Gromnir

by TheRealMoriarty Mar 10th, 2007 12:38:13 AM Actually, my point was that the film is not a political screed, but that I'm sure people will project in order to pump up their own point of view. But thanks for calling me an a$$hole anyway. moriarty explained what he meant... you simply continue to ignore. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

just a quick aside, 'cause this thing is cooked, none of the reviewers at aicn claimed that 300 is political. a guy named moriarty mentioned politics in his review, but azar-class reading skills led to confusion among the rabble: by TheRealMoriarty Mar 10th, 2007 12:38:13 AM Actually, my point was that the film is not a political screed, but that I'm sure people will project in order to pump up their own point of view. But thanks for calling me an a$$hole anyway. the posts at aicn is almost all non-political, and those that is went off onto a tangent 'bout whether or not israel or palestinians is more worthy o' terrorist label. the other aicn posts is usual mish-mash: claim that reviewer is paid by producers, questions 'bout whether or not is appropriate to take kids, note that this is not historical accurate, replies that people demanding historical accuracy from an obvious fantasy-adventure flick is morons, i like pie, etc. as noted above, some few people at aicn talks politics, but not many, and those that do talk of 300 politics is split. why? 'cause that moriarty clown actually were correct. 'cause 300 ain't political ('members our lesson 'bout hollywood subtlety and propaganda,) it is easier for viewer to read nonsesne into 300. and you don't recall the reviews and responses to lotr very well. were just as many reviewers that complained 'bout the obviously muslim/black aspect o' the human portion o' sauron's army, and a complete absence o' minority actors for the Good Guys, as well as other increasingly ridiculous observations. as to astro's observations 'bout norbit and taladega nights, if you makes a claim that bush is representing norbit and come up with some wacky conspiracy theory 'bout how a black movie released at this moment in history is obviously done to garner a politically charged reaction, we suspect that at least one person would respond and identify your theory as nut jobish... no doubt the movie cars would lend itself equally well to azar political commentary, after all, the movie cars were relaeased just as nascar was debating 'bout whether or not to allow toyota to enter teams into their series, which is pretty much the extent o' our nascar knowledge. even so, nascar is far more Aerican than a bunch o' greeks circa 480bc. HA! Good Fun!

gotta love reply/quote. that way you not answer the post, but instead respond to sippets... mostly we see that you rest on notion o' mid-east v. west, with leonidas somehow standing in for bush simply 'cause he represents west (HA!) or somesuch nonsense... but this bit really took cake. "Lord of the Rings, another film you brought up as a possible candidate for the same sort of "political foolery," did not receive nearly as much flak, either among major critics or the average netizen." HHHHAAAA!!!! we gotta thank you for that bit son... made our day to get such a laugh, though we did stop reading at that point. you gots a mighty selective memory, and maybe a streak o' narcissism to deal with if you think lotr, book and/or movie got less political commentary. HA! Good Fun! ps how many copies o' 300 were floating 'round previous to last couple months? you mention the debate raised by 300 previous to release, but most o' that were relying on as shallow an interp as you got: simple west v. mid-east. why? 'cause aside from the comick book geeks, nobody really knew the miller 300 story, and the miller fans were, as we has said til we is blue in face, near unanimous in acknowledgment that 300 were an anti-establishment tale that made bush looks bad IF you were to make 300 a political allegory.... which, as you may recall, is reason why you keep bringing up the ADDED material for your support. *shakes head sadly* we been going so long that you forgot how you got started. HA!

that is precisely Gromnir's point. people has been reading political agenda and content into miller writings for a long time... and virtually all of it is imaginary... is people seeing what they wish to. the crazy thing is that azar comes to a conclusion

poor azar. is not like he claims that 300 is pro-bush propaganda, per se, but he Does see the added material as being OBVIOUSLY politically motivated, and over and over he explains how leonidas can very easily stand in for bush and how the timing o' release somehow proves that 300 is mid-east allegory, or some such nonsense. ... yeah, you is really being misrepresented... and don't even get started on the logic bit, 'cause you clearly abandoned that route early in this thread. tell us again 'bout the conspiracy theory you got 'bout timing o' 300 release adn Gromnir will be able to devote an entire page o' material illuminating all the logic fallacies and bass ackwards reasoning. "What, Leonidas can't stand for Bush because he can also stand for Xerxes under a different reading? Who made that rule in cinematic interpretation?" loosen up the tifoil hat. sure you can see into 300 whatever the hell you wish... just as Gromnir can argue that miller ripped off the smurfs. you gonna go the pure subjective route... claim that there ain't no way you can be wrong 'cause it is all just subjective interpretation? HA! that is a slippery slope indeed, and pretty much kills the last few pages of your contribution to this thread, but go for it if you wish

obama's biggest obstacle might not be that he is black, but rather that he ain't black enough. h. clinton is currently doing better with black voters, 'ccording to polls. one reason given for this were that black voters didn't identify with obama... presumably 'cause he had a white mother, his father is actually from kenya, and he grew up in indonesia and hawaii and attended a prep school from 5-12th grade. his father and mother divorced when he was 2 and dad went back to kenya leaving mom and his maternal grandparents doing the actual child rearing of the young obama. is a great story, but it seems that many black voters just don't feel that obama is their black candidate. also, and this may offend the sensibilities o' some posters in this particular place, but obama may not be religious enough. obama admits that he were pretty much raised w/o religion until he reached his 20s. weren't til he started a career in politics that he found religion. this fact seems to bother both some % relgious and non-religious voters alike. nevertheless, we suspect that finding religion were, at the very least, necessary for somebody with an eye on the oval office. obama is an intriguing candidate... HA! Good Fun!

"Not to mention all the GAY references! I mean WOW! " what is REALLY funny is that in spite of some anti-gay comments in 300, we bets that every gay male in the country is gonna buy 300 as soon as it becomes avilable on dvd. after all, 300 is like 2 hours o' soft core gay pr0n, with high production values. ... 300 gots one valuable side-benefit. any woman that oggled at 300 cannot now justifiably criticize men who watches such stuff as... dunno, what is the current equivalent o' baywatch? a movie with 300 oiled up guys wearing speedos... and yet we not yet heard one woman criticizing how those poor men were being objectified and degraded. tsk HA! Good Fun!

grilled cheese sandwiches IS comfort food... so maybe Gromnir used the image of the sandwich purposefully to further bend your mind to our will... soften you up with the fond memories related to eating grilled cheese sandwiches as a kid. conspiracy. btw, Gromnir thinks that azas biggest mistake is mistaking the director/producer desire to make 300 a tad more pc, with pro-bush propaganda. should be obvious how far the two is apart... but maybe not. the villains in 300, the comic, is all dark-skinned or crippled. no doubt the producers were aware of how such a thing could irritate a % of viewers. so make leonidas nicer to the hunchback, and add a white bad-guy, and makes xerxes a decadent ruler who gots mutants and monsters in his army as 'posed to simply being a tall black man. is kinda funny. the folks who make 300 add in some minor pc alterations, and now they somehow gots a small % o' people who thinks such changes makes the movie a pro-bush vehicle.... when they were probaly genuinely worried that people would come away seeing bush as xerxes. a zero-sum gain. made film easier to swallow for minorities and handicap, but now you got the anti-bush lobby riled up. no-win. HA! Good Fun!

and again, if you looks hard 'nuff at the grilled cheese sandwich you will see whatever the heck you want. you donned your tinfoil hat and somehow turned this flick into a movie 'bout the middle-east situation, and then you takes individual details out of context to show that the movie is a vehicle for political propaganda. you hinge so much on the release time of movie, but for that to have any relevance at all we gotta accept that this is indeed a movie with a political agenda, which you prove by pointing out when the movie were released... hilarious circular nonsense. sin city made money. next thing you know, another non-dc miller story is turned into a movie. conspiracy fodder? again, Gromnir can point out individual details in 300 to prove it were a smurf rip-off, and to do so we do not have to ignore the core message o' 300. hell, to try and show that 300 ain't 'bout resisting The Man and the value o' personal freedom, you contrast to ANOTHER miller anti-establishment work. HA! at best you maybe conclude that 300 is less anti-establishment than sin city? more fantastic logic. *chuckle* a small group o' freedom fighters spit in the eye o' the law, of the establishment and they go off to fight a hopeless battle to defend their homelend from a foreign tyrant/superpower. they willingly sacrifice their lives 'cause they is fighting for their freedom and their children's freedom. no matter what you see in the added material (more than simple boosting of run-time and giving the female lead something to do,) it don't change the core story a bit. surely any person not bedecked in tinfoil hats is gonna realize that the basic story o' 300 makes it unsuited as a pro bush propaganda piece 'bout the middle-east conflict. but hey, ignore the story and focus on fact that 300 takes place in greece (not the middle-east) which is the cradle o modern democracy... 'cause somehow that detail, stretched a bit, makes leonidas a stand in for bush? HA! ignore the story and hang on some o' those all important details instead. and suggesting that a vigilante anti-establishment is part o' the bush conservative platform is nuts... simply identify that vigilante is typically placed on the right-wing side of the spectrum is more of your bad logic, 'cause you complete ignore just how far to the right o' mainstream consevative thinking the vigilante bit is... which is why even undergrad political science courses is gonna point out to you that the left v. right spectrum is actually a circle, with extreme right and left eventually meeting. regardless, astro is essenially correct in that this is same stuff we see from hollywood over the years... but that not go far 'nuff. 'cause in point o' fact, 300 gots the same basic heroic elements as beowulf had, and that were the first bit o' english writing, and not much 'bout the modern hero story has changed since then... other than the addition o' romance, which is exactly what snyder had to add to 300, 'cause 300 were a stripped down hero story. for chrissakes, you might as well prove to us that lotr were released as part o' a pro-bush propaganda campaign, 'cause it gots similar elements. and the details is even more us v. them heavy... not hard to makes middle-east fanatics a good stand-in for sauron's army... probably easier than the extreme gymnastics you is using to make leonidas into bush... though you admit that bush could just as easily stand in for xerxes, which should make OBVIOUS that your suggestion that 300 is political ain't quite as OBVIOUS as you thought. sin city made money. next thing you know, another non-dc miller story is turned into a movie. conspiracy? do you perhaps read some editorial at The Onion and maybe failed to see the joke? put away the tinfoil hat and eat the sandwich rather than trying to figure out what sort o' political agenda the toasted bread and melty cheese might be hiding. sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich. of all the movies for the crackpots to latch onto as proof o' pro bush propaganda, 300 is particularly ill-suited, precisely because, as you concede, bush could just as easily stand in for xerxes if you assume a political motivation into the production. for your conspiracy to gain legs, we now gotta assume that the makers o' 300 were so incompetent that they would not have realized how the message o' 300 would undermine their aim to create a pro-bush political piece. 'course that seems unlikely considering miller's history with critics and fans. propaganda ain't never as subtle and as ambiguous as azar seems to believe, 'cause if people don't GET IT, then your propaganda failed... and what would be the point then? HA! Good Fun!

oh and btw, since this not seem to be understood, Gromnir gots no problem with pro-bush folks or anti-bush people taking the message of 300 for their own. good art inspires. no doubt miller would be proud if he saw so many disparate peoples and groups adopting his message as their own. the problem we got is your notion that some elements in 300 were so "obvious" political motivated. bull. you is seeing what you wish to, which is your prerogative... but suggesting that snyder or miller were adding material to promote a political agenda Obviously to support some political pov is the stuff o' conspiracy theories

"But don't act like I'm a nutjob because of your strawmans and misrepresentations." don't forget your circular reasoning and your own reliance 'pon straw men... though we concede that some o' your strawman routine were simply poor reading. am particularly a fan of the conspiracy theory 'bout timing of 300 release. of course 300 is political pro-bush, just look at how/when it were released, right? but to get there we gotta accept 300 as being viewed as a movie 'bout the middle-east conflict, which requires us to accept on your initial premise that 300 content were politically motivated. classic, really. "Furthermore, 300 being anti-establishment is only relevant insofar as Bush can be symbolically cast as The Man" actually, no. 300 had an anti-establishment message long before bush became President and that message actually exists beyond politics. even miller has admitted that his works got a strong pro-liberty and anti-establishment message... but assume for a moment that xerxes is representative of no more than xerxes. great. how does that change our observations o' 300 insofar as basic themes is concerned? not at all... which is exactly why the anti-establishment folks love miller. you still got the vigilante freedom fighter flaunting the law to go off and get himself killed in a fight with a seemingly unbeatable tyrant. freedom is worth fighting for. freedom is worth dying for. change the names and dress up bush in xerxes garb or bush garb (HA!) and the core story not change a bit. heck, change the title to TDKR and you still got same message. you quibble over which character symbolizes what nation or leader, but you ignore the gosh darned story. so yeah, in that sense we thinks you is a nut job... a nut job like so many other folks who works so damned hard to plant political motivations and causes into a piece o' literature or in a film, you work overtime to show how some detail makes 300 looks like pro-bush propaganda, while complete ignoring the actual gosh darned story. and yeah, we gots no doubt that some audiences and critics has seen pro-bush propaganda in 300. as we noted above, thousands o' people saw the virgin mary and proof of God's existence in a gosh darned grilled cheese sandwich. People will see what they wish to. HA! Good Fun!

this is getting wacky. you is still dead-set on the notion that there is an obvious angling twoards modern politics... when in point o' fact all you got is a freaking grilled cheese sandwich. for chrissakes, brown-skinned enemies were one o' your so-called points. HA! go on and on and on 'bout the obvious use o' modern political dogma, when it ain't there less you try to convince self. *sigh* and Gromnir will once more try to explain miller to you, and where a 180 took place... 'cause our only claim is that you tooks a logical 180 rather than that your pov reversed. you see black, and then try to argue that you is actually showing us white. see, miller's writing DOES INDEED suggest various pro-liberty and pro-vigilante view points, which is why so many critics thought he were pro-terrorism and pro-anarchy. the critics and fans who thought that miller were pro-terrorist were not wacky and out in left feld, even if they were trying too hard to add politics into miller's works. IF miller had been making a political statement with his writing, then it would clearly have been an anti-establishment message. 300, written pre-bush and war on terrorism, is clearly having much similar themes and characters to previous miller works, same fight for liberty and freedom message. same anti-authority stuff. same old miller that gots him the wacky lefty liberal label. so, azar comes along and knows of miller pov on the war on terrorism stuff (which is just a small issue as far as personal politics is concerned,) and he sees or hears of 300 and how some white looking guys is spouting off 'bout freedom and they is fighting brown-skinned enemies, and azar complete ignores all the repeated miller content likes liberty and vigilante justice, and how a single person or small group is pitted in a fight 'gainst a super-power in 300, and somehow agrees with notion that yeah, 300 is a pro-bush vehicle. bravo. another triumph of reason. cospiracy nuts see conspiracies everywhere. congrats. you prove once again that a good conspiracy is bestest when it has as little fact as possible to support. "Or maybe Hollywood decided 300 would make more money because it's politically relevant? It's not a conspiracy theory to push out a film of public interest in order to make more doe. See Munich, Kingdom Under Heaven, etc.." the most circular absurdity we has seen today. is NOT politically relevant 'less you imagine in all kinds o' crap as azar has done... stuff which the director and writer has both said ain't there, and stuff which would clearly be 180 degrees opposite of EVERYTHING miller has ever done in past. "Fight for freedom" is not changing 300 to pro-establishment. brown-skinned enemies? HA! a legislature that lacks patriotism? you gotta be kidding. these middling details (one of which proves opposite of what you suggest,) in no way changes fact that 300 is a tale of how a vigilante king ignores corrupt laws and goes forth on a suicide mission to fight a Tyrant/Superpower from a foreign land, a Tyrant/Superpower that seeks to conquer and enslave his people. no doubt the producers/directors/and writers had some fears that the reasonable but inaccurate argument would be raised that miller's tale were pro-terrorist and anti-american, 'cause unlike azar gymnastics, it ain't hard to see 300 as anti-establishment at the very least. sure, ignore fact that the obvious and simple explanation for 300 production were the success of sin city... 'cause that makes too much sense. instead you gotta somehow imagine that 300 is actually a middle-east-war-on-terrorism allegory to explain why it were made. and further ignore the fact that it seems like most people ain't seeing no political allegory at all, and those that does is split as to whether it is pro or con on the issue. that 'bout right? ... sure, that makes perfect sense. nuts. HA! Good Fun!

now you has finally gone over the edge. go back and review thread and observe how many times Gromnir has conceded that miller IS NOT pro-terrorist. (we will give you a moment to do so now.) more than once or twice? good. the POINT, which you keeps missing, is that before miller came out and specifically said that he were anti-terrorist, there was a large % of critics and fans who believed that miller's writing were pro-anarchist and pro-terrorist. his writing is repetitive in sense that there is always some idealist who finds himself forced by fate to confront the Establishment, THE MAN! what is so darn hilarious is that azarkon goes and does 180. because miller admits that he is anti-terrorist, azarkon ignores miller's actually Pro-Liberty, Vigilante v. The Man writing... ignores that in previous miller works the hero fights the police and the church and the US Government, ignores fact that this is the same miller who had batman kick superman's arse while superman is acting as ronald regan's pawn, and sees that bush and miller is both anti-terrorist... so somehow azrkon sees 300 as pro bush. HA! the insanity of it all really gets Gromnir in the funny bone "So in your mind terrorists = Iraqi freedom fighters? Bleh. We've had this discussion before." how did you get that? again, we don't subscribe to the argument that miller is pro-terrorist, and Gromnir is clearly anti-terrorism, but for those people who is sympathetic to terrorists, as many people suspected miller to be, the argument is invariably made that the gap 'tween freedom fighter and terrorist is small. in no way is Gromnir suggesting that freedom fighters= terrorists, just as we clearly were not saying that miller ripped off the smurfs to make 300. how obtuse is you gonna try and be? "Everything about its release time reeks of capitalizing on the conflict in the Middle-East. Of course, this has little to do with the story of 300 itself-" oh for chrissakes. more freaking conspiracy theories? maybe the release and production o' 300 has something to do with the popularity o' sin city. hollywood is not real imaginative. frank miller only got so many movie appropriate works that can be turns into movies... 'less you wanna pay huge monies to dc. sin city made money. THAT is the most obvious motivation. "Please. Feel free to call them weak if you want, but you're not convincing anyone that they don't exist." *chuckle* firstly, Gromnir never suggested that no material were added to 300, but you really should not walks into such pitfalls so blindly. let us assume that you is correct for a second. and let us assume that all the examples you give 'bove were, we 'spose fro your comments, attempts to makes leonidas seems more cuddly so that people would swallow pro-bush propaganda. right, 'cause hollywood is ssssooooo pro-bush. didn't gore get an academy award, and the dixie chicks gots all kinds of awards at the grammies this year? hollywood, at the moment, is so damn patriotic that they is making a whole slew of the gung-ho war movies like... oh, well, we guess that we don't go to the movies often 'nuff, 'cause "flags of our fathers" were the last big budget war movie we recall and it were hardly gung-ho, was it? oh, and if you were to make a pro-bush propaganda movie, the obvious thing to do would be to take a movie that seems to glorify the outnumbered vigilante freedom fighter protecting his homeland against an impossibly powerful tyrant from across the sea, and use THAT story to make a pro-bush propaganda film. sneaky? stoopid? hey, is your conspiracy theory, you explain. its a grilled cheese sandwich. the movie is 'bout heroism and sacrifice and the fight for freedom. miller makes some sweeping generalizations 'bout society (though clearly not so much as he did with TDKR,) and he uses themes that has been 'round since beowulf. material were added to give characters a back story and to give a female role meaning, but the flick is exactly what it appears to be... is a grilled cheese sandwich. your conspiracy theories notwithstanding. HA! Good Fun!

"Come off it. Critics sometimes read too much into films and come up with absurd interpretations that defy common logic, but here we have a film where even the average netizen is seeing parallels. Maybe the director (as I said, this has nothing to do with Miller unless he screenwrote the fillers) didn't intend it, but he sure as hell should've expected it." who said they didn't expect it? point is that it were not the intent of the writer or director to do as you thinks they is doing. what you see as pro-bush propaganda were clearly not the intent of anybody involved in the project, and in point o' fact, we suspect that their fear were something quite different, 'cause miller has been fighting the same battle for a long, long time. and no, you can't name a dozen instances in which material were added to make leonidas more sympathetic... your one example is pretty darn weak and we wouldn't even bother to include as making leonidas genuinely sympathetic. "I still don't see how you can even begin to argue that Leonidas was a terrorist without resorting to pin finding." and yet you do find bush parallels? HA! by the way, we never said that leonidas were a terrorist, but his cause and actions is far more likely to draw parallels to the terrorists than to bush. a handful of vigilantes, acting outside the bounds of the law, killing heralds and maiming ambassadors, fighting a suicidal battle 'gainst a tyrant from across the sea, in hopes that their deaths will inspire a nation and a people to action will resonate more with those we call terrorists, or with the bush cabinet? you not see how such a story could be held up as being sympathetic for those freedom fighters in palestine and afghanastan and iraq who never actually thinks of themselves as terrorists? heck, even your claims that the queen lobbying the legislature were a bush parallel works better for the terrorists. after all, bush had congressional support for his invasions o' afghanastan and iraq. is the terrorists who feel compelled to act w/o the sanction of legitimate governing bodies. HA! miller has been fighting the anarchist/pro-terrorist label long for 300 were printed, and as you has observed, miller's personal pov is clearly anti-terrorism. nevertheless, you jokers looks at the sandwich and see what you will. if you were now arguing that miller were pro-anarchy or terrorism we could at least understand where you is coming from, but the notion that the guy who created TDKR would be involved in a pro-bush propaganda vehicle is patently ludicrous. and the only reason Gromnir argues with you is 'cause Gromnir is sympathetic to miller's plight... and to other artists. is painful to watches wacky people try to turn their works into some kinda allegory in favor/against war, abortion, conservation, or whatever else the topic o' the hour is. you wanna see some additional 'cause to dislike the bush administration and those evil peoples who support him? fine. just eat the freaking sandwich 'stead 'o trying to seeing imagined patterns int the toasted bread. HA! Good Fun!

"I don't think it's a logical stretch to say that Xerxes and Leonidas can, variably, both represent Bush." well, so much for your conclusions being based on the OBVIOUS, eh? again, as you yourself has noted above, miller is clearly not a pro-terrorist, and it is highly unlikely that he would create a graphic novel encouraging terrorism. nevertheless, Gromnir's pro-terrorist interp of 300 is at least as likely as your pro-bush nonsense... more so in point of fact. keep staring at the grilled cheese sandwich and you will find whatever the hell you wish, and you pretty much concede that point with the bit we quoted in this post. regardless, it is hardly OBVIOUS that miller or the director o' 300 had any sort o' political motivations in making 300. you wanna keep staring at the grilled cheese sandwich to find proof of pro or anti bush images? go for it. might as well look for parallels to the smurfs... and Gromnir can do that too if you wish... use select images from 300 to Prove that miller simply were ripping off the smurfs. nuts. we can see one bit o' material added to movie to makes leonidas seem more sympathetic and less the suicide bomber, but oddly 'nuff nobody here seems to mention. go figure. HA! Good Fun!

"Like I said - it's not that critics are reading too much into it, but that it's too obvious not to read anything into... Unless we assume that the director/screenwriter is so incompetent as to be unconscious of what he's inserting." *chuckle* is SO obvious that half the people at aicn an imdb is findinding opposite conclusion you did... and Gromnir is thinking that you is all nuts. queen stuff is not American freedom or euro freedom or middle-east freedom. you is simply looking at the grilled cheese sandwich and seeing what you wish to. the queen's stuff were added to give a non-combatant female an ative role and to be making a sacrifice similar to leonidas... sacrifice body and soul. could just as easily make parallel to any other political body. wanna exploit minor details to make a point? Gromnir can do too.... maybe 300 is actually pro terrorist, after all, the 300 is a small group o' freedom fighters that essentially go on a suicide bombing run against a Tyrant, a tyrant far from his own lands, with vast resources and improved technology. the suicide fighters die so as to mobilize their countryment to eventual victory... and the queen stuff, well that is obviously more middle-eastern than american... 'specially as the writers make a big deal 'bout how women is not allowed to join in male politics. gives the middle-eastern women a role-model inspite o' their relative impotence in me politics, a more photogenic hannan mikha'il-ashrawi? ... is a freaking grilled cheese sandwich. HA! Good Fun!

10 years ago a woman in florida made a grilled cheese sandwich... claimed that she could see the image of the virgin mary in the toasted bread. next thing you know, thousands o' people is suggesting that the grilled cheese is Proof o' God. heck, in ten years the tasty luncheon morsel never went moldy... is obviously proof of God's will. ... people wanna see God's divine power in a sandwich? fine. how much easier is it to see pro-bush propoganda in 300? take whatever message you want to from 300. Gromnir liked the action sequences well enough... but am not sure if the film managed to indoctrinate us with pro or anti bush sentiment. am s'possing that if a good old fashioned brain washing were the goal, then 300 were a bit of a failure. too bad, 'cause we really did likes the cinematography and on-screen mayhem. HA! Good Fun!

for chrissakes...xerxes was brown-skinned 'cause the rl xerxes was brown-skinned. no other reason. in TDKR, all of the adversaries is white. and the notion that a hero is heterosexual should warrant considerable reflection, 'cause how rare is it for heroic male characters in lit and film to be hetero? obviously miller gots some kinda agenda. and yeah, leonidas looks like the ubermensch, but that too is a rarity in a freaking comic book, eh? miller the fascist... HA! you people is a hoot. miller creates a comic book in which a handful of idealists rush off vigilante style to oppose a tyrant, The Man, knowing full well that in so doing they is gonna die... and somehow you clowns see bush propoganda? HA! Good Fun!

"300 came out in 1998 so it's difficult to argue that it's a pro-Bush propaganda piece." so why try? the senate stuff were tacked on to give the female lead something to do... try not to read so much into it. the queen obviously were gonna be a non-combatant, so how could writers/directors has her actively fight for freedom? have her sew more red capes? has her rally the peoples directly? sure, coulda' gone that way, but you still gotta work sacrifice into the mix. you see the tree and miss the forest. as for miller... you is again reading far too much into what little you has read from him. miller is all 'bout fighting for Personal Freedom. do yourself a favor and actually read some miller stuff, 'cause if you did you should be aware that there is a running theme in all his works... an individual gots to stand up to and against an unjust establishment and fight for liberty and justice. the establishment may change, but the message is always the same. Ronald Regan Cold War US, the Church, The Police, Xerxes, etc. The Man takes many forms, and miller uses each symbolically rather than literal. miller's stand on terrorism is understandable, 'cause terrorism takes choice away from folks, which makes it 'bout as anti-liberty as you can get... 'least that is what he told Gromnir way back in 1989. *shrug* the jokers who somehows sees 300 as a pro-bush propoganda piece is wacky. in point o' fact, it is far easier to put bush/America in the role of xerxes than it is to has bush=leonidas... but that too would be missing the point o' miller's message. HA! Good Fun!

... is not like 300 is miller's first graphic novel. the same guy who had batman kick superman's (truth, justice and the American Way,) arse is the guy who created some kinda pro-bush propoganda piece? 300 is less political than is TDKR, and is maybe a bit less clever in the way it is structured, but miller is still miller, and miller's leonidas and batman gots lots in common. people will see what they wish to see. HA! Good Fun!

whatever faults captain america possessed, at least he were kewler than captain britain. HA! Good Fun!

similar? only in the sense that in both 300 and sin city, the dialogue as written in the comic book were not meant to be spoken. stuff in print not always translate well when it has a living person doing the speakings... will seem forced, over-blown, hokie. sin city were going for film noir... very different dialogues from 300. that being said, Gromnir suspects that 300, as a relatively faithful adaptation, will face same problem that sin city did: Frank Miller's dialogues ain't always fit for human mouths. HA! Good Fun!

drizzle is the ideal character to exploit fantasy geeks and losers. from the very start, sex and drow were linked... were drawn pretty in modules and in fiend folio and described as decadent and promiscuous. geeks and losers not know much 'bout sex so they is more fascinated by it. drow gots same appeal as does vampires and similar beings. also, drizzle is a comic book super hero. fantasy geeks and losers tends to be fans o' comic books, and drizzle mighta' jumped straight from pages of marvel or dc. sure, drizzle started as a simply a competent drow swordsman, but salvatore quickly changed so that driz would be magic with swords in hand... capable o' acheiving the most improbable victories. most important, driz is beautiful and heroic and shunned by a society simply 'cause he is different... and his original drow brethren shun him 'cause he refused to conform. fantasy geeks and losers amost always feels likes outsiders and so they can empathize with drizzle. the thing is that drizzle still has powerful peoples who know his worth, and he has hot babes who is attracted to him, so drizzle is an outsider who has friends of quality and romance with supermodels? ... poor driz. lucky driz. bah. HA! Good Fun!

now let us be honest. cut 20 hours from a crpg and it ain't gonna simply be the Donkey Kong repetitive barrel jumping that gets thrown aways. also, keeps in mind that cutting repetitious combats and you would still have gotten to level 20... and people woulda' complained 'bout that too. mindless and repetitous activties in a game is hardly limited to crpgs... but crpg developers IS pretty unapologetic 'bout the whole situation. in other games you gets such tedious filler in small doses... crpgs just does more. part o' blame can be laid at feets o' pnp rpg devlopers. heck, d&d and d20 even has some formula worked out from which crs is generated... forms whole basis for granting xps. most combats is not 'posed to be difficult or challenging in d&d, 'cause challenging requires expenditure o' valuable potions and wands and scrolls and magic ammo... not to mention the loss o' hps and possibly playerlives as well. crpgs follow similar formulas... but w/o all the time consuming dice rolling and bathroom breaks, developers adds in stuff to bolster a bit. the only genuine rpgs is mp games with a dm... or mmporpgs. d&d crpgs, for the most part, is squad-basd tactical combat games, with some rp elements thrown into the mix... so maybe compare to strat games. strategy games usually involves a realtive small number of maps or missions which for all intents and purposes functions likes big puzzles. you start off weak and pathetic with a few gunts or space marines or zergs or whatever. maps gets bigger and moe complex, and you gets to slowly access more units... is kinda like leveling. most of the battles you fights in a strategy game is pretty damn repetitious, no? vogel vastly overstates unique nature o' crpgs. in any event, Gromnir would be much in favor of decreasing the number o' barrels we gotta jump... the thing is that we would prefer that the devlopers increase the tactical/strategic challenges of the remaining combat encounters... but reload and rt hinder this somewhat, and the old pnp formula involving X encounters per level is gonna be hard to shakes too. cut 40 down to 20 w/o fundamental change in model would simply gives a game half as long... not result in a game with all the good stuff and none of the pointless barrel jumping. HA! Good Fun!

is nice that you believe so, but we has had such threads censured in past, and reasoning behind such censure is that such threads is spam... a shout out into the void w/o purpose save for hopes that somebody shouts back. sad. you wanna build community? is many constructive opportunities t do so. this is simply mod appoved spam. congrats. HA! Good Fun! We can build a community by kicking you to the curb. Me, myself and I thinks that Grommy got up on the wrong side of the bed today. HA! Good Fun! 'course, none o' your insights change fact that this kinda nonsense is spam. Gromnir not see a need for such crap. the Obsidians has said that this board is no place for such crap. tell us how the "i'm back" drivel is different than prohibited intro and birthday threads... 'cause 'less you come up with something rational and reasonable, wals should be locking/deleting... and he/she surely should not be suggesting that this kinda tripe builds community if it is his/her job to kill it. HA! Good Fun!