 2018 - 02:11 AM.


#53
Boeroer

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I personally would only create values for underpenetration. Overpenetration giving bonus dmg is a bit silly in my opinion.

 

You usually don't do more damage if your spear sticks out 10 cm of the back of your opponent - compared to the case where it sticks out 5 cm...

 

So if your armor got penetrated 100% then your weapon can do its highest dmg and that should be it.  


Edited by Boeroer, 04 October 2018 - 04:04 AM.

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#54
karnor00

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UnderPEN:
-1 = -15% damage
-2 = -30% damage
-3 = -45% damage
-4 = -60% damage
-5 or more = -75% damage

Any suggestions? And i can write correct damage multipliers according "double inversion" - just give me formula or exact numbers.


This would be a step in the right direction to be sure as it spreads the effective Armor/penetration range to 5 points rather than just 3. But still a kinda small window?

So maybe 10% per point of underpenetration might work better, capped at say 20% would give an 8 point effective range of useful values.

I think 5% per point of underpenetration. might not be enough. It would give a nice big 16 point window but might make armor a bit too weak as a stat (i.e. too hard to get enough armor to really make a difference.

Im less worried about overpenetration as I think this is kind of okay as is. It’s a fairly small bonus which feels about right - making the overpenetration bonus too large would really cripple low armor builds.
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#55
Phenomenum

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I personally would only create values for underpenetration. Overpenetration giving bonus dmg is a bit silly in my opinion.

 

You usually don't do more damage if your spear sticks out 10 cm of the back of your opponent - compared to the case where it sticks out 5 cm...

 

So if your armor got penetrated 100% then your weapon can do its highest dmg and that should be it.  

 

Got it. Overpen mixing with crit mechanic which gives x1.5 PEN so i can just leave it as is.

Any tips about exact values? Should i correct values considering "double inversion"?

 

 

 

UnderPEN:
-1 = -15% damage
-2 = -30% damage
-3 = -45% damage
-4 = -60% damage
-5 or more = -75% damage

Any suggestions? And i can write correct damage multipliers according "double inversion" - just give me formula or exact numbers.


This would be a step in the right direction to be sure as it spreads the effective Armor/penetration range to 5 points rather than just 3. But still a kinda small window?

So maybe 10% per point of underpenetration might work better, capped at say 20% would give an 8 point effective range of useful values.

I think 5% per point of underpenetration. might not be enough. It would give a nice big 16 point window but might make armor a bit too weak as a stat (i.e. too hard to get enough armor to really make a difference.

Im less worried about overpenetration as I think this is kind of okay as is. It’s a fairly small bonus which feels about right - making the overpenetration bonus too large would really cripple low armor builds.

 

 

5% or 10% will be wrong move i think, becose armor will not protect anyone in this case.

Imagine: your AR=10 and enemy PEN=8 - when enemy attacks you he will receive only 20% damage penalty. And for classes which able to stack several damage bonuses (Rogues, Siphers, etc) all armor will be neglitable.

 

UnderPEN penalty should still significant.


Edited by Phenomenum, 04 October 2018 - 04:56 AM.


#56
JerekKruger

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I personally would only create values for underpenetration. Overpenetration giving bonus dmg is a bit silly in my opinion.
 
You usually don't do more damage if your spear sticks out 10 cm of the back of your opponent - compared to the case where it sticks out 5 cm...
 
So if your armor got penetrated 100% then your weapon can do its highest dmg and that should be it.


Given I basically want to get as close to PoE1's system that would work fine. I'm mostly glad that this method is available. I was worried there'd be a hard coded cap of two break points, but the ability to add extra is great.
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#57
Phenomenum

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Personally, i would add OverPEN values:

 

PEN/AR Ratio:

x1.2 - 105% dmg

x1.4 - 110% dmg

x1.6 - 115% dmg

x1.8 - 120% dmg

x2.0 - 130% dmg

 

Becose one break point leaves any other OverPEN values, exept double OverPEN, unrewarded. Basically, you can hit the enemy with 10 AR and if your PEN will be 19,5 you don't receive any bonus dmg. But if you add 0,5 more PEN to value 20, you will receive +30% bonus dmg. It's looks...weird.

 

I don't like any hard breakpoints like this.


Edited by Phenomenum, 04 October 2018 - 07:25 AM.

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#58
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I would like to see more suggestions and make a test version tomorrow (if one of the forum members consider to help me;)



#59
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We need a MaxQuest ;)
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#60
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We need a MaxQuest ;)


Not a MaxQuest, the MaxQuest!
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