Why Is Resting/Injuries and Maybe Even Supplies, Still In At All?

[Tigranes]

"We all get how per encounter is much better than per rest"

 

No we don't, not necessarily, not always, as if it's a case of ice being colder than fire.

 

That said, I agree: POE2 has abandoned so many of the cornerstones for that kind of gameplay, that the vestigial features like resting have lost coherence. They really need to now go back to the drawing board and figure out what is a simple and sensible way of doling out resources for combat - because the current mix offers no meaningful challenge or decisionmaking.

[Boeroer]

Besides resting and injuries: what I really don't like is that scrolls, bombs and especially potions (with a lot of Alchemy) are so good that your build quality and your "gaming skill" don't matter at all as long as you have consumables.

 

Once I run into a "three red skulls" encounter I drop an empowered spell, gulp down some crazy potions and throw some grenades and that means I usually win.

[Tigranes]

Consumables were overpowered in the first game under certain conditions, now they seem, as far as I can tell, more unrestrained. It's strange how the painstaking attention to detail, sometimes yielding convoluted rules in some parts of the game systems, are utterly missing here, allowing you to vacuum up every herb in the land without trying and then craft enough stuff to win a small island war.

[JFutral]

Consumables were overpowered in the first game under certain conditions, now they seem, as far as I can tell, more unrestrained. It's strange how the painstaking attention to detail, sometimes yielding convoluted rules in some parts of the game systems, are utterly missing here, allowing you to vacuum up every herb in the land without trying and then craft enough stuff to win a small island war.

 

What I hated about consumables in PoE1 was how easily and often I could be interrupted when trying to imbibe. Made sipping a potion near impossible and most of the time pointless. I haven't had that problem so far in Deadfire, not that I can tell, anyway.

 

I still kind of hate that I can't use them until "Combat start". That restriction still drives me nuts and makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Joe

[Rumpelstilskin]

 

I still kind of hate that I can't use them until "Combat start". That restriction still drives me nuts and makes no sense whatsoever.

 

it's supposed to put a stop to pre-buffing. it only makes sense as a game mechanic; realistically yeah, it's hard to justify it. but the idea itself is sound i think, since pre-buffing is extremely tedious, but if you as a designer assume no pre-buffing, players who do it will find the game too easy, albeit tedious. with combat buffs only you'll at least have to choose and prioritize them more carefully.

[JFutral]

 

 

I still kind of hate that I can't use them until "Combat start". That restriction still drives me nuts and makes no sense whatsoever.

 

it's supposed to put a stop to pre-buffing. it only makes sense as a game mechanic; realistically yeah, it's hard to justify it. but the idea itself is sound i think, since pre-buffing is extremely tedious, but if you as a designer assume no pre-buffing, players who do it will find the game too easy, albeit tedious. with combat buffs only you'll at least have to choose and prioritize them more carefully.

 

 

I do think there are ways to balance against it, one way devs have implemented already is in terms of making noise that gets you noticed. Or more obviously the buff won't last as long during combat if taken ahead of combat. Plus I've already been hit a couple of times by the enemy with Arcane Damper. It doesn't have to break the game.

 

Joe

[Nights86]

Even if the patches fix all the lack of difficulty issues, if nothing is done to somehow make resting meaningful it will all be in vain. There is absolutely no point to having injuries, per rest items, per rest empowers, if you can rest after every single fight.

 

The lack of incentive to avoid injuries, the lack of reward for doing so ruins a lot of other systems too. Why play better, why use grenades, why use traps, why use items, why use clever tactics, why avoid nuking your own tanks even, if you can just press the magic reset button, for free, every time, as long as 1 person is left standing at the end? Should I cast withdraw to save my mage or just press rest after? I won already, whatever, it doesn't matter.

 

I refuse to believe the existence of per rest mechanics is purely a legacy thing and not an expression of a desire to have SOME meaningful strategy-based gameplay. Heck, we have to manage ship resources - even if they are abundant. Please, expand those systems to the point where they are meaningful. 

[cokane]

Even if the patches fix all the lack of difficulty issues, if nothing is done to somehow make resting meaningful it will all be in vain. There is absolutely no point to having injuries, per rest items, per rest empowers, if you can rest after every single fight.

 

The lack of incentive to avoid injuries, the lack of reward for doing so ruins a lot of other systems too. Why play better, why use grenades, why use traps, why use items, why use clever tactics, why avoid nuking your own tanks even, if you can just press the magic reset button, for free, every time, as long as 1 person is left standing at the end? Should I cast withdraw to save my mage or just press rest after? I won already, whatever, it doesn't matter.

 

I refuse to believe the existence of per rest mechanics is purely a legacy thing and not an expression of a desire to have SOME meaningful strategy-based gameplay. Heck, we have to manage ship resources - even if they are abundant. Please, expand those systems to the point where they are meaningful. 

 

Agreed so much with the sentiments here. People who say Per Rest is just nostalgia simply do not know what they're talking about. As I've said before, the combat system of realtime with pause is in reality just a form of turn-based combat. It's a more enjoyable form, imo. But the only thing combat is testing you on these games is the same thing any turn-based game tests: good tactical/strategic decision-making. It's testing the same skills as a game like chess. This isn't testing the fast reflexes or quick decision making of games like the Diablo series.

 

And without a meaningful strategic layer that carries between the combats -- even the deeply flawed ones of BG and PoE1 -- little of your combat decision-making ends up mattering. And so much flows out of the supposed combat challenge: more than half your character build is exclusively about combat, your gear is entirely about its effect on combat, most of the consumables and most of the crafting. None of these systems are actually worth exploring in depth given the current non-challenge of combat.

[FlintlockJazz]

Resting was included originally in the IE games because it was a part of the tabletop experience that as others have said adds a strategic layer (managing resources between fights) and without it you lose a part of that tabletop experience a lot of us enjoy. I find it strange that when people encounter something they have a problem with rather than try to fix it they instead just demand its removal and the reduction of the experience. Instead of asking for it to be removed, why not look at how it can be improved? For instance, the tabletop version has people deciding on who is on guard, events that can happen while they are resting (not necessarily combat either), etc, maybe look at what can be implemented in a Pillars game (and which wouldn't work).

[rdarken]

 

Also, I watch for characters having some sort of annoying curse on them.  I'll usually rest to get rid of those.

 

 

I think this is a bug. Those curses come from the totems that you find in dungeons near certain enemies. They pulse the effect, but I THINK it's supposed to be cleared upon leaving combat. Doesn't seem to be the case all the time, though, especially if you re-engage in combat to destroy them.

 

Those totems themselves are kind of weird... If you force attack them, your characters will get one attack off, then combat will break until you force attack it again.

[Crucis]

 

 

Also, I watch for characters having some sort of annoying curse on them.  I'll usually rest to get rid of those.

 

 

I think this is a bug. Those curses come from the totems that you find in dungeons near certain enemies. They pulse the effect, but I THINK it's supposed to be cleared upon leaving combat. Doesn't seem to be the case all the time, though, especially if you re-engage in combat to destroy them.

 

Those totems themselves are kind of weird... If you force attack them, your characters will get one attack off, then combat will break until you force attack it again.

 

 

I don't know if the enduring curse is a bug or not.  But resting does make them go away.

 

OTOH, there are a number of beneficial effects that simply do NOT go away, whether you rest or not.  For example, I had Pallegina in my party for a while, and of course, she was using one of here Zealous abilities.  And it stuck on my 3 characters who've never left the party, my PC, Eder, and Xoti.  Even when I have Pallegina leave the party, her Zealous effects don't go away from those other party members.  Something's clearly wrong.

[evilcat]

The tomes curse is annoying feature, the fact that even after combat this remain for long time.

Also there is something with killing totems, that ai does not detect totem as enemy.

I generally use flamewall to burn the thing down.

 

Resting have some potencial as Witcher's elixirs, when you pick buffs which will help you with next fight. Like domination immunity, or poison immunity. That is way to go.

Edited May 29, 2018 by evilcat

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Also, I watch for characters having some sort of annoying curse on them.  I'll usually rest to get rid of those.

 

 

I think this is a bug. Those curses come from the totems that you find in dungeons near certain enemies. They pulse the effect, but I THINK it's supposed to be cleared upon leaving combat. Doesn't seem to be the case all the time, though, especially if you re-engage in combat to destroy them.

 

Those totems themselves are kind of weird... If you force attack them, your characters will get one attack off, then combat will break until you force attack it again.

 

 

I don't know if the enduring curse is a bug or not.  But resting does make them go away.

 

OTOH, there are a number of beneficial effects that simply do NOT go away, whether you rest or not.  For example, I had Pallegina in my party for a while, and of course, she was using one of here Zealous abilities.  And it stuck on my 3 characters who've never left the party, my PC, Eder, and Xoti.  Even when I have Pallegina leave the party, her Zealous effects don't go away from those other party members.  Something's clearly wrong.

 

 

Some aura effects get stuck to other members when you remove one with aura from your party in the ship. Pallegina's auras are one and also Xoti's lanter bonuses seem to do that also and some other item auras.

[Elerond]

The tomes curse is annoying feature, the fact that even after combat this remain for long time.

Also there is something with killing totems, that ai does not detect totem as enemy.

I generally use flamewall to burn the thing down.

 

Resting have some potencial as Witcher's elixirs, when you pick buffs which will help you with next fight. Like domination immunity, or poison immunity. That is way to go.

 

Totems aren't enemies they are enviromental objects like barrels and that seems to be by design and not by bug, one of the main reason behind of that decision was probably just to ensure that AI doesn't make your party members to engage with totems instead of more threatening enemies or run towards totems, especially death totems (which curse aura gives characters injuries) when there isn't real enemies in present and preventing totems locking your party in combat when they are only things left standing.

[Crucis]

The tomes curse is annoying feature, the fact that even after combat this remain for long time.

Also there is something with killing totems, that ai does not detect totem as enemy.

I generally use flamewall to burn the thing down.

 

Resting have some potencial as Witcher's elixirs, when you pick buffs which will help you with next fight. Like domination immunity, or poison immunity. That is way to go.

 

I think you meant "totems" rather than "tomes".  I wasn't aware of any books causing curses in PoE2. 

[rdarken]

 

The tomes curse is annoying feature, the fact that even after combat this remain for long time.

Also there is something with killing totems, that ai does not detect totem as enemy.

I generally use flamewall to burn the thing down.

 

Resting have some potencial as Witcher's elixirs, when you pick buffs which will help you with next fight. Like domination immunity, or poison immunity. That is way to go.

 

Totems aren't enemies they are enviromental objects like barrels and that seems to be by design and not by bug, one of the main reason behind of that decision was probably just to ensure that AI doesn't make your party members to engage with totems instead of more threatening enemies or run towards totems, especially death totems (which curse aura gives characters injuries) when there isn't real enemies in present and preventing totems locking your party in combat when they are only things left standing.

 

 

I don't think this was directed at me, but just in case, I'm responding

 

I'm sure the way combat works with them is intended, but what I meant was that I think the curses are sticking to characters until rest because of it. It seems like they're supposed to be removed when combat ends, but since they're treated as environmental objects and don't fully start up combat, it seems like it causes their curses to stay after "combat" ends instead of falling off. If that makes sense.

[Boeroer]

I don't think the curses are meant to get removed after combat. They are another kind of "injury" you can get. But for every "totem" you can find a stone that removes the curse on usage.

 

I don't know if it's intentional that the curses don't get removed after resting though.

[PizzaSHARK]

 

 

I still kind of hate that I can't use them until "Combat start". That restriction still drives me nuts and makes no sense whatsoever.

 

it's supposed to put a stop to pre-buffing. it only makes sense as a game mechanic; realistically yeah, it's hard to justify it. but the idea itself is sound i think, since pre-buffing is extremely tedious, but if you as a designer assume no pre-buffing, players who do it will find the game too easy, albeit tedious. with combat buffs only you'll at least have to choose and prioritize them more carefully.

 

 

Except players already solve this by just plinking someone with an arrow and chugging potions and buffing before combat actually starts.

 

 

Personally, I'd rather buffs be activated automatically on entering combat - maybe have a single quickslot that's dedicated to "drink this/apply this poison/cast this buff scroll centered on you etc immediately at the start of combat" with severely reduced activation and recovery times... but you can only ever have ONE of them in that slot at any given time.  With how pervasive crafting and consumables are, it's kind of dumb to make it so cumbersome to use them or pretend like players won't use them in every battle (unless they can't be bothered because it's a pain in the ass.)  After that, make use of consumables in combat provoke a Disengagement Attack (maybe just need to rename them to Attack of Opportunity, there's a reason AOs have been in every edition of d20 since 3E and are commonly seen in other rule systems too - they solve a lot of problems by adding necessary risk to certain actions) to discourage spamming consumables without carefully considering the tactical situation.

 

I'd also change buff spells to universally have very short (0.5 sec) cast times, and then also change it so that Inspirations and Afflictions run concurrently and Inspirations don't suppress Afflictions (although they'll cancel each other out, such as a +5 Intelligence and a -5 Intelligence, but other things like friend-or-foe attacks, Power Level increase, etc remain.)

[Silent Winter]

 

 

 

I still kind of hate that I can't use them until "Combat start". That restriction still drives me nuts and makes no sense whatsoever.

 

it's supposed to put a stop to pre-buffing. it only makes sense as a game mechanic; realistically yeah, it's hard to justify it. but the idea itself is sound i think, since pre-buffing is extremely tedious, but if you as a designer assume no pre-buffing, players who do it will find the game too easy, albeit tedious. with combat buffs only you'll at least have to choose and prioritize them more carefully.

 

 

Except players already solve this by just plinking someone with an arrow and chugging potions and buffing before combat actually starts.

 

Sure - but that's still vs. plinking someone with an arrow and throwing a fireball/etc at the oncoming enemies.