The Good and the Unfortunately Very Bad of POE2: a review NO SPOILERS

[Yosharian]

I don't think it makes them an expert as such, just, as you say, it affects them directly.

 

I was only responding to that particular post, but yes, I believe a large part of the pushback was due to those reasons, sure.

 

Isabella sounds pretty unique, but yeah, I do think that most trans people want to look like their chosen gender, rather than stand out as trans. It seems more rational than wanting to wear a sign that says 'trans person here'.

 

I fully admit I am not an expert on the subject so I can not claim to know what the majority of trans people think on the subject.

 

I think the writer is a virtue-signaling, talentless hack, sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

Given more weight? Perhaps... perhaps not. Maybe just taken into account.

 

The SoD affair is often painted as a bunch of transphobic basement-dwellers angry at representation/inclusion. I'm simply trying to show that it was a little more nuanced than that.

[gloomseeker]

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that the original post is actually filled with spoilers?

 

I mean the nonsense is there of course but the real problem is that anyone looking at this forum and reading the title of the thread probably doesn't expect to be told very specific details regarding so many characters including their names and locations and what the OP makes of their characterisation in the game (that last bit being really hard to do if you're going to add spoiler tags everywhere). 

[Yosharian]

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that the original post is actually filled with spoilers?

 

I mean the nonsense is there of course but the real problem is that anyone looking at this forum and reading the title of the thread probably doesn't expect to be told very specific details regarding so many characters including their names and locations and what the OP makes of their characterisation in the game (that last bit being really hard to do if you're going to add spoiler tags everywhere). 

 

As good as any reason to nuke it from the face of the earth, but then you'd miss the enjoyment of reading everyone slam dunking on it...

[wih]

 

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that the original post is actually filled with spoilers?

 

I mean the nonsense is there of course but the real problem is that anyone looking at this forum and reading the title of the thread probably doesn't expect to be told very specific details regarding so many characters including their names and locations and what the OP makes of their characterisation in the game (that last bit being really hard to do if you're going to add spoiler tags everywhere). 

 

As good as any reason to nuke it from the face of the earth, but then you'd miss the enjoyment of reading everyone slam dunking on it...

 

 

Maybe it should be moved in the Stories section.

[Katarack21]

I don't think it makes them an expert as such, just, as you say, it affects them directly.

 

I was only responding to that particular post, but yes, I believe a large part of the pushback was due to those reasons, sure.

 

Isabella sounds pretty unique, but yeah, I do think that most trans people want to look like their chosen gender, rather than stand out as trans. It seems more rational than wanting to wear a sign that says 'trans person here'.

 

I fully admit I am not an expert on the subject so I can not claim to know what the majority of trans people think on the subject.

 

I think the writer is a virtue-signaling, talentless hack, sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

Given more weight? Perhaps... perhaps not. Maybe just taken into account.

 

The SoD affair is often painted as a bunch of transphobic basement-dwellers angry at representation/inclusion. I'm simply trying to show that it was a little more nuanced than that.

1) But being affected by something doesn't mean I have any greater degree of knowledge or understanding about that thing. A transgendered person quite definitely has a much deeper understanding of what it means to be and live transgendered, but that's it. Being transgendered doesn't even necessarily guarantee the ability to write a transgendered person well.

 

2) Yeah, Bella is a unique individual, that's for damn sure. Awesome girl.

 

3) Oh, I get that you hate the writer and their writing. It's just that particular thing wasn't actually being debated.

 

4) I'm fully willing to admit that there was more to it than *just* angry transphobic basement-dwellers pissed off at inclusion...but there were a lot more angry transphobic basement-dwellers pissed off at inclusion screaming "SJW!" than there was well-thought out, reasonable, detailed explanations from trans people about how this made them feel. I don't have statistics for that or anything, just my own personal experience during the time where half the places I hang on the internet were going nuts with people screaming "SJW!" and their were, like....three things I saw from offended transgendered people.

 

On a tangentially related note, I do feel that a fair number of the reviews that have been posted the last couple of days have had nothing of substance to them beyond misogyny and raw, seething hatred for anything that doesn't fit their world view. I mean, seriously--between this threads thrilling "The male leaders in Deadfire, from what I can recall of these fictional non-entities, tend to be dandyish, vaguely silly and impossible to take seriously." line and the other review earlier today that said a female blacksmith is just ridiculous because nobody would ever hire her because any man could do a better job, I think it's pretty clear that either a group of trolls all showed up simultaneously out of nowhere or there is some tendency in a subset of gamers to take their own warped **** and transpose it onto this game.

[Casper]

 

 

 

also bulk doesn't necessarily translate to muscle. though it looks like someone already beat me to that point. *sigh*

 

In real world terms, muscle strength is directly correlated with muscle size - the literal length of muscle fibers, the density of those fibers, etc.  In terms of other settings, it's why dwarves either have a Strength bonus compared to humans, or why they're able to ignore the weight of armor that slows humans down (basically "they're strong for their size" in a different gameplay representation.)

 

That doesn't necessarily matter in Eora because of the soul power concept, but it does make me wonder why Dwarves and Amaua are apparently much stronger-willed (or however "soul power" is represented) than the other kith races, and why Orlans are weaker-willed while simultaneously stronger-willed compared to other kith.  Shortest answer is that they probably shouldn't have even had Might as a stat, or gone to great lengths to ensure that people understood the Might attribute has **** all to do with physical strength (even though in interactions it's virtually only ever used as raw physical strength...)

 

 

notice, i said bulk, as in body mass. not muscle. bulk doesn't equal muscle. that was my statement. 

 

though, somehow what you must have heard is muscle doesn't equal muscle.

does that even make any sense to anyone? as it surely doesn't to me.

[bugarup]

So, the OP just tossed some fertilizer onto the air ventilation system and slithered away? Hey, come back, you! I want to point and laugh! 

[rheingold]

Just some information. Games unless they are marketed and designed specifically to the gamergate crowd, do not do badly because of SJW influences. The people who complain bitterly about an attempt at making sure everyone is represented fairly are a minority. Actually a very small minority. Vocal, obnoxious, sure. But a minority nevertheless. In fact you can argue about the morals all you want, but it makes sense from a business sense for devs to court everyone, not just a small, bigoted group. Catering to gamergate, contrary to popular belief, will not keep them in business.

[jf8350143]

Oh come on, not another one of these.

Is the codex full up so you have to take this bs here or what?

Even codex won't talking about "too many females were in positions they weren't suppose to be in".

[Yosharian]

Just some information. Games unless they are marketed and designed specifically to the gamergate crowd, do not do badly because of SJW influences. The people who complain bitterly about an attempt at making sure everyone is represented fairly are a minority. Actually a very small minority. Vocal, obnoxious, sure. But a minority nevertheless. In fact you can argue about the morals all you want, but it makes sense from a business sense for devs to court everyone, not just a small, bigoted group. Catering to gamergate, contrary to popular belief, will not keep them in business.

 

Care to provide some examples?

[Tagaziel]

Care to provide some examples?

Every game released since the toilet back-up called Gamergate happened?

 

Except for Hatred, and that flared up on release and then died, because games catering to Gamergaters don't do well long-term.

[Yosharian]

 

Care to provide some examples?

Every game released since the toilet back-up called Gamergate happened?

 

Except for Hatred, and that flared up on release and then died, because games catering to Gamergaters don't do well long-term.

 

 

So you can't name any examples, then?

[Tagaziel]

So you can't name any examples, then?

It's kind of hard for me to list every game where GG had a non-impact, since it's pretty much every game released since.

[Selky]

Just some information. Games unless they are marketed and designed specifically to the gamergate crowd, do not do badly because of SJW influences. The people who complain bitterly about an attempt at making sure everyone is represented fairly are a minority. Actually a very small minority. Vocal, obnoxious, sure. But a minority nevertheless. In fact you can argue about the morals all you want, but it makes sense from a business sense for devs to court everyone, not just a small, bigoted group. Catering to gamergate, contrary to popular belief, will not keep them in business.

 

Judging from Deadfire's sales, the people who care about romancing bisexual companions seem to be a minority as well. What's the point of catering to a crowd who isn't going to buy your game anyway?

[geala]

 

Let's say there is a game. That game is very good and has great dialogue, characters and all the stuff a good game needs.

 

It also doesn't tell you what's right or wrong, it just describes things and let's you draw your own conclusions.

 

Let's say in that game eating meat is evil. I do eat meat in real life. But why would I be upset about it? Because I'm insecure.

 

Now let's say that in this game the world is so that women rule over men and that's just the way that fictional society works.

 

I am male. Why would I be upset? Because I am insecure and confused.

 

In this game there are no white people. I am white. But why would I be upset? Because I'm insecure and I'm afraid.

 

In this game every woman is lesbian and the only "use" men to produce offspring, but not for fun. Why would I, as a white straight male, be offended? Because I am insecure and feel useless?

 

In this game tall men get discriminated because being short is the norm and the ideal. Why would I, as a tall guy, be offended? Because I am insecure when it comes to my height???

 

The last part shows that usually people get angry about stuff where they feel insecure and are afraid. No man is insecure about being tall (if it's not extreme and you are considered a freak). Hence nobody would complain about a game where tall people get ditched.

 

Feeling insecure and afraid is not considered to be very manly.

 

What an irony!

 

I would never have thought you could post something so silly, Boeroer.

 

 

This surprises me, as Boeroer told us in short form a lot about why humans act like they act. You can extrapolate from it to most of the political, religious and other ideological stuff going round and round since ever and today, in big scale society and personal dimensions.

 

To the topic, if those are the main critical points, then PoED seems to be in good shape (as I believe them mostly wrong or irrelevant). However, the "god's story"  becomes a bit pale, I have to admit, so there is some validity in it. And sadly the author forgot the main failure of the game, the lack of wearable native skirts clothing with bare feet, I want it for my PC. 

[Yosharian]

 

So you can't name any examples, then?

It's kind of hard for me to list every game where GG had a non-impact, since it's pretty much every game released since.

 

 

Can you name one?

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

Personally I like equality and I mean true equality.

 

I will start by saying what I want in game is simple;

 

I want well written character

I want well written story

I want well written companions

 

I want enjoy it for what it is. I really don't want game checking boxes make sure its not discriminating some group. Why do I want game that simply just game cause I want to enjoy. If look at any game even one where spent ages checking boxes please everyone you can still find discrimination. If you want find it you will. People are people and non of us are same.

 

Obsidian simply just build good characters and companions.

 

Also people really want stop think todays oppressed become tomorrows opressors. This has and is happening. Both sides are as bad as each other at times.

 

SJW yeah seen woman in hollywood that suggested all males should have pay cut to match woman, sounds like equality right, is it what about poor family from poor country doesn't have same rights, wife no maternity pay gets pregnant has look after child/ or husband stays home. They no maternity pay and one working person brings less money home in poor country where pay drop guy takes might kill that child, even if doesn't will effect childs health and wellbeing. Not really equality is it.

 

Pushing equality what direction are things heading we had Trump in white house Briexit and lot countries came close voting in racist, Italy almost has racist party inpower if they make agreements. SJW talk of equality and yet are pushing world towards war and to hate.

 

I got nothing say about other side. I not going talk about racist and people haters.

 

I am all for equality but not when it hurts people, destroys life because people push to far without thought.

 

Simple answer is let games be games and let people enjoy them.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Are we still arguing about the "might is soul power" thing? RPGs with bog-standard strength stats have allowed female characters with the exact same attribute spread as male ones since pretty much forever, with the exception of Arcanum... and even there, that 1 isn't going to make that much of a difference. And yet, it's suddenly a problem now.

[PizzaSHARK]

Are we still arguing about the "might is soul power" thing? RPGs with bog-standard strength stats have allowed female characters with the exact same attribute spread as male ones since pretty much forever, with the exception of Arcanum... and even there, that 1 isn't going to make that much of a difference. And yet, it's suddenly a problem now.

 

It's not a problem.  Who said it was a problem?

[PizzaSHARK]

 

 

 

 

also bulk doesn't necessarily translate to muscle. though it looks like someone already beat me to that point. *sigh*

 

In real world terms, muscle strength is directly correlated with muscle size - the literal length of muscle fibers, the density of those fibers, etc.  In terms of other settings, it's why dwarves either have a Strength bonus compared to humans, or why they're able to ignore the weight of armor that slows humans down (basically "they're strong for their size" in a different gameplay representation.)

 

That doesn't necessarily matter in Eora because of the soul power concept, but it does make me wonder why Dwarves and Amaua are apparently much stronger-willed (or however "soul power" is represented) than the other kith races, and why Orlans are weaker-willed while simultaneously stronger-willed compared to other kith.  Shortest answer is that they probably shouldn't have even had Might as a stat, or gone to great lengths to ensure that people understood the Might attribute has **** all to do with physical strength (even though in interactions it's virtually only ever used as raw physical strength...)

 

 

notice, i said bulk, as in body mass. not muscle. bulk doesn't equal muscle. that was my statement. 

 

though, somehow what you must have heard is muscle doesn't equal muscle.

does that even make any sense to anyone? as it surely doesn't to me.

 

 

 

I'm not interested in arguing about you using intentionally vague terms so you don't have to admit flaws in your argument.

[Mikeymoonshine]

 

> The reason why Gamergate and many others acted against and actively demanded its removal was not the above quote, it was sheer plain transphobia

 

It really wasn't.

 

 

I agree that criticism of those lines and their implementation was not inherently transphobic, plenty of people including many trans people took issue with them but I think the fact that it became this massive deal had something to do with transphobia. The focus on that was a lot bigger than the focus on Minsc literally trashing gamergate in the game for example. A lot of people who may not activly hate women and minorities have this kneejerk reaction to their inclusion as anything other than some kind of spectacle that caters to the perspective of straight white cisgendered men.

 

I'm saying this as a person who was involved in GG, I know a lot of these people. They aren't all evil woman haters from the 4chan. That was always a lie but there is certainly a lot of transphobia in that community, both concious and subconcious.

[Amentep]

This forum is not for discussion of "SJWs", "Gamergate", each other, or Hitler.

 

Whatever utility this thread may have had appears exhausted.