Gromnir

Apparently, the guy who did the sci-fi review is the same guy who did the first (now removed) 1up review. His name is Matt Peckham and as far as I can tell, he mostly seems to dislike NWN2 for actually being a D&D game, which it claims to be, and not an Oblivion clone. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> thanks for the info. we didn't even bother looking at the reviewer's name. that being said, the current 1-up review ain't much better than the original. mr. green seemed to think that nwn2 were a pretty nice game, but found so unplayable 'cause of bugs... which makes us wonder if he played the original nwn. now THAT were a game with some serious stability issues. nwn were the last game we bought day 1, and for good reason(s.) didn't stop green and cgw from making nwn an editor's choice selection. HA! Good Fun!

we play crpgs. vol may not be aware of this, but more than a few crpgs has been d&d. duh. also, when Gromnir first started playing pnp rpgs, d&d were the only option. then came along games like tunnels and trolls and numerous pretenders. since the early days o' role-play we has played champions and rolemaster and gurps and a dozen other systems you probably not even familiar with. also, vol may not be aware o' this, but pnp is a group activity. not being a fan of d&d hardly prevents Gromnir from enjoying the occasional d&d rp session. as we has stated once or twice before, with role-play the rules is always secondary. our best gaming group ever were actually played with tunnels and trolls, which were a terrible system. we give far too much time and consideration to vol's recent comments. blather on if you must, but please try to raise level o' your nonsense so Gromnir and others not have to endure such silliness. 'least throw in a joke or two so we get some entertainment value from having to endure vol's brain farts come-to-life in post form. am thanksing you in advance for the future consideration. HA! Good Fun!

"The engine used in BG2 is vastly superior, but from a design perspective it's debatable which is the better game. I play both roughly once per year using the BG2 engine (tutu) and for me both are roughly the same in quality, but for different reasons." am gonna have to disagree with you here. bg 1 were nowhere near the game bg2 were. story and character development and settings and critters and everything else in bg2 were simply... better, but this is an old argument, and the True Fans will never be able to see clear with the glory o' bg blinding 'em. and as any serious pnp d&d player, at mid to higher levels, the equipment Makes the character. is one of the flaws of d&d. oh, and surviving a fight and win a fight is not the same thing, not in a party based game. in pnp if you survive at cost of have all your party mates wiped out and most potions/scrolls used, then you lost the battle for all intents and purposes. if cost of victory is too high, then you lost. "Oblivion may not be good, from a rules perspective, but at least its not something I've played thirty times already. And, like I said, D&D ain't real good either in a crpg setting either, so its not like we are comparing genius to idiocy" lord knows we ain't a defender of the wotc faith. Gromnir is not a fan of d&d and the way it has evolved recently. that being said, change for its own sake don't impress us neither. HA! Good Fun!

btw, while it has become popular to hate d&d of late, it is patently obvious to Gromnir that to come up with the ruleset for oblivion, the bethesda guys guys didn't get much help from seasoned rpg game developers. if Gromnir were 13 again, and we wanted to build our first rules system and we wanted to make it real kewl with lots of "boss" powers and freedom and "stuff," well then, we might have been able to come up with oblivion rules... if we were drunk at the time. is so many balance concerns and counter-intuitve results that we cannot figure out how anybody could sneer at d&d but welcome oblivion's attempt. d&d is broken in many ways, but it sure as hell ain't any worse than oblivion's wacky rules. reviewers who congratulate bethesda's efforts, but criticize obsidian for using tired old d&d shoulds be ashamed of selves. Gromnir is no big fan of d&d, but je and oblivion didn't exactly come up with a better mousetrap by any stretch o' the imagination. HA! Good Fun!

reviewers is 'posed to be fair and balanced. game developers and publishers is NOT in the business of being fair and balanced. developers and publishers is in the business of selling games... unles you worked for troika, and then your business were to see just how long you could manage to get a free ride based on reputation of fallout... or maybe you were in business to see just how many publishers you could alienate before going out of business yourself. congrats to troika on managing to get 3 strikes before being called out. btw, the reviewers is doing a pretty piss-poor job of being fair and balanced. repost: nwn2 has many problems. is more than a few technical issues. the inventory systsem is a nightmare. auto-resurrection kotors/nerfs combat. play different class or race seems to not have much impact on game. some of the npcs has very little to contribute as far as dialogues is concerned. etc. nevertheless, we is surprised at just how terrible some of the reviews is. 1) we suspect that more than a few reviewers gots some misplaced guilt 'bout nwn. anybody recall the nwn reviews? most was ridiculously good. we enjoyed nwn and we saw loads of potential, but the reviews from gamespot and cgw and other sources were a bit too good. we suspect that more than a few of those reviewers who made arses of selves with their 9/10 reviews is looking for a little misplaced payback this time 'round. "nobody is going to be able to to accuse me of being soft on NWN2, that is for damn sure." 2) the bg effect strikes again bg had a cliche story with a hole-punch bad guy (if vol weren't surprised by Ultimate Bad Guy for nwn2, then we wonders what level of contempt he had for sarevok.) the quests were almost all fed-ex, and the npcs added little more than a catchphrase and a stat sheet. most of those maps peoples loved to "explore" (HA!) had little actual game content on 'em save for a laughably shallow quest and maybe a hobgoblin ambush or two. nevertheless, bg were the first playable d&d game for quite some time, and peoples were so damned starved for crpgs just then... and for those looking for a little more rpg than were available in diablo, bg were a nice change. regardless, bg were a seriously flawed game that somehow managed to becomes embraced by fans in spite of shortcomings. bg2 comes out and improves on bg in almost every way imagined. sure, bg2 had problems, but it were a damned sight better than bg. 'course reality not match recollection of the True Fan. the hardcore bg fan somehow saw everything that were good 'bout bg w/o noticing flaws. to True Fans, bg2 were simply a pale reflection of bg, and an insult to the bg franchise to boot. we suspect that more than a few reviewers (and posters) gots same issues with nwn2 that many haters had with bg2. they is not reasonable or rational, but these folks is real familiar to Gromnir. can't reason with the True Fan... whether you be talking 'bout bg or fallout or nwn. btw, we ain't saying that nwn2 improves nwn to same degree that bg2 improved nwn... 'cause it don't. there is a kinda unfinished quality 'bout nwn2 that were not present with bg2. regardless, nwn2 does clearly improve 'pon nwn and even the suggestion o' that seems to offend some persons. 3) oblivion envy oblivion were popular. reviewers KNOW that oblivion were popular. some reviewers seems determined to compare & contrast oblivion and nwn2. Gromnir fully concedes that bushes and shrubs look much nicer in oblivion than in nwn2. that being said, there really weren't all that much diversity as far as oblivion environments were concerned... every dungeon had a terrible sameness 'bout 'em that only seemed to add to general monotony of the game. and lets us be honest, most of the "quests" in oblivion were fed-ex, and the ones that weren't were pretty uninspired... maybe that is 'cause they secretly hired tim cain to does the dialogue and level design work. oh, and don't even get us started on the bass ackwards rules system that rewarded folks for choosing skills they rarely used as their main skills. in any event, we not see many ways in which oblivion compares favorably to nwn2... other than size of gameplaying world. but reviewers sees different. reviewers sees oblivion as current benchmark... which is actually a pretty safe thing to be doing. by oblivion's standard nwn2 is smaller and has less pretty trees. open game world and non-d&d seems to be "in" at the moment. *shrug* dunno. we not think nwn2 deserves 9/10, but it sure as hell is better than a 6/10... and more important, many of the reasons being given for murdering nwn2 in reviews is qualities that seems to be acceptable or overlooked in any number o' other similar games. it simply seems to Gromnir that some reviewers is working real hard to give nwn2 a bad review. end repost we has seen reviews at sci-fi.com and 1-up that seemed to really be trying hard to dislike nwn2... and it ain't that hard to find reasons to dislike. is there far too few tangential side-quests in nwn2? yeah. hell yeah. you bet your arse that nwn2 is a lot more "linear" than Gromnir would like. obsidian were well on its way to replicating a tim cain organizational nightmare... almost had nwn2 become toee2. josh sawyer were brought in to fix nwn2 less than 6 months ago, and while he probaly did his bestest, there just weren't 'nuff time and resources to keep from having to cut out stuff that weren't essential. we gots a streamlined nwn2... 'least compared to game envisioned earlier this year. they got more content back in game 'cause of extended release date, but this is still a largely stripped down release... and there ain't no excuse for that. some of the joinable npcs also seemed to have needed a little more oven time before they got served for public consumption. many of the joinables appeared to have more to say, but never actually did so. too bad. this game also gots a host of technical and gameplay issues that drives us nuts. nwn2 inventory management were no doubt designed by some cold war era soviet burecrat... make as tedious, time consuming, and frustrating as possible were the goal? cogratufreakinglations to obsidian. also, while we get that auto-ressurect were deemed necessary for plot advancement, it seriously detracts from the otherwise huge improvement in tactical sophistication that we gots 'tween nwn and nwn2. (example: first time we fights a nwn2 dragon we got slaughtered... badly. second time we won, but only 1 party member survived, which in previous games woulda' pretty much demanded a reload, 'less we were lucky 'nuff to have the cleric be the survivor.) oh, and crafting w/o cost is as broken as were similar crafting in kotor2... when every party member can be armed with +3 (or better) adamantine flaming or shocking weapons by time you hit 12th level in a d&d game, then something is wrong. book o' instructions for making holy weapons we found 'round level 15... at which point it woulda' been pointless to continue game if we had bothered to use. but the stuff we mentions above is not the kinda stuff we sees as reasoning for killing nwn2 in reviews. we sees bugginess mentioned and we sees comparisons to oblivion. heck, we seen one reviewer who slammed nwn2 for story had seemed okie dokie with oblivion story-telling. huh? did oblivion have more tangential sidequest stuff than did nwn2? sure. nwn had more tangential side-quests too... makes people use the "non-linear" bs. but what folks seems to forget is just how boring the critical path were in nwn and oblivion. and whereas nwn at least had charwood and a couple other good tangential sidequests, oblivion were almost complete terrible. so if nwn2 gets killed for lack of sidequests, shouldn't oblivion and nwn have been judged even more harsh 'cause they screwed up the Critical Path? no? compelling characters? name one from oblivion. we can recall patrick stewart and that boromir guy from oblivion... and neither one of them is ever gonna make a Best CRPG NPC list any time soon. the success of oblivion has maybe proved josh right... maybe story is not all that important for a crpg... maybe compelling characters is secondary to providing a big world and loads of loot, but Gromnir not think character development is such a tertiary issue. oblivion woulda' been a far better game if the characters had been written better... nwn would have been better too. nwn2, for all its faults were, for the most part, wee better written than nwn or oblivion. ... slam nwn2 if you wish. there is 'nuff legit reasons to do so, but we wonders why on earth these objective and fair reviewers didn't destroy je for linearity or childishly easy combats... or oblivion for terrible story. HA! Good Fun!

nwn2 has many problems. is more than a few technical issues. the inventory systsem is a nightmare. auto-resurrection kotors/nerfs combat. play different class or race seems to not have much impact on game. some of the npcs has very little to contribute as far as dialogues is concerned. etc. nevertheless, we is surprised at just how terrible some of the reviews is. 1) we suspect that more than a few reviewers gots some misplaced guilt 'bout nwn. anybody recall the nwn reviews? most was ridiculously good. we enjoyed nwn and we saw loads of potential, but the reviews from gamespot and cgw and other sources were a bit too good. we suspect that more than a few of those reviewers who made arses of selves with their 9/10 reviews is looking for a little misplaced payback this time 'round. "nobody is going to be able to to accuse me of being soft on NWN2, that is for damn sure." 2) the bg effect strikes again bg had a cliche story with a hole-punch bad guy (if vol weren't surprised by Ultimate Bad Guy for nwn2, then we wonders what level of contempt he had for sarevok.) the quests were almost all fed-ex, and the npcs added little more than a catchphrase and a stat sheet. most of those maps peoples loved to "explore" (HA!) had little actual game content on 'em save for a laughably shallow quest and maybe a hobgoblin ambush or two. nevertheless, bg were the first playable d&d game for quite some time, and peoples were so damned starved for crpgs just then... and for those looking for a little more rpg than were available in diablo, bg were a nice change. regardless, bg were a seriously flawed game that somehow managed to becomes embraced by fans in spite of shortcomings. bg2 comes out and improves on bg in almost every way imagined. sure, bg2 had problems, but it were a damned sight better than bg. 'course reality not match recollection of the True Fan. the hardcore bg fan somehow saw everything that were good 'bout bg w/o noticing flaws. to True Fans, bg2 were simply a pale reflection of bg, and an insult to the bg franchise to boot. we suspect that more than a few reviewers (and posters) gots same issues with nwn2 that many haters had with bg2. they is not reasonable or rational, but these folks is real familiar to Gromnir. can't reason with the True Fan... whether you be talking 'bout bg or fallout or nwn. btw, we ain't saying that nwn2 improves nwn to same degree that bg2 improved nwn... 'cause it don't. there is a kinda unfinished quality 'bout nwn2 that were not present with bg2. regardless, nwn2 does clearly improve 'pon nwn and even the suggestion o' that seems to offend some persons. 3) oblivion envy oblivion were popular. reviewers KNOW that oblivion were popular. some reviewers seems determined to compare & contrast oblivion and nwn2. Gromnir fully concedes that bushes and shrubs look much nicer in oblivion than in nwn2. that being said, there really weren't all that much diversity as far as oblivion environments were concerned... every dungeon had a terrible sameness 'bout 'em that only seemed to add to general monotony of the game. and lets us be honest, most of the "quests" in oblivion were fed-ex, and the ones that weren't were pretty uninspired... maybe that is 'cause they secretly hired tim cain to does the dialogue and level design work. oh, and don't even get us started on the bass ackwards rules system that rewarded folks for choosing skills they rarely used as their main skills. in any event, we not see many ways in which oblivion compares favorably to nwn2... other than size of gameplaying world. but reviewers sees different. reviewers sees oblivion as current benchmark... which is actually a pretty safe thing to be doing. by oblivion's standard nwn2 is smaller and has less pretty trees. open game world and non-d&d seems to be "in" at the moment. *shrug* dunno. we not think nwn2 deserves 9/10, but it sure as hell is better than a 6/10... and more important, many of the reasons being given for murdering nwn2 in reviews is qualities that seems to be acceptable or overlooked in any number o' other similar games. it simply seems to Gromnir that some reviewers is working real hard to give nwn2 a bad review. HA! Good Fun!

*chuckle* so for alan exception to be an actual exception to Gromnir general rule, you gotta have small number of folks and voice over analogous to roger wilco? you is working pretty hard here... and strategy games ain't really analogous to nwn d&d combats. again, interface gotta work for other than just alan situations. radial menu is terribly slow and unwieldy for virtually all mp situations (feel better?) so interface can't simply be designed for alan and vol. try not to lose sight of forest for some tree. HA! Good Fun!

your point? again, the interface gotta work for everybody, and that includes pws and mp of more than 3 persons not named alan. "It's not all that uncommon either. The Paradox games are real time, and they involve a multiplayer that allows pause" am guessing that we ain't talking 'bout d&d style combat, eh? in any event, as we ain't ever played the games you is talking 'bout, we cannot say. am trying to imagine everquest or wow with pause... or one of those shooter games. is a pretty damn unwieldy notion in small groups much less in larger ones. HA! Good Fun!

if you say so. we never been in a group where it worked. the more people you get and the more involved combats is, the more confusing and distracting the pause function becomes... and please try to imagine pws with more than a dozen folks on a server, not necessary in same location. interface gotta work for everybody. btw, http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...50entry713150 looks like the problem ain't solely a Gromnir issue, eh? HA! Good Fun!

*chuckle* common sense and reason is considered wacky by vol? go figure. HA! Good Fun!

sorry vol, but it doesn't work... not with 6 or even 4 folks all able to stop game on a whim. makes us wonder if you ever played mp nwn. HA! Good Fun!

is not a matter of whether or not pause is possible in mp. no pw we plays on, nor any legit mp session has pausing. 6 different people (or dozens for pws) all able to initiate pause? idiotic. pause is not practical for mp. HA! Good Fun!

the more homogeneous your culture/society is, the easier it is to have democracy work smooth. HA! Good Fun!

you can't pause in mp. 'course, we not care how slick the reviewer thought the radial were for nwn, in mp you is using hotkeys and quickslots, not radial. HA! Good Fun!

"Blizzard games are visually appealing as well, and however "fantastic" the content, it never leaves the arena of what a person can relate to in terms of reality within the genre of fantasy." but lack o' underwear and arms and armour that is less ludicrous than typical stuff from wow shatters your fuzzy realism threshold? ... okie dokie. HA! Good Fun!

"You know what I mean, within this world or any RPG/Action game there needs to be some kind of semblence of reality (sans the spells or magical feats). That's why they strive for because that's why the gamer relates." pretty much every blizzard game exists as a stark denial of your position. reality and realism in blizzard games is stretched to amazing extremes w/o seeming to shatter the Average Gamer's ability to enjoy the game and game world. blizzard not strive for realism. wotc not strive for realism. lucas arts not strive for realism. is game internally coherent... is it rational within the context of the rules the world's creators put forth? THAT is a legit concern for developers, but you cannot simply dismiss spells and magic but get all torqued by underwear. is not realism that matters, but we suspect you just won't get that. HA! Good Fun!

how is Gromnir afraid of skin? we not particualar mind either way if avatars is naked w/o armour or not. is not the skin that bothers us but rather your tenacious defense of a 50 list that gots maybe 5 legit issues. YOU made skin an issue among 50, but you not seem to be able to take a stand on why you think it should be an issue. first it were realism. now... now it seems that it is something else. additionaly, it should be obvious by now that this is not a developer issue, but rather a wotc issue... so we not understand why you would continue to rail when not only has your realism issue re underwear has been pretty much destroyed, but given fact that it has been explained to you a half dozen or more times now that obsidian has little say-so in regards skin issues. "My interpretation of realism is realized and fufilled to my satisfaction in NWN1, but not in NWN2, for many reasons beyond the underwear issue." well then you is gonna have to do a much better job of explaining your concerns 'cause as we can all see by now, underwear not bolster realism, and arms and armour in nwn were as stylized and fantastical (aribeth's armour) as anything in nwn2. "realism" as a serious issue in a fantasy crpg is having a somewhat dubious foundation for legitimate gripeage, but we would be willing to at least consider if you were at least a little more competent insofar as explaining how nwn1 were more realistic than nwn2. underwear? underwear ain't helping your cause. again, we got no doubt that you has some legit concerns, but you put together in to a hyperbole laden list and it makes all your concerns seem that much less valid. Gromnir himself already made a post where we expressed some concerns (minor and major) 'bout nwn2, so we ain't adverse to scorching nwn2 or the developers o' said game, but if you wants your concerns to be taken serious we tends to think you is going 'bout it all wrong. is not skin that bothers Gromnir, but rather the hamfisted manner in which you attempts to gets your concerns addressed. HA! Good Fun!

btw, we understand that to get list to 50 rift had to conjure up some pretty ridiculous stuff. we wish that he/she woulda' simply stuck with serious concerns rather than using hyperbole. HA! Good Fun!

josh, can you please add a full range of hose accesories to nwn2. our immersion is destroyed without gambaison and hose options. and while you is at it, bring back aribeth armour. on second thought, just get practiced spellcaster and augment summoning/healing feats into game and forget 'bout silly minutae like adding underwear. in any event, rift already gots reason why skin is not in with wotc as far as crpgs is concerned, so we cannot figure out why this line o' nonsense continues. "And ultimately far more immersive." is far more immersive because it is unrealistic or because it is more fantastical? we can't keep up with you on this issue. we get that you like naked better. fine. even when you has been told why your demand is iimpossible, and you has been confronted with the reality that your demand is actually less realistic than the nwn2 status quo, you still contend that this is a reason that nwn1 is better than nwn2? ... okie dokie. HA! Good Fun!

lol ..where did I even say I wanted nudity or "jiggly"? That's not me, and you misperceived my statements. I was referring to the basic underwear you see in NWN1 when you remove your armor. It's realistic to me, that's all. I'd like to know I have a body underneath my armor. You don;t have to be Artifical Girl 2 explicitness and porno ethics to show a basic model of the body clothed with underwear. I don't know if you hail from the bible belt areas or something but it's just normal to me to be able to see the models of a body when optioned to change armor in any RPG, I'm used to it as are others making the same complaint. Even family games like Sims are able to show this. Understand that there are more adults playing PC games than console. And even Console games walk that line more than NWN1 which reveals more than NWN2. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> you ain't asking for real. under heavier armour you typically has a layer of padding worn in addition to clothing, and we cannot thinks of any metalic armour we would ever want to consider wear without clothing beneath. what you want is unrealistic... and we suspect more voyeristic motives in any event. HA! Good Fun! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Was the Bioware team being "voyeuristic" in showing underweared models? I seriously doubt that was their motive. Mine is the same. Youa re correct in thaat underneath full plate someone would be expected to wear a padded cloth suit. Though I doubt there is any precedent for putting a padded full suit underneath a robe, light armor or 0 base armor clothing. In any case we're talking about fantasy where many here seemed to shoot down the notion that realism applied to armor anyways (I disagree int he grounds that they wouldn't be please seeing blue tights and a red cape ont heir NWN characters, so Medieval is referenced). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> will you make up your mind? you want realism or fantasy? and yeah, under robes, especially in a northern climate, we would expect full clothing to be worn. neverwinter ain't a city on the med you know. oh, and leather armour is not as supple as those leather pants you no doubt got in your jiggly drawer. leather armour is not worn next to skin neither. all nwn2 avatars would have to be redrawn with some serious chafe marks/wounds to get your kinda realism. HA! Good Fun!

LOLZ You would be a walking freezer in the cold having that metal touch your skin. Plus the weight of it would dig into you shoulders cutting into you. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> not only that, keeps in mind that elastic were invented relatively recent. most underwear in the middle ages were pretty bulky and tended to cover from neck to toe anyways. no elastic socks. no elastic waistbands. etc. knight is gonna wear a gambaison to boot. not real to wear less. HA! Good Fun!

lol ..where did I even say I wanted nudity or "jiggly"? That's not me, and you misperceived my statements. I was referring to the basic underwear you see in NWN1 when you remove your armor. It's realistic to me, that's all. I'd like to know I have a body underneath my armor. You don;t have to be Artifical Girl 2 explicitness and porno ethics to show a basic model of the body clothed with underwear. I don't know if you hail from the bible belt areas or something but it's just normal to me to be able to see the models of a body when optioned to change armor in any RPG, I'm used to it as are others making the same complaint. Even family games like Sims are able to show this. Understand that there are more adults playing PC games than console. And even Console games walk that line more than NWN1 which reveals more than NWN2. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> you ain't asking for real. under heavier armour you typically has a layer of padding worn in addition to clothing, and we cannot thinks of any metalic armour we would ever want to consider wear without clothing beneath. what you want is unrealistic... and we suspect more voyeristic motives in any event. HA! Good Fun!

anybody the least familiar with d&d crpgs should know that wotc has a strange pov concerning adult themes. the whole mirrored mask encounter in nwn2 were a nod to that strange history. is innumerbale examples of prostitution, drug use, slavery, and the non-specific jiggly that rift seems enamored with, but crpgs since nwn has been different. one popular explanation is 'possedley that some hasbro big wig sees his pre-teen son playing nwn and realizes that game has a BROTHEL in it. forebear. in any event, since that time developers has had much tighter restrictions on adult content in games than wotc seems to demand of print material. troika, being slow learners, did not thinks that new wotc policy regarding adult content in games applied to them. fools. so they has to remove their brothel late in development when wotc puts kibosh on it and other stuff in toee. when black isle were making bg 3 there were numerous developer complaints, and bioware, even though inexplicably they seemed to have been afforded more freedom to do adult content than other developers, also recognized that d&d crpgs woulds have to become more child safe in future. this is well tilled soil. rift is just getting to the party late. HA! Good Fun! ps jiggly is not inherent better than pg rated material. am not sure why some people seems to assume that kinda subjectivity into the equation. am reminded of how carrie fisher had to have her breasts strapped down in star wars because lucas didn't want story to be 'bout sex. is amusing that maybe worst of the three original films were the only one having jiggly. jiggly = better? hardly.

rift has a point: st said that he is "able" to discuss w/o name calling and trolling, so when he is calling a fellow poster a blob who is ashamed of self that ain't REALLY hypocritical 'cause he never actually claimed that he were above name callings. ... or rift honestly didn't get it. want aribeth jiggly AND authentic. *chuckle* you know how you can tell difference 'tween a man and a woman in plate or chain or scale with full helm? ... no, serious... is an honest question. we has seen some of those recreation society gatherings and when a woman dons plate or chain she not got a noticeable figure in such garb. when they takes off such stuff they usually got a layer of padding underneath, and they always got clothes. HA! Good Fun!

we not play world of warcraft, but we did play most of the warcraft and diablo games. same world, right? we not recall any armour or weapon in those games that looked to have a historical analog to real world. even so, those games is 'bout as popular as you can be in their given genres. seems likes developers abandoning historical accuracy in favor of stylized fantasy were a pretty darn good move for blizzard, and we not think they lose sleep over the infinte small fraction of people that complains that giant warhammers and plate armour that would weigh down a moose much less a human being, destroys "immersiveness." btw, we ain't yet seen anybody that did a goods job of defining what is immersive for fans of crpgs as a group so that a crpg developer coulds actually implement. regardless, much as with trolls having to look like terrible monster manual entry, it is sounding as if arms and armours is also having wotc final say-so... ain't like obsidian coulda' done different anyhow. "Wow, a lot of you guys are pretty brave arguing with Soultheif like that. Didn't you know that he could bench press you?" the average person on this board weighs some considerable amount less than 200lbs. is hardly impressive or daunting to see somebody bench 200lbs. anything less than three plates a side is not even worth notice, and +4 is being required to give Gromnir pause. HA! Good Fun!