Why does every class have to have magic?

[Neckbitbasket]

 Except in wow shadow step is an act of misdirection. Using tricks and smoke bombs. Not so in this game

Step through the shadows to appear behind your target and gain 70% increased movement speed for 2 sec.

[Darkprince048]

 

 Except in wow shadow step is an act of misdirection. Using tricks and smoke bombs. Not so in this game

Step through the shadows to appear behind your target and gain 70% increased movement speed for 2 sec.

 

 

Tell me, if you wanted to sneak up on someone in dim light, would you not "step through the shadows"? The animation in game is utterly mundane

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Neckbitbasket]

 

 

 Except in wow shadow step is an act of misdirection. Using tricks and smoke bombs. Not so in this game

Step through the shadows to appear behind your target and gain 70% increased movement speed for 2 sec.

 

 

Tell me, if you wanted to sneak up on someone in dim light, would you not "step through the shadows"? The animation in game is utterly mundane

 

Except the part where you teleport, and that is a very stretched interpretation of stepping through the shadows. Especially in a world where Shadow Magic does exist.

 

And let's not forget, you are also the person who described the Barbarian's leap as "flying", and used that as an example of abilities that made a Wizard feel "less special".

[Neckbitbasket]

Also, let's not forget these stellar rogue abilities that only further this possibility.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Nightblade_(rogue_ability)

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadow_Blades

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Symbols_of_Death

 

EDIT

 

Golly, I really hate my Shadow Priest now knowing that simple Rogues are capable of using Shadow magic.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Neckbitbasket

[Darkprince048]

 

 

 

 Except in wow shadow step is an act of misdirection. Using tricks and smoke bombs. Not so in this game

Step through the shadows to appear behind your target and gain 70% increased movement speed for 2 sec.

 

 

Tell me, if you wanted to sneak up on someone in dim light, would you not "step through the shadows"? The animation in game is utterly mundane

 

Except the part where you teleport, and that is a very stretched interpretation of stepping through the shadows. Especially in a world where Shadow Magic does exist.

 

And let's not forget, you are also the person who described the Barbarian's leap as "flying", and used that as an example of abilities that made a Wizard feel "less special".

 

 

Oh come on, leap is flying. Dude lights up like Johnny Flame and flies across the screen creating a supernova upon landing. 

[Darkprince048]

Also, let's not forget these stellar rogue abilities that only further this possibility.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Nightblade_(rogue_ability)

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadow_Blades

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Symbols_of_Death

 

Meh, those are very minor effects. And nightblades are a thing. A thing I dont have an issue with. Multiclass is fine imo. But nightblades are mages and rogues. They train in both magic and subterfuge. Key word is train. Gotta learn those abilities, and dedicate to the training. 

 

P.s Those are hardly shadow magic abilites. Very minor

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

It does not mean that anyone and their brother is born innately knowing how to conjure that energy and manifest it into a spell.

Not everyone and their brother are innately able to harness soul power, all the classes imply levels of training that would take time to complete. If everyone and their brother trained as a Barbarian, Fighter, or Rogue they could harness some aspects assuming they didn't get killed by Xaruips as low-level scrubs, and even then what they are able to harness is clearly different from what the Wizard is able to pull off.

If it was that easy, there would really be no such thing as a wizard. Although, the game is borderline at that point already.

Wizards clearly exist in PoE per the class description.

 

"The masters of academic magic, wizards are students of arcane traditions that stretch back beyond the boundaries of recorded history. Wizards are a highly organized group, often forming academies or guilds devoted to research and development in magical studies, and tend to favor environments where inquiry, experimentation, debate, and the dissemination of knowledge are encouraged. Many accomplished wizards eventually become known for their eccentricity, their egos, and their unquenchable interest in all things arcane and occult."

https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Wizard

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wizard

 

Looks close enough to what my first Wizard pnp character did, so not only is there such a thing as Wizard but it's close enough to be similar to 3e Wizards.

 

Comparing the PoE Wizard to PoE Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues shows Wizards have significantly more supernatural abilities both in terms of breadth and magnitude, to the point you can completely bypass supernatural abilities and roll a martial character whose only magic would come from equipment. These classes clearly aren't Wizards even with magic as there is nothing any of them have that remotely resembles Concelhaut's Corrosive Skin, Wilting Wind, or Gaze of the Adragan.

[Darkprince048]

 

It does not mean that anyone and their brother is born innately knowing how to conjure that energy and manifest it into a spell.

Not everyone and their brother are innately able to harness soul power, all the classes imply levels of training that would take time to complete. If everyone and their brother trained as a Barbarian, Fighter, or Rogue they could harness some aspects assuming they didn't get killed by Xaruips as low-level scrubs, and even then what they are able to harness is clearly different from what the Wizard is able to pull off.

If it was that easy, there would really be no such thing as a wizard. Although, the game is borderline at that point already.

Wizards clearly exist in PoE per the class description.

 

"The masters of academic magic, wizards are students of arcane traditions that stretch back beyond the boundaries of recorded history. Wizards are a highly organized group, often forming academies or guilds devoted to research and development in magical studies, and tend to favor environments where inquiry, experimentation, debate, and the dissemination of knowledge are encouraged. Many accomplished wizards eventually become known for their eccentricity, their egos, and their unquenchable interest in all things arcane and occult."

https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Wizard

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wizard

 

Looks close enough to what my first Wizard pnp character did, so not only is there such a thing as Wizard but it's close enough to be similar to 3e Wizards.

 

Comparing the PoE Wizard to PoE Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues shows Wizards have significantly more supernatural abilities both in terms of breadth and magnitude, to the point you can completely bypass supernatural abilities and roll a martial character whose only magic would come from equipment. These classes clearly aren't Wizards even with magic as there is nothing any of them have that remotely resembles Concelhaut's Corrosive Skin, Wilting Wind, or Gaze of the Adragan.

 

 

The issue is that there is not one single class that is entirely mundane. EVERY SINGLE class uses magic. You have to go out of your way to make a character that does not use magic. That to me is the issue. Because this concept tells me that in this world everyone and their brother uses magic, and we go back to my original argument

[Answermancer]

 

 

Obnoxious, maybe. However, accurate, and as I have listed several of the great works that have inspired the entire genre and support my idea of magic, it is pretty hard to argue against my point.

 

It is pretty hard to argue against your point because you cherry-pick the things you like as "great works that inspired the entire genre" and ignore everything else.

 

Constantly moving the goalposts or arguing totally different things while saying everyone else "just doesn't get it" also helps.

 

How does your view of magic as science in any way match great works like LoTR where magic is strictly the purview of gods and angels (who happen to look like Wizards) and there's nothing scientific about it?

 

But the part that really shows how self absorbed you are and how much you need everyone to agree with your very narrow definitions, is this:

You constantly talk about how magic should be like science and Wizards the noble nerds that are smart enough to study it. And yet, when lots of people point out that Wizards are exactly that in Eora, they are researchers, animancers, they have labs and try to study how soul energy works, you ignore this because you personally find the abilities of other classes too flashy or too magical.

 

Multiple people have pointed this out, but your criticism comes down to not liking a truly high-magic setting.

 

Eora is a high magic setting, magical energy (soul energy) is everywhere in some form, and anyone can tap into it to some extent as part of their lives and their jobs. Wizards are exactly what you complain they are not, they are scientists concerned with the minutiae of magical power, who study it and find practical "technological" applications. Like many other people have pointed out, if you equate Magic with physics, anyone can learn a little physics knowledge and apply it in their jobs, and they are the non-Wizard classes, but only Wizards are "PhD physicists" winning Nobel prizes. 

 

The fact that you constantly ignore this point makes it clear that mostly you're butthurt that anyone else gets to use cool magical effects (even though their usage is highly specialized and "intuitive" rather than deeply studied).

 

 

If magic is so widespread and easily attained, and any Joe Smoe can use it, what need is there for someone to research or specialize in it? It is everywhere and easily used by anyone. What is special about a wizard? How does a "wizard" even exist in a setting where magic is so easily obtained and used. Where essentially everyone is a "wizard" and the term simply means someone who plays with it as a hobby.

 

 

Because everyone else is using a very small bit of it intuitively, the same way that in the real world we use physics intuitively to throw a ball or fly a plane or whatever, while an actual physicist is concerned with theory, much deeper understanding and utilization (think particle beams or lasers or something, still just physics, but so far removed from throwing a ball) and much broader application (including technological application). 

 

Again, it's a very, very simple metaphor: Magic in Eora is to Physics in the real world. It's a high magic setting.

 

This is a very simple concept that everyone keeps explaining over and over, but you just discount it because you don't like it, even though it actually perfectly supports your desire for Wizards to be studied nerds devoted to knowledge and research. That's exactly what Wizards in Eora are and do.

 

So no a Wizard is not "someone who plays with it as a hobby", the exact opposite in fact.

 

 

Step through the shadows to appear behind your target and gain 70% increased movement speed for 2 sec.

Tell me, if you wanted to sneak up on someone in dim light, would you not "step through the shadows"? The animation in game is utterly mundane

 

 

You're totally wrong about this too, btw.

 

Shadow Step in WoW is literally a ranged teleport, not utterly mundane in any way, you're probably thinking of the Stealth ability.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Answermancer

[Neckbitbasket]

 

Oh come on, leap is flying. Dude lights up like Johnny Flame and flies across the screen creating a supernova upon landing. 

 

 

The Rogues in WoW TELEPORT! 

 

Meh, those are very minor effects. And nightblades are a thing. A thing I dont have an issue with. Multiclass is fine imo. But nightblades are mages and rogues. They train in both magic and subterfuge. Key word is train. Gotta learn those abilities, and dedicate to the training. 

 

P.s Those are hardly shadow magic abilites. Very minor

 

What was that word someone used earlier? Oh, right.... Cherry-picking. And you have never been more transparent about it than right now. 

 

 

 

It is pretty hard to argue against your point because you cherry-pick the things you like as "great works that inspired the entire genre" and ignore everything else.

 

Constantly moving the goalposts or arguing totally different things while saying everyone else "just doesn't get it" also helps.

 

How does your view of magic as science in any way match great works like LoTR where magic is strictly the purview of gods and angels (who happen to look like Wizards) and there's nothing scientific about it?

 

But the part that really shows how self absorbed you are and how much you need everyone to agree with your very narrow definitions, is this:

You constantly talk about how magic should be like science and Wizards the noble nerds that are smart enough to study it. And yet, when lots of people point out that Wizards are exactly that in Eora, they are researchers, animancers, they have labs and try to study how soul energy works, you ignore this because you personally find the abilities of other classes too flashy or too magical.

 

Multiple people have pointed this out, but your criticism comes down to not liking a truly high-magic setting.

 

Eora is a high magic setting, magical energy (soul energy) is everywhere in some form, and anyone can tap into it to some extent as part of their lives and their jobs. Wizards are exactly what you complain they are not, they are scientists concerned with the minutiae of magical power, who study it and find practical "technological" applications. Like many other people have pointed out, if you equate Magic with physics, anyone can learn a little physics knowledge and apply it in their jobs, and they are the non-Wizard classes, but only Wizards are "PhD physicists" winning Nobel prizes. 

 

The fact that you constantly ignore this point makes it clear that mostly you're butthurt that anyone else gets to use cool magical effects (even though their usage is highly specialized and "intuitive" rather than deeply studied).

 

Thanks @Answermancer, I couldn't have said it better myself. 

 

Maybe someone who has more patience than I do can take this over, but I think it might be wiser to just let this thread die. If it satisfies your ego, Darkprince048, then feel free to consider yourself victorious (over me). I know that is all this is really about to you; and a victory by attrition is, after all, still a victory. 

 

Peace out, babe.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Neckbitbasket

[Thibax]

Why does every class have to have weapon?

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Why does every class have to have weapon?

 

 

Classic example of anti-monk bias right here

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The issue is that there is not one single class that is entirely mundane.

Why should any class used by adventurers be mundane? Adventurers aren't civilians, they're highly skilled individuals with skillsets suited to combat with magical creatures and similarly skilled individuals. If I'm going dungeon delving I'm not going to take everyone and their brother, I'm going to take guys who can handle themselves and this isn't going to be a couple of dudes who just picked up a sword. D&D had to introduce NPC classes to separate adventurers and civilians, so the precedent for your characters being a cut above mundane regardless if warrior or mage has already existed for well over a decade.

EVERY SINGLE class uses magic.

Thanks to splat books, EVERY SINGLE (base)CLASS in D&D could use magic as well. PoE didn't invent the precedent of magical warriors with no sorcery training, it just cuts out the convolution and builds the option into the base class.

You have to go out of your way to make a character that does not use magic.

You don't have to go very far out of your way, Barbarians and Rogues can avoid a magical active ability at every power level except for 9th while Fighters have non-magical options at every power level. Outside of active abilities there are a number of appealing non-magical passive abilities to take instead, so you can easily avoid the sonic yells and teleportation if you so wish. Meanwhile Wizards have at least 7 overtly magical abilities at each power level, which shows a significant discrepancy in the amount of magic between these martial classes and the one you claim no longer makes you feel special.

That to me is the issue. Because this concept tells me that in this world everyone and their brother uses magic, and we go back to my original argument

That's obviously not true, highly skilled adventurers can use magic of one sort of another, and that is a far cry from everyone and their brother. Furthermore such weeabo fitan magic is distinct from Wizards and their spells, which are far more supernatural both in terms of breadth and magnitude. Your original argument is built on a faulty premise, because not only are Wizards still Wizards but the martial classes are far from magical powerhouses indistinct from Wizards.

[SerenityHarkness]

 

 

 

Obnoxious, maybe. However, accurate, and as I have listed several of the great works that have inspired the entire genre and support my idea of magic, it is pretty hard to argue against my point.

 

It is pretty hard to argue against your point because you cherry-pick the things you like as "great works that inspired the entire genre" and ignore everything else.

 

Constantly moving the goalposts or arguing totally different things while saying everyone else "just doesn't get it" also helps.

 

How does your view of magic as science in any way match great works like LoTR where magic is strictly the purview of gods and angels (who happen to look like Wizards) and there's nothing scientific about it?

 

But the part that really shows how self absorbed you are and how much you need everyone to agree with your very narrow definitions, is this:

You constantly talk about how magic should be like science and Wizards the noble nerds that are smart enough to study it. And yet, when lots of people point out that Wizards are exactly that in Eora, they are researchers, animancers, they have labs and try to study how soul energy works, you ignore this because you personally find the abilities of other classes too flashy or too magical.

 

Multiple people have pointed this out, but your criticism comes down to not liking a truly high-magic setting.

 

Eora is a high magic setting, magical energy (soul energy) is everywhere in some form, and anyone can tap into it to some extent as part of their lives and their jobs. Wizards are exactly what you complain they are not, they are scientists concerned with the minutiae of magical power, who study it and find practical "technological" applications. Like many other people have pointed out, if you equate Magic with physics, anyone can learn a little physics knowledge and apply it in their jobs, and they are the non-Wizard classes, but only Wizards are "PhD physicists" winning Nobel prizes. 

 

The fact that you constantly ignore this point makes it clear that mostly you're butthurt that anyone else gets to use cool magical effects (even though their usage is highly specialized and "intuitive" rather than deeply studied).

 

 

If magic is so widespread and easily attained, and any Joe Smoe can use it, what need is there for someone to research or specialize in it? It is everywhere and easily used by anyone. What is special about a wizard? How does a "wizard" even exist in a setting where magic is so easily obtained and used. Where essentially everyone is a "wizard" and the term simply means someone who plays with it as a hobby.

 

 

Because everyone else is using a very small bit of it intuitively, the same way that in the real world we use physics intuitively to throw a ball or fly a plane or whatever, while an actual physicist is concerned with theory, much deeper understanding and utilization (think particle beams or lasers or something, still just physics, but so far removed from throwing a ball) and much broader application (including technological application). 

 

Again, it's a very, very simple metaphor: Magic in Eora is to Physics in the real world. It's a high magic setting.

 

This is a very simple concept that everyone keeps explaining over and over, but you just discount it because you don't like it, even though it actually perfectly supports your desire for Wizards to be studied nerds devoted to knowledge and research. That's exactly what Wizards in Eora are and do.

 

So no a Wizard is not "someone who plays with it as a hobby", the exact opposite in fact.

 

 

Step through the shadows to appear behind your target and gain 70% increased movement speed for 2 sec.

Tell me, if you wanted to sneak up on someone in dim light, would you not "step through the shadows"? The animation in game is utterly mundane

 

 

You're totally wrong about this too, btw.

 

Shadow Step in WoW is literally a ranged teleport, not utterly mundane in any way, you're probably thinking of the Stealth ability.

 

My brother who plays a Rogue in WoW agrees that Shadow Step is in fact a teleport not just sneaking through the shadows. You go 'poof' and than 'poof' you're in a new spot.

[Seroster01]

My brother who plays a Rogue in WoW agrees that Shadow Step is in fact a teleport not just sneaking through the shadows. You go 'poof' and than 'poof' you're in a new spot.

 

 

That's because that's what actually happens, not what OP thinks happens.  Rogues also have an ability to vanish, teleport around a group of mobs, attack all of them instantly, and then re-appear back in front of their target. Warriors also have Heroic Leap, which is essentially identical to POE Barbarian Leap.  

 

I have played WOW off & on since launch, and last played a rogue & warrior and personally used all of these abilities about 3 mo. ago.

 

Anyway, I'm just going to re-iterate my previous post & leave this here: 

[Darkprince048]

 

My brother who plays a Rogue in WoW agrees that Shadow Step is in fact a teleport not just sneaking through the shadows. You go 'poof' and than 'poof' you're in a new spot.

 

 

That's because that's what actually happens, not what OP thinks happens.  Rogues also have an ability to vanish, teleport around a group of mobs, attack all of them instantly, and then re-appear back in front of their target. Warriors also have Heroic Leap, which is essentially identical to POE Barbarian Leap.  

 

I have played WOW off & on since launch, and last played a rogue & warrior and personally used all of these abilities about 3 mo. ago.

 

Anyway, I'm just going to re-iterate my previous post & leave this here: 

 

 

Ok yall win, everyones a mage. Yay. Delete the mage class plz

 

Yall have finally convinced me. The wizard is nothing special, he just does more of what everyone else does already. Got it. Heard. I will go play a barb

Edited June 12, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Lokithecat]

I'm honestly not sure if Dark is trying to just troll everyone by completely contrary, or if he was just trying to complain that PoE2 Wizards didn't match his version of a Wizard.

 

I can buy that in some systems if little Timmy says 'I wanna do magical stuff' that he might have to go to Wizard school, putting in years of work, and finally being able to light a candle with a flame from his finger.  Sure, seems reasonable.  Probably not an experience anyone is going to want to play through...  In that world, a Barbarian with 'magical' abilities wouldn't make sense.

 

Other systems have Wizards as the frail, sickly guys, with books, who can only memorize a magic missile, and years (levels) later become very powerful, reality bending monsters.  Again, reasonable system.  And one wouldn't expect a low level rogue to be teleporting there either.

Both of these are probably considered 'Low Magic' scenario's.

 

In higher magic scenarios, more people have more access to 'Magic', and how they access it is more the defining feature.

 

No one said, that in PoE2 that wizards are all about going to mage school for years, and come out as the only people able to perform magic.  In fact many of the tropes (and even mechanics from PoE1) for Wizards aren't in place here.  Wizards aren't less Healthy (same HP), less Accurate in combat, or people with more access to Magic or Spells than others (casts / uses per day).  While they could easily be running around with Wands shout 'Pew Pew' a Barbarian is just as good at that here.

 

In this setting, a Wizard can be a front line combatant, wearing plate mail, fighting with swords, and supporting himself with spells.

 

Its entirely possible that someone could decide what 'Wizard' should be within the system, and build their characters that way.  For Eg. I can decide I want Low HP, High 'Accuracy', Low Armor Use, and Slow, Powerful Spells with Long Durations, 'Traditional' Mage (Dump Con, Res, Dex, Raise Int, Per, Mig, wear Robes).  Someone else can build their Wizard as a High HP, High Armor, Dodgey, Rapid Firing, Elf, that uses a Bow...  And the system supports that. 

 

You can even build the same (thematically) character with different classes, and they will work slightly differently.  You could have a party of non Wizards, that all run around with different classes, using Rods, wearing Robes, and call them all different styles of Wizards...  or the reverse, build a party of Wizards, stat them differently, and make your whole party up with different styles, Tank Guy, Summoned Weapon Guy, Offensive Spell Guy...  There's lots of interesting character build options to explore.

 

All 'Wizard' means here, (and maybe this entire thing would have been avoided if they named it something else) is that your 'Magic' is governed by what 'Spells' you know, and what is in your Grimoire + Passive abilitys.  They are the only class that can just swap out a pice of gear (even mid combat) and act as if they just had a (mini) Free Retrain.

 

As a caster (Spells per Level) you can 'Do' more special things in a fight, than a non caster (eg. Mid level Caster might be able to pull off 10+ spells, Rogue might only have 6 Guile by that point, with some abilities costing 2 or 3).  And, 'Wizard' here means that you have the largest selection of 'abilities' (spells) of any class, with the most options as far as Elemental Damage, Support, Crowd Control...  (Not sure how to word that, other classes might have access to more of one of these 'categories' but no class has as much access overall)

 

We all get that this is not what you want a Wizard to be, and that's fine.  And since other classes have 'abilities' that you feel should belong to a Wizard (because only Wizards have access to magic), the whole thing just bothers you.

 

No one is trying to tell you, that your view on what a Wizard is, in some games / systems, is wrong.  Its just not what the system is in this game.

[EzekielMoerdyk]

Let's face it: the real magic which every single character has is the fact that they can lug around 17 pieces of plate mail, 13 pieces of ring mail, 27 greatswords, 840 assorted books of lore, an infinite number of mundane quarterstaffs, 23 cats and a cannon.  And survive for a week on a single meal of a piece of uncooked ham gutted from a pig on a beach.

 

This is a role-playing game, with your imagination filling in the gaps. If you want to play a nerdy, brainy character who was never picked for the rugby team and then decided to learn to incinerate his childhood enemies (hopefully by at least their ~50th reunion), make it up in your mind when you pick the wizard class. If you want to play a barbarian who screams "them magics are from the devil" and be thankful that he never skipped leg day at the gym, then make it up in your mind when you click the leap button.

 

(Side note. Running with the analogy of physics = magic, I have to mention that the traditional brainy physicist/wizard trope is so far out the window in the 21st century. I've got a MSc student in theoretical chemistry who is so ripped I swear he could've one-shotted Thaos himself whilst deriving some sweet equations. And sure, chemists are the bullies of the academic schoolyard, but still... if this dude can exist then a manscaped brawny wizard is surely plausible in Eora. Also see Neville Longbottom.).

 

If animations or a skill/class description doesn't fit your view of the fantasy world somebody else created, then either i) ignore it, ii) rationalise it, iii) mod it, or iv) play something else.

 

BTW, I'm replaying Baldur's gate while waiting for more balance patches, and really forgot the degree of 'realism' in that game. Restricted inventories and carrying weights, rogues having to actually stand in shadows to hide from sight, robey-wizards who can get finger-flicked to death if not buffed by spells beforehand, and supremely unmagical fighters who gets to be rerolled or dual-classed as a result of the absolute bore of playing them. OP, I don't know if you have ever played BG or if someone in this thread have already suggested it to you, but truly, go check it out and decide if that is what you really want.

 

EDIT: After reading through the thread (my apologies for not doing it in the first place), and I do see some of OPs point. If we really want to rationalise a high-magic fantasy setting (rather than just using your own imagination for your character), however, then I would like to offer an analogy other than the sciences. I've seen many people of all walks of life giving jaw-dropping musical performances, regardless of their training. I've heard engineers and mechanics, priests and plumbers sing or play an instrument using only in-born talent without any degree of formal training. Hell, in my native country singing is practically a requirement of many jobs, and my countrymen burst out in beautiful song and dance at any gathering of 4 or more people. Can any of these people perform Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde, or grab a file of sheet music and play a wedding gig on demand? Nope. An accountant might shred his guitar in a nu-metal band every other weekend, but he will never have the diversity and adaptability of a well-trained jazz muso. Training and talent are two entirely (and tragically sometimes mutually exclusive) different concepts.

 

In the same vein, is it then not unreasonable that fighters, barbarians and rogues have some talent in magic (in a world where soul-energy is literally seeping out the earth), used intuitively alongside their other skills, but will never come close to the diversity, precision and control of a wizard's training. In this world, I don't imagine that the wizard will "feel bad" when he sees the barbarian drawing flaming swords from his eyeholes - rather, he will scoff and imagine himself so much better (since he can summon an ogre which draws lightning greatswords from all of his orifices), as all professionals do when confronting an amateur.

 

I might not know how to build a smartphone, but I do know how to fix a broken infernal wifi router, and I definitely did not 'multiclass to an engineer'.

Edited June 12, 2018 by EzekielMoerdyk

[Lord_Mord]

 

Nothing to do with worldbuilding - it has ****ton of worldbuilding, many worlds, many settings - created exactly to experience many eras and mythological tales

 

Ok, ok, let me try it. We have the Kingdom of ... let's say Azgaardia in the north and Uthgaardia in the south (Nobody will ever get that references, because I'm so clever). Azgaardia is inhabited by the Azians, a mighty elder race (Exports: Mead, Meadhorns, Freedom and Honor), while Uthgaardia is inhabited by giant fire demons called ... the Joth (Exports: Metalwork, Weapons, Beef Jerky). They have an infinite war going on that devestated their lands and will ultimately lead to the end of the multiverse.

 

So. Worldbuilding done.

 

How was I?

 

 

and PoE is frankensteined from that. And you backed it twice.

I know. I backed it because of fun. I would never claim that it was the best example of worldbuilding there is. But it's frankensteined way more subtle than D&D.

 

 

 

Hell, in my native country singing is practically a requirement of many jobs, and my countrymen burst out in beautiful song and dance at any gathering of 4 or more people.

 

Where do you come from? I wanna live there.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Lord_Mord

[MortyTheGobbo]

 

 

My brother who plays a Rogue in WoW agrees that Shadow Step is in fact a teleport not just sneaking through the shadows. You go 'poof' and than 'poof' you're in a new spot.

 

 

That's because that's what actually happens, not what OP thinks happens.  Rogues also have an ability to vanish, teleport around a group of mobs, attack all of them instantly, and then re-appear back in front of their target. Warriors also have Heroic Leap, which is essentially identical to POE Barbarian Leap.  

 

I have played WOW off & on since launch, and last played a rogue & warrior and personally used all of these abilities about 3 mo. ago.

 

Anyway, I'm just going to re-iterate my previous post & leave this here: 

 

 

Ok yall win, everyones a mage. Yay. Delete the mage class plz

 

Yall have finally convinced me. The wizard is nothing special, he just does more of what everyone else does already. Got it. Heard. I will go play a barb

 

 

No one except yourself has argued that everyone is a mage or that wizards aren't special. So you've effectively won an argument against yourself, with arguments you made but no one else has.

Edited June 12, 2018 by MortyTheGobbo

[hilfazer]

Why does every class have to have magic?

 

Because...

 

when You press a button, something awesome has to happen.

 

Button = Awesome, connected now in Dragon Age PoE 2.

[Answermancer]

 

Ok yall win, everyones a mage. Yay. Delete the mage class plz

 

Yall have finally convinced me. The wizard is nothing special, he just does more of what everyone else does already. Got it. Heard. I will go play a barb

 

No one except yourself has argued that everyone is a mage or that wizards aren't special. So you've effectively won an argument against yourself, with arguments you made but no one else has.

 

Exactly.

[Loren Tyr]

 

Ok yall win, everyones a mage. Yay. Delete the mage class plz

 

Yall have finally convinced me. The wizard is nothing special, he just does more of what everyone else does already. Got it. Heard. I will go play a barb

 

 

No one except yourself has argued that everyone is a mage or that wizards aren't special. So you've effectively won an argument against yourself, with arguments you made but no one else has.

 

 

It only took him eleven pages though, so you know... uhm...

 

Sorry, no. That's just depressing . Maybe reading some world news will cheer me up though 

[Seroster01]

 

Ok yall win, everyones a mage. Yay. Delete the mage class plz

 

Yall have finally convinced me. The wizard is nothing special, he just does more of what everyone else does already. Got it. Heard. I will go play a barb

 

No one except yourself has argued that everyone is a mage or that wizards aren't special. So you've effectively won an argument against yourself, with arguments you made but no one else has.

 

If I could like this post more than once, I would.

[Boeroer]

it is pretty hard to argue against my point.

It is actually impossible because you have none. All you present is your highly subjective opinion and your totalitarian approach to press it into everybody's heads and don't acknowledge other people's opinions on that matter.

 

Actually a lot of people argued against your "points" that are based on narrow-mindedness and go in circles. They are the ones who made a couple of points where you haven't.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Boeroer