Why are some weapon types just flat out horrible compared to others?

[gloomseeker]

 

 

Regarding rapiers specifically, I don't see why they're even a weapon type used in this game.  They don't seem to be at all compatible with an era where heavier weapons are common.  Rapiers seem more like a weapon of nobility for a different era than an era where you have warriors using much heavier swords, maces, and all those 2H weapons.

 

I was under the impression that rapiers are as heavy or heavier than any other 1H sword, and even 2H swords.

 

Indeed, it's a myth that rapiers are a light nimble weapon suited to weaker but more dextrous fighters. They were typically slightly heavier than arming swords (the classic knightly one handed sword of the early/high middle ages) and their length made them harder to wield (due to weight distribution). In another of his videos Matt states that he thinks the heavier two-handed longsword is an easier weapon to learn for beginners who lack specific strength because it uses two hands.

 

 

Very good points.

 

Rapiers are still very fast in the right hands. 

 

We should probably blame swashbuckling movies for blurring the line between foils and rapiers. 

 

[JerekKruger]

Rapiers are still very fast in the right hands.

Oh definitely, but to be fast requires a certain amount of specific strength/endurance whereas I think a lot of people imagine it'd be easy to wield a rapier and easy to be fast whereas a two-handed sword would be hard work and slow (a longsword ain't slow at all), but we can blame movies there as well.

[Witness41920]

That's accurate as hell. My bow-based rogue/cipher eventually had to add a scepter to his arsenal just to deal with the damn skeletons.

Yeah, my Rogue Devoted/Assassin with pistols had to take the Monk off-training so he could punch skeletons and constructs to death.

[Nemesis7884]

Maybe thats my subjective impression but sooo many things have super high pierclng resistance

[Nemesis7884]

The stiletto from rust and the rapier from the vault are probably the best weapons for thieves....speed, accuracy, flanking bonus, ctit effects...but both piercing

[Witness41920]

 

Rapiers are still very fast in the right hands.

Oh definitely, but to be fast requires a certain amount of specific strength/endurance whereas I think a lot of people imagine it'd be easy to wield a rapier and easy to be fast whereas a two-handed sword would be hard work and slow (a longsword ain't slow at all), but we can blame movies there as well.

 

You can more specifically blame Dungeons and Dragons as well as other early fantasy settings for confusing people. Your average D&D player has probably never even looked at actual armor and weapons used in the Medieval Era and other time periods which are emulated by these fantasy settings.

 

The fallacy that full plate armor is absurdly heavy and restrictive to movement is borne from this same problem. Players who have "learned" everything they know about these weapons and armor types from video games and tabletop RPGs will have a great many erroneous notions.

 

Full plate armor was not insanely heavy and restrictive to movement unless it was jousting armor or ceremonial in nature, otherwise it would have been useless on the battlefield. Your full-plate wearing combatants had trained and conditioned themselves to wear the heavier armor to the point of being quite agile in it, they could run, jump, swim, do push-ups and other mundane activities just fine.

 

Another example is the longsword vs the shortsword in D&D. The "shortsword" is actually the arming sword or the broadsword, also known as the most commonly issued and used armament of soldiers and warriors. The "longsword" is actually a very unwieldy weapon that took a higher-than-average strength to wield with one hand and was often wielded as a two-handed weapon with less reach but more versatility than the claymore (greatsword) or other similar two-handed weapons.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Oh:

 

if I were making changes to the weapons, I'd suggest either adding a point of DR to all armors across the board, or removing a point of Pen from all weapons across the board. I think this would restore a bit of balance towards the high pen weapons. 

 

Back in beta excessive DR was a huge problem so they double nerfed it -- they added a more sliding scale to the pen calculation, and they added a point of pen to everything, so the default became all weapons penetrate, meaning the high DPS weapons no longer really had a downside.

[Farsha]

Regarding rapiers specifically, I don't see why they're even a weapon type used in this game.  They don't seem to be at all compatible with an era where heavier weapons are common.  Rapiers seem more like a weapon of nobility for a different era than an era where you have warriors using much heavier swords, maces, and all those 2H weapons.

 

 

Rapier can be as heavy as medival arming sword (1,5kg) It's actually not a light weapon at all, that would be a smallsword or a spadroon.

Rapier can be heavier than viking type sword for example that is around 1.2kg.

And they are very in their place in this game, the colonial setting. rapiers apear around 1500AD.

Rapier is not light or fragile, it's big onehanded weapon and due it's lenght, stiffness and quality they can be considered superior to many earlier type swords if used correctly

That being said, they do suck in this game and are not represented correcly in stats (they have low penetraion and are to fast, and have no cutting dmg)

Edited May 22, 2018 by Farsha

[JerekKruger]

You can more specifically blame Dungeons and Dragons as well as other early fantasy settings for confusing people. Your average D&D player has probably never even looked at actual armor and weapons used in the Medieval Era and other time periods which are emulated by these fantasy settings.

 

The fallacy that full plate armor is absurdly heavy and restrictive to movement is borne from this same problem. Players who have "learned" everything they know about these weapons and armor types from video games and tabletop RPGs will have a great many erroneous notions.

 

Full plate armor was not insanely heavy and restrictive to movement unless it was jousting armor or ceremonial in nature, otherwise it would have been useless on the battlefield. Your full-plate wearing combatants had trained and conditioned themselves to wear the heavier armor to the point of being quite agile in it, they could run, jump, swim, do push-ups and other mundane activities just fine.

 

Another example is the longsword vs the shortsword in D&D. The "shortsword" is actually the arming sword or the broadsword, also known as the most commonly issued and used armament of soldiers and warriors. The "longsword" is actually a very unwieldy weapon that took a higher-than-average strength to wield with one hand and was often wielded as a two-handed weapon with less reach but more versatility than the claymore (greatsword) or other similar two-handed weapons.

I wish I could like this post more than once, particularly the stuff about plate.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

Rapiers are still very fast in the right hands.

Oh definitely, but to be fast requires a certain amount of specific strength/endurance whereas I think a lot of people imagine it'd be easy to wield a rapier and easy to be fast whereas a two-handed sword would be hard work and slow (a longsword ain't slow at all), but we can blame movies there as well.

 

You can more specifically blame Dungeons and Dragons as well as other early fantasy settings for confusing people. Your average D&D player has probably never even looked at actual armor and weapons used in the Medieval Era and other time periods which are emulated by these fantasy settings.

 

The fallacy that full plate armor is absurdly heavy and restrictive to movement is borne from this same problem. Players who have "learned" everything they know about these weapons and armor types from video games and tabletop RPGs will have a great many erroneous notions.

 

Full plate armor was not insanely heavy and restrictive to movement unless it was jousting armor or ceremonial in nature, otherwise it would have been useless on the battlefield. Your full-plate wearing combatants had trained and conditioned themselves to wear the heavier armor to the point of being quite agile in it, they could run, jump, swim, do push-ups and other mundane activities just fine.

 

Another example is the longsword vs the shortsword in D&D. The "shortsword" is actually the arming sword or the broadsword, also known as the most commonly issued and used armament of soldiers and warriors. The "longsword" is actually a very unwieldy weapon that took a higher-than-average strength to wield with one hand and was often wielded as a two-handed weapon with less reach but more versatility than the claymore (greatsword) or other similar two-handed weapons.

 

 

 

The recent FPS Kingdom Come: Deliverance gets this stuff right. It has a lot of other issues but it put a lot of work into getting this stuff correct.

[youspoonybard]

 

 

 

Rapiers are still very fast in the right hands.

Oh definitely, but to be fast requires a certain amount of specific strength/endurance whereas I think a lot of people imagine it'd be easy to wield a rapier and easy to be fast whereas a two-handed sword would be hard work and slow (a longsword ain't slow at all), but we can blame movies there as well.

 

You can more specifically blame Dungeons and Dragons as well as other early fantasy settings for confusing people. Your average D&D player has probably never even looked at actual armor and weapons used in the Medieval Era and other time periods which are emulated by these fantasy settings.

 

The fallacy that full plate armor is absurdly heavy and restrictive to movement is borne from this same problem. Players who have "learned" everything they know about these weapons and armor types from video games and tabletop RPGs will have a great many erroneous notions.

 

Full plate armor was not insanely heavy and restrictive to movement unless it was jousting armor or ceremonial in nature, otherwise it would have been useless on the battlefield. Your full-plate wearing combatants had trained and conditioned themselves to wear the heavier armor to the point of being quite agile in it, they could run, jump, swim, do push-ups and other mundane activities just fine.

 

Another example is the longsword vs the shortsword in D&D. The "shortsword" is actually the arming sword or the broadsword, also known as the most commonly issued and used armament of soldiers and warriors. The "longsword" is actually a very unwieldy weapon that took a higher-than-average strength to wield with one hand and was often wielded as a two-handed weapon with less reach but more versatility than the claymore (greatsword) or other similar two-handed weapons.

 

 

 

The recent FPS Kingdom Come: Deliverance gets this stuff right. It has a lot of other issues but it put a lot of work into getting this stuff correct.

 

 

Fast weapons are actually the highest dps overall, and even better now that you can't reasonably and consistently lower recovery to zero. Not sure if Brilliant enabling you to spam abilities makes a big enough difference to counter this. Accurate weapons are a solid choice - they're really good at the beginning, only dropping off when ways to buff your accuracy / debuff opponent's deflection really start kicking in. Daggers, Clubs and Rapiers are some of the BEST weapon types in the game, use the one whose type of damage you need. Clubs even have an amazing modal as well!

 

Flails, now, that 10% conversion is not good. The modal is good, but Reflex is usually used for AoE damage; how useful is lowering one mob's reflex score in a pack? Maybe it's good with a HoF barb to debuff ... but really, there is little reason to pick up a flail instead of a club.

 

I agree that the high pen weapons are in a weak place - you're always better off lowering enemy armor and making sure you're using the right weapon.

[asnjas]

As long as the weapons are balanced closely enough then its fine.i don't mean to sound like the gf that likes her baseball team based on uniform color, but I really do pick weapons based on look or theme of the character.

 

And no I don't play potd. I play classic difficulty.

[flamesium]

I swear no enemy ever drops a pike. 

 

I really like the weapon modal idea in general - the ones which reduce certain defenses are a neat way of introducing some much needed combo play between your party members.

[KDubya]

You really need to factor in attack and recovery speed into weapon damage comparisons. Faster usually ends up doing more damage than harder hitting unless you are using full attacks.

 

The +5 accuracy ends up adding +10% damage and is very useful.

 

All of you guys wanting deflection buffs to quarterstaffs need to look at the modal for quarterstaffs, it adds deflection  

[PugPug]

As expected. Same thing happened in The Witcher 3 and Borderlands 2...

 

When you have as many weapons as such, some will feel underwhelming :/

 

Sorry about that.

 

Wait, Borderlands 2? What changed, besides adding lasers?

[Epimetreus]

I swear no enemy ever drops a pike.

The only one I remember is a unique dropped by one of the early ship-captain bounties. I like it.