Gromnir

the quality of troika games, from fan perspective, has always been based on what tim promised in early previews, not on what ended up in games. am not sure why other developers weren't able to benefit from fan loyalty the way timmy did, but tim were judged not based 'pon what he delivered, but based on what he promised... tim were a great developer 'cause the stuff he said were gonna be in toee sounded great. sure, the alignemnt-based openings in toee were lame, and the way he manipulated d&d skills to offer rp options were terrible, but his vision sounded kewl, no? see, you gotta pretend that tim coulda' actually delivered 'pon his promises... if he had just gotten a little reasonable publisher support. 3 opportunities. 3 different publishers spent lots of money to screw troika projects and lose money for everybody. gotta believe that there were some complex conspiracy 'gainst timmy that resulted in multiple unrelated publishers spending millions o' dollars in an attempt to tarnish tim/troika legacy, but that seems kinda far-fetched to Gromnir. still, many tim fans seems convinced that tim gots raw deal. go figure. HA! Good Fun!

I meant in RL... But Whatever grommy. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> HA! such insight... what made you choose not to respond with, "I know you are, but what am I?" perhaps a mother joke were your next option? you know better than everybody else simply 'cause you you know. lord only knows why more people ain't overwhelmed by your reasoned discourse. "I'm not saying, incidentaly, that all games publishers should be expected to foster 'artistic' games. I just think that if we want them we have to support them, and to a certain extent barrack when potential is squandered." even if you were interested in having a publisher foster artistic merit at expense of quarterly report, we not know what that gots to do with troika. arcanum weren't exactly breaking new grounds from gameplay or story pov... and toee? HA! there were some interview over at ign in which troikanauts explained goals of toee... before relationship with atari went into the crapper. toee were 'posed to be first in line of a series of quick development crpgs that replicated old d&d modules... and it seems like tim and the troika guys never did play d&d modules 'cause they simply tried to recreate toee exact, and any dm knows that even a highly developed mod likes toee were simply a framework. regardless, from start, troika were aware of the limited expectations for toee... and those expectations weren't exactly of the New Art type, eh? never played bloodlines, so maybe in spite of reviews that game were approaching art, but as far as we can tell, the first two troika games were not exactly attempts to breaks new ground or makes players weep 'cause of depth o' tim's vision. seemed likes some pretty mediocre plebian entertainment goals. HA! Good Fun!

"I know what I know from own experience, and through contacts in the industry, Core Design, Team 17, Smaller Developers such as Creative North." and Gromnir knows 'bout relative job difficulty of game developers from having spoken with developers at bioware and black isle and click and cave dog and a half dozen other places... a few of which no longer exist. with few exceptions, game developers will bemoan how tough their job is, right up until they start talking 'bout how tough other jobs they has had. *chuckle* you know what you know... ss knows what he knows and Gromnir knows what he knows. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

as somebody who works for bethesda, regardless of the capacity, ss is no doubt able to observe first-hand the inner workings of a MAJOR game developer. if we is gonna subscribe to the whole Appeal to Authority stuff, then so far it looks like ss holds the trump card in this thread. HA! Good Fun!

so your seeming nuttyness is your way o' sending us all to a deep, dark place... and you enjoys doing so? fair 'nuff. HA! Good Fun! btw, (and this ain't directed at vol,) there is many jobs that require constant education to keeps pace with industry... we doubt game developer learning curve is tougher than doctor or lawyer or even accountant learning curve.

we gots common ground. HA! Good Fun!

Is that the Kanadian version of ROFLWTFBBQ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> is best not to ask too many questions 'bout what vol is thinking. HA! Good Fun!

atari had sales numbers for toee in the 300k range... which made it a slight better seller than the nwn expansions. regardless, your numbers show that all troika games were pretty pathetic sellers... so am not sure what point is being made with the wiki stuff. and vol is again comparing xbox to pc... not same. don't go off on your je defense again. HA! Good Fun!

"Arcanum, ToEE & Bloodlines were all excellent Games that sold quite well." numbers don't back that pov. lack o' sequels or expansions, if nothing else, should convince you that your belief is faulty, but we doubt it will. and as tough as it is to believe, our recollection is that atari were proven correct. toee ended up being the biggest seller for troika. fans of d&d bought in spite of poor reviews and terrible feedback. atari were counting on fact that initial sales that came in before end of quarter would soften blow of releasing a bad game. is a shame too... 'cause the turn-based combat in toee were pretty good. sadly, 'cause toee were a failure, now no publisher will touch tb combat in a d&d game. is typical publisher overreacting... much like the way publishers reacted to failure of ps:t. baby goes out with bathwater. HA! Good Fun!

"Then you must be a very very successful person earning in the region of $70,000+" thank you. "Look Trokia did the best with what they had to make the best quality products they could under the circumstance, business wise yeah they scrwed up" then they really DIDN'T do the best they could have... 'less you presume that their business failures on 3 different projects were unavoidable... which is pretty much insane. HA! Good Fun!

after much backtracking by some, we finally gots everybody to agree that troika were not very good at the business of making games. pretty much ends debate on actual issues. the "woe is troika" nonsense has been put to rest. now all folks have to talk 'bout in this thread is the tangential stuff. HA! Good Fun! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> *Sigh* but trokia made some nice games, hence the dispute. Sometime I really wonder WHY you have not tried your hand in the games industry in a manager role, after all, you make out like you know it all <{POST_SNAPBACK}> know it all? no... and yet again, THAT is the point. Gromnir not know it all, but we seem to know more than did timmy 'bout some very basic aspects of running a business. besides which, we wouldn't wanna take a pay cut. and no, there were never a dispute 'bout whether or not troika made games you thought were good... that is simply where you retreated. is no way possible to argue your subjective belief. the article that inspired thread were a "woe is troika" article... troika got screwed. troika didn't get screwed. troika got 3 opportunities to lose publisher money. most developers we has spoken with would happily breaks at least 8 or 9 of the 10 commandments for 1 such chance, much less three. whether or not NatS likes troika games had little to do with article or thread... you is off-topic. HA! Good Fun!

after much backtracking by some, we finally gots everybody to agree that troika were not very good at the business of making games. pretty much ends debate on actual issues. the "woe is troika" nonsense has been put to rest. now all folks have to talk 'bout in this thread is the tangential stuff. HA! Good Fun!

I can, quite easily. Go install flooring, carpet is particularly strenuous and difficult. It has all the issues that game development has, AND physically intense. Doctor, lawyer, nurse, hell baby sitting is more difficult than game development. Get some perspective, game development isn't that tough. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> roofing supply were the most stressful and strenuous job we ever had. gets paid by square, so work with a bad crew or in bad weather and you get screwed. throwing and catching 40-60lb stacks o' tile on roof where it gets to be 120 degrees in california summer... and 'cause you is getting paid by square, many/most co-workers is on speed. worstest job we ever had. kiddie prison guard were stressful, but not strenous. were counter-intuitive, but high security were the least stressful unit. we liked being office manager at firm 'cause it were less real work than were our other job, but we knew that our skills were getting rusty the longer we did the management/organizational stuff. teaching were easiest and least stressful. current job can be very stressful... is much easier/better ways to make similar or better money. HA! Good Fun!

again, am not quite sure where sl is incomplete even based on NatS subjective standard. as you ain't never even played sl end it seems difficult for you to make any useful observations 'bout the quality of art of sl end. no ctds on an xbox game like sl and as rp noted, the only real bugs were data entry annoyances. also, before NatS even asked the question we had already stated that we ain't a game developer (poor reading skillz, eh?) am not quite sure why he brings up yet again, or what point is attempted to be made. *shrug* am guessing that our oubvious lack o' creativity hamstrings us from understanding such wacky non-linear reasoning as is being offered by NatS. perhaps some sorta fine arts degree might help us understand better? HA! Good Fun!

make fun of vol logic, but without having actually seen sl ending you is trying to argue that it were unfinished? comes up with a wonderful syllogism: if sl ending lacked art as some codexians claimed, then sl were clearly an unfinished product. HA! weren't no noticeable missing art or dialogues that went nowhere at end or any other noteworthy absence... were simply that end were pretty unfulfilling and anti-climactic. when asked 'bout ending, chrisA made some excuse that end were done the way intended... were 'posed to be an Empire Strikes Back ending. specific noted that ending of game weren't worked on last and got short changed. 'ccording to chris A, ending were done as envisioned... were simply crappy vision. is any game that has bugs unfinished? sl had, as rp points out, some pretty obvious data entry errors. does presence of those things makes game unfinished? if so we challenges you to name a crpg that has been truly finished. did sl have more such data entry bugs than did kotor? is a tough call. nobody seems to complain that kotor were unfinished, but there were loads o' minor and major data entry errors that gave some pretty bass ackwards results when selecting feats and powers. sl expanded rules quite a bit and had more such errors. never ran into a serious gameplay bug, but we understands that there were at least one... but weren't that also the case for kotor? your game could gets stuck on the leviathan as we recall. were also a few corrupted game save bugs reported for kotor. as rp admits, the state of toee and sl were hardly =. am not sure how peoples determines which games is or ain't unfinished and how many bugs would makes a game qualify as unfinished seems to change from person to person, but it really ain't fair to lump toee and sl together given the vast difference 'tween how polished were troika's game compared to obsidian's offering. HA! Good Fun!

why put "fallout wasn't good" in quotes? if Gromnir never said, then how can you put in quotes? fallout were a moderate success as far as sales were concerned... is what we said in This thread. however, to be fair, in past we has admitted that fo weren't as good as some fans seems to suggest... which ain't surprsing as it somehow has become codexian Holy Grail. furthermore, we has pointed out that if released today fo would not be near as well received... and we ain't talking tech issues. fo's best character were a dog? pretty lackluster writing... bar has been raised as far as story aspects is concerned. throw in all the balance problems and hidden timer, and host o' other issues and the freshness o' fallout setting would not inspire same fanaticism now that it did when it were an original release. that being said, we liked fo and we thought it were a good game. have said many times that it were a good game. fo2 were better in most ways, but fo was a good game. HA! Good Fun!

"That weakness CAN be anything." *chuckle* whatever lets you salvage some pride. the world ain't like some silly crpg with point-buy. and making crpgs is a very expensive Business... but again, if you can salvage some pride by tweaking a bit, so be it. HA! Good Fun!

agreed. they could lose publisher money likes nobody else. and no, that weren't only their fault... gotta wonder 'bout the publishers that kept giving 'em money to be pi$$ing away. HA! Good Fun!

"Never stated that, just that some folks are not business minded, and those that are, have weaknesses in other places." HA! do you even read what you write? the weakness you allude to were creativity.... and that is silly. oh and if you feels personally insulted 'cause we called you a fool, then so be it. some of your claims, which you backpedal from and hedge quite a bit, seems more than a little foolish. in any event, 'least we gots everybody on same page now: tim and co. were crappy at the business side of the business of making games. HA! Good Fun!

also, am still finding it amusing that NatS seem to think that any person with some buisiness sense has gotta be lacking in creativity.... but that is a whole different tangent. HA! Good Fun!

"btw, As abvove, I actually like 2 out of 3 Troika games. But, you'd have to be absolutely blind to honestly believe that Troika is the top level of game development." tim were a top level jackass. shoulda' been obvious to him after failure #1 that he needed somebody to come in and organize his projects, but he were either too arrogant or too stoopid to realize that he/troika needed help. 3 failures? who the hell gets an opportunity to make 3 major failures in a row? how much money and manhours did he pi$$ away 'cause he never figured out that it weren't the evil publishers that were the problem? is not that tim gets less credit than he deserves... truth is that he is treated far too generous by fans and media and industry. stoopidity or arrogance? am not sure which were timmy's problem, but either way he were a top level yutz. "Don't be a fool, my point is simple, you cannot really say how good you may be at something until you actually give it a shot. My point as simple as I can make it for you Grommy, TIM CAIN != BIZ GENIUS, TIM CAIN == CODER. Now do you reckon those three guys knew they were gunna make huge mistakes on the business side?" only fool we see is you and timmy. how could tim have known that he might need business help running a business? *chuckle* heck, after the first couple of failures even the most dim bulb woulda' learned from mistakes. HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for clearing that up. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> actually, your question reaffirms our point. if Gromnir, who gots 0 experience in industry, is fully aware of pressures related to making a living working in an industry so inextricably beholden to THE QUARTERLY REPORT, then how much less of an excuse does timmy have for being so oblivious and naive? HA! Good Fun! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The difference here was that Tim and Co, hadn't had the experience before in that area of the industry, but gave it a shot anyway, They're obviously not very good at running a studio, that does not mean that the games they created should be viewed as lesser simply because the company no longer exists. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> troika games is judged solely on their merits.... which is a good thing. as we noted earlier, troika games should not be judged different simply cause some fanbois thought tim were bold nuff to dream big. apologists making excuses for troika failures and finding quality in toika games that they did not have simply cause they like that tim were trying to dream the impossible dream... bah. regardless, your apples and oranges comment is exemplary of tim-level obliviousness. to makes games in the Game Industry you is gonna need business-minded and managment trained folks to complete jobs in a timely and cost-efficient manner. every succesful game developer has such people... like josh. he was the guy that obsidian brought in to fix development organizational problems with nwn2. we spose that means that byNatS reasoning that must means that josh gots the creativity o sea kelp, right? HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for clearing that up. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> actually, your question reaffirms our point. if Gromnir, who gots 0 experience in industry, is fully aware of pressures related to making a living working in an industry so inextricably beholden to THE QUARTERLY REPORT, then how much less of an excuse does timmy have for being so oblivious and naive? HA! Good Fun!

our toaster wants the franchise? gives it a sledgehammer 'stead. the day our pc or laptop starts demanding equal rights is the day we go all psycho ted kaczynski style and lives in some shack out in woods and plans the end o' civilization. HA! Good Fun!

bull. load of bull. making games has always been 'bout making money. furthermore, there ain't nothing 'bout the present model that prevents a developer likes troika from making good games. for chrissakes people, is not like 10 years ago the govt. stopped giving out grants to make games... is not like publishers sudden realized that they were in business to makes money for investors/shareholders. draw some sorta conclusions 'bout industry 'cause of failure of one developer? bah. most simple explanation for troika inability to makes a good game in spite of 3 attempts were that they simply weren't a competent developer... but for some reason peoples avoids simple answer in favor of wacky notions 'bout dying art 'n such. troika failed. come up with whatever reasons you want to explain, but if troika can't stay in business, then they cannot make games, good or bad. perhaps timmy tells self that reason troika failed is 'cause he were trying to make good games in a world that just wouldn't let him, but that is bull, and anybody that belies such nonsense is full of it too. HA! Good Fun! ps the fact that troika failed is a good thing. all the competent developers from troika who were stuck making crappy games 'cause troika were bad at business, has now found jobs at places likes relic and obsidian and bioware... places where their talents can be utilized to makes games that will actually gets played. congrats... the system works.