Gromnir

agreed. they could lose publisher money likes nobody else. and no, that weren't only their fault... gotta wonder 'bout the publishers that kept giving 'em money to be pi$$ing away. HA! Good Fun!

"Never stated that, just that some folks are not business minded, and those that are, have weaknesses in other places." HA! do you even read what you write? the weakness you allude to were creativity.... and that is silly. oh and if you feels personally insulted 'cause we called you a fool, then so be it. some of your claims, which you backpedal from and hedge quite a bit, seems more than a little foolish. in any event, 'least we gots everybody on same page now: tim and co. were crappy at the business side of the business of making games. HA! Good Fun!

also, am still finding it amusing that NatS seem to think that any person with some buisiness sense has gotta be lacking in creativity.... but that is a whole different tangent. HA! Good Fun!

"btw, As abvove, I actually like 2 out of 3 Troika games. But, you'd have to be absolutely blind to honestly believe that Troika is the top level of game development." tim were a top level jackass. shoulda' been obvious to him after failure #1 that he needed somebody to come in and organize his projects, but he were either too arrogant or too stoopid to realize that he/troika needed help. 3 failures? who the hell gets an opportunity to make 3 major failures in a row? how much money and manhours did he pi$$ away 'cause he never figured out that it weren't the evil publishers that were the problem? is not that tim gets less credit than he deserves... truth is that he is treated far too generous by fans and media and industry. stoopidity or arrogance? am not sure which were timmy's problem, but either way he were a top level yutz. "Don't be a fool, my point is simple, you cannot really say how good you may be at something until you actually give it a shot. My point as simple as I can make it for you Grommy, TIM CAIN != BIZ GENIUS, TIM CAIN == CODER. Now do you reckon those three guys knew they were gunna make huge mistakes on the business side?" only fool we see is you and timmy. how could tim have known that he might need business help running a business? *chuckle* heck, after the first couple of failures even the most dim bulb woulda' learned from mistakes. HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for clearing that up. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> actually, your question reaffirms our point. if Gromnir, who gots 0 experience in industry, is fully aware of pressures related to making a living working in an industry so inextricably beholden to THE QUARTERLY REPORT, then how much less of an excuse does timmy have for being so oblivious and naive? HA! Good Fun! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The difference here was that Tim and Co, hadn't had the experience before in that area of the industry, but gave it a shot anyway, They're obviously not very good at running a studio, that does not mean that the games they created should be viewed as lesser simply because the company no longer exists. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> troika games is judged solely on their merits.... which is a good thing. as we noted earlier, troika games should not be judged different simply cause some fanbois thought tim were bold nuff to dream big. apologists making excuses for troika failures and finding quality in toika games that they did not have simply cause they like that tim were trying to dream the impossible dream... bah. regardless, your apples and oranges comment is exemplary of tim-level obliviousness. to makes games in the Game Industry you is gonna need business-minded and managment trained folks to complete jobs in a timely and cost-efficient manner. every succesful game developer has such people... like josh. he was the guy that obsidian brought in to fix development organizational problems with nwn2. we spose that means that byNatS reasoning that must means that josh gots the creativity o sea kelp, right? HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for clearing that up. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> actually, your question reaffirms our point. if Gromnir, who gots 0 experience in industry, is fully aware of pressures related to making a living working in an industry so inextricably beholden to THE QUARTERLY REPORT, then how much less of an excuse does timmy have for being so oblivious and naive? HA! Good Fun!

our toaster wants the franchise? gives it a sledgehammer 'stead. the day our pc or laptop starts demanding equal rights is the day we go all psycho ted kaczynski style and lives in some shack out in woods and plans the end o' civilization. HA! Good Fun!

bull. load of bull. making games has always been 'bout making money. furthermore, there ain't nothing 'bout the present model that prevents a developer likes troika from making good games. for chrissakes people, is not like 10 years ago the govt. stopped giving out grants to make games... is not like publishers sudden realized that they were in business to makes money for investors/shareholders. draw some sorta conclusions 'bout industry 'cause of failure of one developer? bah. most simple explanation for troika inability to makes a good game in spite of 3 attempts were that they simply weren't a competent developer... but for some reason peoples avoids simple answer in favor of wacky notions 'bout dying art 'n such. troika failed. come up with whatever reasons you want to explain, but if troika can't stay in business, then they cannot make games, good or bad. perhaps timmy tells self that reason troika failed is 'cause he were trying to make good games in a world that just wouldn't let him, but that is bull, and anybody that belies such nonsense is full of it too. HA! Good Fun! ps the fact that troika failed is a good thing. all the competent developers from troika who were stuck making crappy games 'cause troika were bad at business, has now found jobs at places likes relic and obsidian and bioware... places where their talents can be utilized to makes games that will actually gets played. congrats... the system works.

They were ambitious, didn't always implement their ideas very well, and the games suffered from this. But you're forgetting that publishers have the final say about a game. Temple of Elemental Evil was sucking on Atari's financial tit and apparently causing some problems since the more you delay a game the more the publisher suffers with this, but as a publisher Atari knew full well the state of the game. Yet they chose to release it. While I'm not excusing Troika for their mistakes - which were rampant - the decision to ship unpolished games was not theirs. It sure wasn't Obsidian's decision to ship The Sith Lords in such a dire state, either. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the sith lords were comprable to toee? maybe not best example. Gromnir player sith lords on xbox and had no serious game-killing bugs. as game were an xbox title we did not have to worry 'bout slowdowns that crippled gameplay for 1/3 of game, and while it were obvious that material had been cut from sith, it were done so in a manner that were far less clumsy and unprofessional than were manner in which toee material were cut. sith's "dire state" maybe needs more clarifying, 'cause the only aspect of sith that seemed truly terrible were the conclusion... and that crappy resolution were pretty much the result of terrible obsidian craftsmanship. woe is troika. for us to fall for troika sob story we gotta believe that troika got bullied 'round by publishers who seemingly wanted nothing more than to kill troika. 'course we not seems to be given some motivation from publishers as to why they would wanna hamstring troika. publishers lose money if a troika development fails, no? atari, in the case o' toee were 'tween a rock and a hard place. troika had already sabotaged the possibility o' working with atari in future by once again casting blame at feet of yet another publisher, so atari gotta ask self if giving more money to troika to make game playable were worth costs. like it or not, publishers exist in a Quarterly Report world. atari had to know that d&d name gave some guranteed sales, which if game were released as-is would generate some positive numbers for the quarterly report... or they coulds roll dice and hope that a disgruntled developer would manage to fix toee 'nuff with additional atari money so as to make up for the hit atari would take when toee showed up on yet another quarterly report as having provided no return. miss end of quarter and hope that a developer that has shown a certain 'mount of ineptitude woulds be able to make toee a winner. or cut your losses and release game w/o throwing anymore money down the toee well. atari has to take blame, but they were screwed no matter what they did. what they really shoulds take blame for is hooking up with timmy and co in first place. shoulda' called folks at sierra and interplay and done a little better research. these publishers, who we must needs to believe were all spiteful fools to believes the Troika-Got-Screwed sob story, has managed to makes numerous other games with other developers. why did publishers hate troika so much? maybe publishers IS all faceless and evil tyrants, but if that is case then all developers gotta deal with same problems... and more than a few developers has thrived in spite of the destructive impulses and sinister machinations o' game publishers. ... iwd. whenever peoples complain 'bout how troika got screwed by atari as they developed toee we recalls iwd. iwd were developed by a group o' relatively inexperienced individuals in a very short period o' time. from day 1 it were understood that goal were to be getting iwd released before bg2 and before diablo 2. were gonna be a low cost and quick development. if the largely inexperienced iwd team could put together a game like iwd in a short period o' time, then given that timmy and co. were such genius developers, then why could they not match bis' feat? being a game developer is a tough biz. publishers IS more focused on quarter reports than on game developer reputation, but that is something that even Gromnir, an individula with 0 experience in the industry, is fully aware of... so how come timmy not seem to know? publishers expect results and they not like having developers throw 'em under the bus halfway through development. again, Gromnir may not be a expert on game publishsing, but we knows such obvious stuff. troika games were at their best before real development started. timmy would make all kinds o' promises 'bout kewl new features and fans would becomes enthusiastic...fans would buy into the game when it were little more than a notion and some concept art. then it would turn out that timmy couldn't implement his notions in a timely and cost-efficient manner. timmy would blame publishers, and troika fans who loved fo and the kewl features timmy were promising, would agrees that publishers musta' been to blame. is funny. the codexians complain 'bout how hype-driven the industry is, but has there ever been a developer who managed to gets such a free ride as did troika? a handful o' guys who were partial responsible for a moderate succesful crpg were able parlay their reputaion and goodwill into not just one, but THREE opportunities to makes a crpg. each opportunity they gots ended same way... ended with a game that were far more impressive as a previewed title than as anctual gameplaying experience... ended with an unhappy publisher who felt that they had been screwed by timmy. nevertheless, fans AND publishers kept giving timmy another chance to replicate the moderate success of fo. and somehow, in spite of fact that timmy never did manage to release a good game, some folks kept buying his games and his line. is funny... really. timmy were a snakeoil salesman w/o peer... the sad part were that we thinks timmy never realized that he were selling snake oil. HA! Good Fun!

if you plays tob with the boss fights enhancements that returned such encounters to original designed difficulty, you can fights a pretty tough battle with multiple dragons... 'course you is gonna be 'round level 25 or 30 at the time o' fight. Gromnir actually had to reload the demogorgon and dragon boss battles a few times 'fore we beat 'em. bg2 dragons were kinda fun battles, but the right combinations of sequenced sr lowering spells 'long with greater malison and dooms were meaning that a few castings o' chromatic orb would fell almost any dragon... which seemed kinda cheap. nevertheless, Gromnir were a little sad after killing full-powered klauth in 'bout 5 seconds in nwn.... but 3.0 harm were a serious busted spell. HA! Good Fun!

anybody notice that they ain't getting weapon finesse with rapiers in 1.03? we puts rapier in neeshka hands and not seems to get dex bonus. am not yet sure if it is a neeshka problem or a rapier problem or some other problem... gotta test a little further. HA! Good Fun!

really? Gromnir got tunic w/o no levels... we simply accepted knighthood. HA! Good Fun!

well, if one doesn't offer their definition of something, in this case linearity, then we have no common agreement over what we are discussing. It's not that a defintion is "right" that makes it important; it's that it is "known". More side-quests is one way of making a game less linear. I agree. Another way would be to have an extremely robust skill system that lets you create a wide variety of pcs, and which then changes your gaming experience. There are many ways to decrease the linearity of a game. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> bah. people rgue over the definition and forget what it is they is trying to accomplish. argue over linear v. non-linear. argue over what is/isn't a rpg. example: please note that many people is gonna disagree with your notion that "robust" skillz system creates any kind of non-linearity. rubbish. tell developers what features you wants and why... argue the definition that nobodys agrees 'pon is pointless. HA! Good Fun!

tell us what your definition not make a lick o' difference... as almost everybody else gots a different notion. am not sure how many times we seen peoples claim that fo and ps:t were more non-linear 'cause of multiple possible endings. some people says nwn were non-linear... a person earlier in this thread argued that kotor2 were non-linear. conversely, many peoples has argued that those games is very linear. the only thing that Gromnir can say with any certainty 'bout linearity is that based on our experiences of following these boards and crpgs for a long time, complaints 'bout linearity of a game decrease if you gots loads of optional and tangential side quests. HA! Good Fun!

played 3 crpgs that were released new this year: g3 oblivion nwn2 is not tough to pick a winner from that bunch. oblivion were winner... hands down... 'long as we were solely voting on which game had best looking flora. nwn2 is only game on the list we would play a second time. 'nuff said. HA! Good Fun!

In the original Fallout, you have to get the water chip and go to deal with the Master. Actually, you don't even have to do the second part if you want to join the Master's army. Considering the enormous amount of content you can skip or do in any order, it's a very big exception to what you suggested. Since it's the topic of the thread, I think it's worth noting. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> fo gets the cult following thing. is our opinion that it wouldn't do so well today. the critical path story were kinda flat and never got much development, and the favorite character from the game were a dog who had 0 lines o' genuine dialogue. all those folks that complain 'bouts lame story/writing rarely takes aim at fo... but they could. fo writing were not great, and critical path story were little more than a transparent raison d'etre to play game. the fo critical path were pretty linear... is just that there were very few critical path plot encounters... which is a strength as much as a weakness. is pretty damn tough to develop a compelling critical path story if you only got a couple o' important scenes. on positive side, you gots that feel o' non-linearity... people can does all those side-quests when and how they wish. regardless, have multiple final choices not makes more or less non-linear. end choices is avoiding any need to deal with bifurcation, so you can have as many of those as you wish and they can't possibly break story... 'course as chris A has such a problem with game/story endings, maybe he wanna go back to the shotgun spread o' possible conclusions... 'least that way he got some excuse as to why none of 'em is particularly fulfilling. fo were 'bout being able to do tangential and optional side-quests (side-quests which were themselves pretty linear,) which created the illusion o' non-linearity. *shrug* ultimately we think there can be a balance... has a nicely developed critical path that is ultimately gonna needs be pretty linear AND has loads of tangential and optional side-quests that makes people feels like they "explored" and gots "non-linear" gameplay. is in the tangential and optional side quest where you can allows for meaningful choices, 'cause such choices won't impact critical path. making such a game is simply a matter of time and expense and wherewithal of developers. HA! Good Fun!

"Obsidian did make a non-linear game. Kotor 2, you can do the planets in any order. That's what non-linear means, that the quest progression does not have a set order. That if you drew a diagram of it, it wouldn't be just a line. NWN2 had two parts that I explicitly recall being non-linear." *chuckle* go over to the rpgcodex boards and make this same post into a new thread... see how long it takes you to get the vol tag. please note that when nwn were first released there were considerable complaints that those games were too linear. am hating the "non-linear" nonsense, 'cause almost every poster means something different when they use term... and being convinced that your definintion is right not change fact that 75% o' peoples disagree with you. btw, chris A is still writing likes a young writer... too often his characters talks like they gots their dialogues from a thousand forgotten fortune cookies... too much introspection and navel gazing and cheap philosophy. the Philosophy for Dummies approach may have worked better in ps:t 'cause of the setting, but it not work quite so well in subsequent games. oh, and the endings for kotor 2 and nwn2 were somewheres between forgettable and terrible. chris A made ravel. too bad he ain't managed to come close to doing another character with same heart. kreia? so much potential ruined by sloppy execution. still, we liked kreia for the most part. HA! Good Fun!

I had Qara buff up my PC before the battle and then used Word of Changing right after talking to LoH. Her Knockdowns simply bounced of my Horned Devil's 32 STR and the 5hp/round regeneration pretty much negated any damage she managed to do. Still, it took me a long time time to defeat her because she seemed to have several uses of Lay on Hands for some reason and thus kept healing herself to full health over and over again. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So the horned devil deal works? When I tried that spell with Ammon Jerro, it didn't work terribly well for him. I was thinking of investing in the negative energy eldritch blast that drains levels, but it wouldn't work against undead, and LoH might have immunity. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> am gonna assume that you gots an adjusted umd of 'round 30+. with a high charisma there ain't no reason for a warlock of 17th level not to have umd in the range o' 30+... and don't forget to always has somebody cast greater heroism on you before encounters. umd lets you use scrolls and wands and pretty much any item in game... save for some weapons and armours that you not got necessary proficiency with. am trying to imagine what sorta chance loh would have 'gaimst a warlock who cast premonition/displacement/mirror image/tenser's transformation/battle tide/ tortise shell/nature's avatar/storm avatar and elemental swarm on self... maybe cast sanctuary a couple times if you really need to. is Gromnir's opnion that deceive item and skill focus umd is best feats for warlock to be taking, 'cause umd is most effective combat skill in game. need big umd to cast appropriate scrolls, and warlocks is the characters most likely to manage as they gots high charisma and umd feats. first time through it were seeming like ammon jerro were a serious wuss, until we noticed his umd. hooked him up with a charisma boosting item and made sure to have sand cast greater heroism on him, and with our saved and made scrolls in addition to wands and rods and staves n' such, ammon jerro becames a serious force. 'course, if you ignored umd, then you can ignore our post. HA! Good Fun!

Just a quick note on that point. Lorne has an amulet of true seeing or something that allows him to see invisible, so hiding with invisibility won't work. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> incorrect. SPOILER the amulet o' truth is a gift from lord naboob... or whatever his name is. perhaps lorne can see invisible, but sanctuary works 'gainst him very well indeed. HA! Good Fun!

with able learner, cross class skills = 1point per level. am not caring how smarty your wizard is, those cross-class skills get pretty costly w/o able learner feat. 1 level of rogue not change fact that each time you level as a mage all of those thiefy skills is cross-class. 10th level mage with okie dokie intel can have 13 ranks in umd, tumble, spellcraft, concentration and a couple other skills too. HA! Good Fun!

SPOILERS a mage with a couple invisibility spells memorized shouldn't have too much trouble w/lorne. memorize grease a number o' times as well... web ain't bad neither. should have that cloak that makes you immune to web, right? spam him with webs and greases and hit him with a bunch o' damage spells. he gets too close, then turn invisible... don't forget that you can makes scrolls... and as per our earlier suggestion in thread, qara makes a wonderful crafter of weapons, wondrous items, and wands. get yourself a wand 'o invisibility and a wand o' displacement and maybe a wand o' elemental shield too. btw, 1 level o' rogue is back to being almost a no-brainer for nwn2... likes it were when 3.0 first came off the press. obsidian gives all races access to able learner, so a wizard with high intelligence shoulds be able to gets tumble and umd and thiefy skills... as well as spellcraft and concentration. or you can go social route and max bluff/diplomacy/intimidate/taunt. a 1/X rogue/wizard strongheart hafling or human is good at everything... and the ability to use wands of sanctuary makes fights like the lorne battle relative easy even on highest difficulty setting. that being said, with lorne doing 200% damage, 1 hit and your wizard is gonna be dead. still gotta be careful. HA! Good Fun!

if fo were made today, it would not be so well received. when dogmeat is the "character" peoples like most, then you got some writing issues. fo setting were nice, and special were, if not better than other rules systems, at least it were different. wander 'round and do whatever you want were kinda fun, right up 'til point where game sudden ends and you realize that there were a hidden timer running. setting might actually have been fo's best feature... and am not sure if any major publisher would be willing to do fo kinda stuff today. can't sell your game in germany if in-game violence to children is possible. ma rating is avoided likes plague by many publishers, in spite of success of games like gta. sell a violent and adult-themed crpg is possibly getting tougher, not easier... but josh might have a better notion on that point as we is simply guessing. fo were a very nice game, but just as bg gets benefit of being released at the right moment in time, and having benefit o' rosy memories to erase numerous flaws, fo got similar help. HA! Good Fun!

Joinable NPCs shouldn't be critical to quests if you want to push for open gameplay (as I do). And if people only feel that choices that affect The One True Plot can be "real" choices, there aren't really any games that fit the mold, including Fallout. In Fallout you could defeat the Master in a few different ways or you could "end early" by getting dipped. People seem to enjoy the amount of choice in the Fallout games despite the limited number of main plot end states, so I'm not worried about it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> as to joinables, that is why we thinks they is so important... and have said so in past. joinables can be with you for entire game, and THEIR story/quest can be almost complete tangential. sure, can still contribute to critical path quest, but it can takes full 40-60 hours of gameplay to develop joinable character and however you ends up choosing to do the joinable quest need not break the critical path. the tangential and optional side quests is where you can make the choices in a game, 'cause those choices not affect the critical path. save village from warlord? sell-out village to warlord. steal warlord's stuff and get villagers to hire you for protection, then leave. ignore the village entirely. whatever. can only do different ways if village saving quest is NOT critical to plot. and we know that josh has read the complaints 'bout nwn2 and other games. 'course you is aware that a large % of people want impossible... want to choose how critical path develops... wanna break the critical path if they so desire. am certain we has seen you post at codex... this can't be news. when people on this and other boards talk 'bout THE story they ain't talking 'bout the gestalt results of combined critical path and optional quests and joinables... they is talking 'bout the critical path. had just that argument on these boards the other day. "oh, sure, in your game i can sell the baker's children into slavery or smuggle them to safety if i want, but i still end up being led around by the developers for 40 hours. that sucks. why can't i choose?" you want give people compelling critical path story and meaningful choices 'long the way? ok, but first you is gonna have to somehow convince people that THE story isn't what they think it is. again, is the tangential and optional side quests where you can gets choices, and the more of those quests you got, the more peoples talk 'bout non-linear... even if critical path is just as fixed as in nwn2. HA! Good Fun!

"The main plot is pretty basic and has very few plot critical components." that is kinda our point. is almost no real bifurcations. you got a pretty basic critical path and lots of optional and tangential side quests. real choices that have impact beyond the scope of the Tangential/Optional side quest is few. joinbale npcs can be both critical and optional side quest... may have aspects thats fit into critical path, but those plot critical elements is still gonna be largely fixed... the real "meaningful" choices is gonna be available as part of the tangential and optional side quests... which is gonna result in many peoles claiming that Real choices couldn't be made. strong story w/ bifurcations? not really possible. real meaningful choices w/o bifurcations? again, not really possible. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

tangential and optional side quests makes people feels like they is getting non-linear. is mostly smoke n' mirrors, but is a nice feature. meaningful choices that alter the narrative is complete other issue. is difficult to writes good story with multiple genuine bifurcations... choose-your-own-adventure books were popular in the early 80s, but they never really caught on... in part 'cause the narrative style is self-defeating, and also 'cause they rarely coulds finds a competent writer to works in that way. "When Janice stepped into the breach and held off the horde so that the Prince could escape, it was symbolic of..." "But Janice didn't hold off the horde in My story," says a fan of bifurcating stories. "In my game, Janice was stabbed in the back by Wil Of Sot, my morally challenged character." you wants deep and compelling story and characters AND many bifurcations resulting from meaningful choices. good luck. give a couple bifurcations of critical path and lots of optional and tangential side quests that can be having their own bifurcations as well. can't have too many bifurcations of critical path w/o ending up with a mess. HA! Good Fun!