Gromnir

"What you don't seem to realize is that I don't like the rules used in NWN2 at all." huh? why you assume that? we know that you don't like any game that don't let you use real modern weapons... even if those weapons is complete unreal in the crpg in question. *shrug* you gots your weird biases. regardless, your earlier criticisms 'bout people spending effort on builds were clearly misdirected and voiced from a position o' ignorance. whimsy choices not work so well... not so good for posting responses neither. HA! Good Fun!

"He on the other hand, had to install NWN2 first, and updated it to 1.10, THEN he installed MotB, and now all the MotB content that has text associated with it doesn't show up. For example, he can pick the Favoured Soul class, but it's nameless and doesn't have any information. New spells don't have names or descriptions either." Gromnir not have game, but there is repeated references to a hotfix(?) available at the bioboards that addresses missing text. ... found it. http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewt...8&forum=121 HA! Good Fun!

"Actually, I thought THIS was called AD&D. I don't even know what the hell I am playing!" really? well then, you has actually learned something new today. golly. "That's indicative of a broken system." very possibly, but that not change the fact that it is what it is. you wanna screw your eyes shut and pretend that any choice is worthwhile or even viable? be our guest. regardless, your delusions and protests not change fact that whimsical picking of feats, skills and classes is not a good way to approach motb character creation. why does people spend some time on builds? 'cause your whimsy approach is stoopid given the realities o' the system and fact that this is a CRPG. dm can't tailor the game to your choices. "No, but I'm sure sitting for hours before a game calculating which class brings what feats and skills and learning thick nerd books about rules that have no relevance in real life is a much more rewarding experience." a pnp ROLE-play character will offer potentially hundereds of hours o' gameplay. a weekly session o' rp once a week or even once a month... a character can last a good long time. but six months ago you spent 15 minutes rolling some lame numbers and got stuck playing a generic ad&d vanilla fighter... and for as long as that character survives the only thing you can possibly do to change character is to change his equipment. wow. talk about a deep role-play experience. "As I said: roll-play." yeah, 15 minutes o' rolling determines... everything. fantastic. Gromnir will takes 3e and its many faults compared to the ludicrous scenario offered by ad&d. roll stats and choose kit. *shrug* is there too much crap in d&d nowadays? sure. is axiomatic that the more options you add to a rule system, the more difficult it is to balance the system. there is too much crap. nevertheless, ad&d is hardly an attractive alternative for various practical and mechanical reasons AND given a choice 'tween too many choices and a handful o' worthless choices we thinks that most would choose the plethora o' options. and the bit 'bout it taking hours of reading and calculating to come up with a d&d character is so much hyperbole. takes minutes to come up with a viable character. for those that wanna optimize it can take hours, but to jump in and play takes no more than it did with ad&d. regardless, your initial point were silly and myopic... ignores reality of crpgs and system in question. HA! Good Fun!

hmmm for motb don't evokers and transmuters both have conjuration as their opposition school? specialization not requires that you take your extra spell from your specialized school. is a few feats that depend on your school o' specialization, but not many. for all practical purposes, there is very little difference 'tween an evoker and a transmuter. keep in mind that if you is into crafting, by having no caster with conjuration spells there is gonna be some certain items you cannot create. is no big deal... but something to consider. HA! Good Fun!

huh? if we is talking 'bout motb and other sp crpgs, then the dm is a crpg developer... is no mysterious elephants. if we is talking 'bout pnp (which Gromnir weren't,) then you still runs into the problem where Mr. Perfect monopolizes the action. if rest of party is not Mr. Perfects, they tends to get bored sitting back while dm drops elephants on mr. perfect... but again, this is a complete different issue than the one Gromnir were talking 'bout. HA! Good Fun!

side note: what Gromnir don't get, as far as character builds is concerned, is the folks who try to find the Perfect Warrior (or mage or whatever) to play through motb. maybe combat is tougher in motb than it were in nwn2, but these games is never gonna be made so as to cause undue frustration. a relative newcomer to d&d is still gonna be able to get through motb combats with his crappy build, so what advantage is there in building the perfect warrior? there is all kinds o' ultimate pvp builds we seen posted... and we just don't get the point of using such stuff in motb. such folks is only cheating selves. ... the hilarious part o' the scenario is when mr perfect warrior comes to board and then complains that motb were ssssssooooooo easy. well duh. you makes a build that exploits every d&d loophole so as to render unto utter desolation all enemies who stood in your way.... and then complain that game were too easy. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

ad&d were bass ackwards and retarded. kits were as bad as prcs and the rulez were a convoluted and counter-intuitive mass o' contradictions. if stoopidity = rp, then ad&d were indeed the system for real rp gamers... 'cause having all important character development choices happen only at level 1 enhanced rp. HA! as for just taking whatever feat or skill peaks your fancy... sure, you can do that, but such intentional wackiness don't result in a better rp experience. sadly d&d, (especially a crpg d&d game in which there is no genuine rp being done anyway,) is a game where the numbers matter. can you play a half-orc paladin/monk if you wish? sure. unfortunately, such a character is probably not gonna be particularly fun to play when you can't hit nothing in combat, and can't make any skills checks. combat and dialogues... both is highly dependent on numbers. wanna play 30 levels o' fighter is fine and dandy. take whatever feats and skills you want and you will still be good in combat... but 'cause of lousy skill selection chances are you won't be getting near as much from dialogues as some o' the people who worry over builds. what if you wanna Role-Play a character that can do more than simply cast spells or swing a sword? better consider the numbers, eh? heck, since the only thing that might be remotely considered rp in a single-player crpg is coming from dialogues, the genuine role-players is probably the ones who is gonna most worry over builds, 'cause w/o some forethought you may miss out on a great number and variety o' dialogues. is not like pnp where Gromnir's lack o' social skills is hardly a handicap. real live fellow players and a human dm means that we get as much out of an rp session as we put into it. sp crpg is not rp. you get put only so much as the developer allows... and 'cause o' balance and rulez issues, what you can potentially get out o' game is based 'pon a cold and hard numbers evaluation. welcome to the world o' sp crpgs. but then again, if willful stoopidity = role-play, then sure enough ad&d were supreme, and choose feats and skills and levels w/o forethought or considerations must result in a more genuine rp experience. HA! Good Fun!

(damn double posts) HA! Good Fun!

You know, that one sounds pretty fun. I'll have to try one out, all I need is to calculate what kind of Feats and Stats I should go for so that I don't gimp myself entirely in either arcane or martial matters. feats is the one problematic issue with this combo. sure, we gots all the skillz we could hope for, but we gotta takes skill focus: spellcraft & martial weapon prof to qualify for the 2 prcs... would take empower anyways, so that is no issue. gets skill focus concentration for free with ek... one less req to worry 'bout for asoc. probably wanna throw in a shield proficiency too... though that one is debatable. able learner is essential for Gromnir 'cause we is maxing skillz. we would get shield and martial weapon for free if we went traditional fighter/wiz/ek route, but this is a skills build. most o' your essential meta magic stuff you would have to wait on til you takes asoc levels... 'cause you gets loads o' good meta stuff for free with asoc. human gets most skills, but stoutheart halfling is gonna have a prettier character record sheet with better bonuses and stats. Gromnir am not a min/max stats guy so with spell casting prodigy and practiced spell caster feats we not feel any sting from starting with a 16 int or taking 4 levels o' rogue. str 12, dex 14(16), con 14, int 16, wis 12(10), chr 10. halfling stats is in parenthesis. not too worried 'bout str 'cause new feats allows you to eventually replace str with int modifier for bab. pretty much dump every available point into int... and make sure to takes tumble and umd. also, while saves is ok, they ain't great either. ek gets high fort. rogue gets high reflex. wiz gets high will. a 4/6/10 r/wiz/ek ends up pretty darn balanced, 'specialy if you go the halfling route with high dex. by the end o' motb you ain't gonna be particularly combat effective no more... but play through nwn2 and you ends up with 4 attacks and ability to cast 8th level wiz spells... not to mention access to virtually every useful skill in game. with motb you simply go 100% asoc and end up with a very powerful wizard who is having enough skills to take advantage o' just about any skill related dialogue check in game... but you does start to lag in the combat stuff. is not a pg build in the traditional sense, 'cause there is far better builds for arcane power and for combat efficacy, but this seems like a very nice build for taking advantage o' just about everything the game might have to offer. one serious drawback: you got no real room to add in crafting feats. gonna have to depend on your companions to do all the crafting stuff. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

thanks for the feedback. Gromnir will probably stick with rogue/cleric and hope that the red wizard's homunculus has adequate thiefy skills.... though a rogue/wizard/ek/asoc would be a skillz hound and we would not need to depend on homunculi. oh, and 'fore we forget again, anybody know how motb warlock imbue works? HA! Good Fun!

is no spoiler or secret that the motb red wizard companion has a homunculus that boasts some thiefy skills. such info has been mentioned in a couple previews. even so, am curious if the critter is up to the task o' replacing a genuine rogue. one would expect that the dc for trap spotting and disarming in an epic level campaign would be pretty damned high. does the homunculus adequate replace a dedicated rogue for the trap & lock pick duties? HA! Good Fun!

thanks for feedback... will stick with rogue/cleric combo if ASoC not add something specific... unless there ain't no joinable rogues in motb. Gromnir took rogue levels to boost skills other than trap finding and disarming. will go a different direction if no motb rogues. so, any motb rogues for a mostly good party? HA! Good Fun!

am not sure if we played same torment game. wisdom gave luck bonus (which boosted amost all rolls), xp bonus and had the most numerous and important dialogues... whole power o' belief stuff that were at core of game, and those were almost invariably wisdom checks. *shrug* however, let us not turn this into yet another thread where we debates ps:t strengths and weakness. Gromnir only brought up ps:t to clarify a query 'bout motb... 'cause this is a motb thread. got something to add 'bout motb? HA! Good Fun!

not paying attention again? sand didn't play yet, so you don't know squat. clarification: there were maybe 2 or 3 bluff situations worth noting in all of nwn2. most dialogue encounters were simply diplomacy encounters... but there were a few times when bluff were helpful... but for 2-3 situations it would be kinda silly to spend 23 ranks in bluff. am asking if motb makes skills other than diplomacy more useful than they was in nwn2. diplomacy were near essential in nwn2 for those who were interested in dialogues. bluff and intimidate? sw, hmmm. sounds like maybe obsidian went back to ps:t roots. ps:t were pre 3e... no skills. many ps:t dialogue branches were revealed to characters with high wisdom. not have spot or listen checks or some other plausible wisdom based skill check, 'cause no skills were in ps:t. heck, the entire game were pretty wisdom centric.... were the one indispensable stat. 'course now we got skills. by chance did you play a character with high wisdom such as a monk or cleric? am wondering if people who played mages were seeing numerous intelligence based options. developers o' ps:t really didn't try to balance wisdom v. other stats... am wondering if they does same in motb. HA! Good Fun!

all Gromnir does is work... hardly any time to play. nevertheless, will probably get this thing... eventually. got some Qs for eldar and others who has played. 1) how does warlock imbue item work? is doubtful that we play a warlock, but the spirit meter stuff and new resting rules make it more appealing. crafting is kinda a neato advantage for warlocks, but crafting feats still seem to be off-limits for warlocks post 1.10. 3 essential factors for warlock to imbue in p&p: a) umd o' sufficient magnitude b) necessary caster level c) crafting feat. no crafting feats? so, how does it work in motb? 2) is ASoC immediately available in motb? eldar suggested that ASoC had some rp applications in motb... and even though Gromnir loathes prcs we will maybe give ASoC a looksee. after a glance at the prerequisites it not seems as if ASoC is like shadow thief or neverwinter nine prcs from nwn2... not have some in-game requirement such as joining a guild or somesuch, but am gonna double-check anyways. 3) is there a rogue companion available in motb, and if not, how necessary is a rogue? unless the one-o'-many, or the spirit bear is a rogue, we not see no rogue companions. was not a big fan o' neeshka in nwn2, but we kept her in party til late in game for useful rogue skills. so, if Gromnir wants rogue skills in the party, does we need to take... or is rogues a waste o' space in motb, or... 4) for those who has played motb, what skills would you recommends to those who wish to maximize dialogues? how much ESSENTIAL skills integration into dialogues? there were a few encounters in nwn2 when Gromnir noticed that some skill check other than diplomacy were made... but not many were noteworthy. ... feedback and insight would be appreciated. anyone? anyone? HA! Good Fun!

What's wrong with that? the official epic rules kills continued usefulness of melee classes. why take levels o' fighter or even monk if you not get any better bab or more attacks than you would by taking archmage or somesuch? 'course now we gots a novel kinda argument that suggests that continued bab progression makes the taking levels o' melee... compulsory. 'cause with 40 levels the gap ' 'tween caster and melee classes becomes prohibitively great. is some truth to argument if you compares 40 levels o' wizard to 40 levels o' fighter, and then set up an encounter that forces the wizard to fire his crossbow at an Epic Dragon. ... epic rules in d&d is stoopid and broken, and while obsidian approach is maybe less broken than wotc standard epic rules, the munchkins who has seen their super-caster builds gets busted should have sand support, 'cause obsidian clearly abandoned da rulez. we all know how sand feels 'bout deviation from rulez. honestly, Gromnir has not looked close at numbers... 'caues we generally dislikes the d&d Mechanics beyond levels 12-15. clever prc combos and equipment configurations determine outcomes of encounter before they happen... might as well leave your dice at home. epic is already a big stinking steamy pile in our estimation, so am not particularly concerned if obsidian or wotc version gets some gold star for managing to be the more terrible incarnation. HA! Good Fun!

fo2 ai were retarded... which is one reason that bis were gonna give the player control of npcs in bg3. even the slow learners at bis knew that a d&d party based game has gotta give the player control... bis and obsidian developers has specific noted that they would never makes a d&d game w/o player control. not care if you feel that the party leader situation for dialogues is feeling silly. is kinda obvious that without such a model you got some serious balance issues resulting. am all for adding more npc independence during non-combat encounters (and even infrequent during combat,) but the fo2 crap just ain't gonna happen again from obsidian. even the obsinaties has learned and moved forward. HA! Good Fun!

why? 'cause of balance concerns. in d&d you plays a single character. you play a character with crappy int or terrible chr and you is gonna pay the price... though wotc did a terrible job balancing usefulness of attributes in any case. still, with a competent dm, there is gonna be some disadvantage to having low int or chr in pnp d&d. in a crpg in which you control a party with no designated leader, chr and int becomes serious dump candidates... lower 'em to basement and it not gonna hurt the Party. dumbest character in world still gets at least 1 skill point per level. with a pool of even 6 characters you can be pretty damned sure that at least one character is gonna be maxed in every useful skill. and as for communication, you might as well make the paladin or sorcerer do all the diplomatic stuff 'cause they need charisma already. why makes your dwarf fighter have an int or chr 'bove 5? maybe for some feat or prc prereqs, but otherwise... d&d is a squad based tactical combat game. in pnp, 'round which the rulez is balanced, you control a single character. in a party-based crpg you controls a full squad, and typically have a recruiting pool from which to draw as well. why not let your crappy dwarf fighter with the 1 chr and 3 int avoid all the talking? for balance... so that there is some value to be taking points of int or chr, and commensurate cost if one chooses to tank such stats. HA! Good Fun!

"When a game, such as PS:T, tries to rise above its third class standing, a number of people in the gaming community pillory the effort as

has to do with the numbers and not tactics of players... which is the problem. and yes, a kobold with a spear can very easily slay a 1-3 level character with a single critical hit... as you is quite aware. dms is forced to cheat to keep 1-3 level players alive. once players get to level 4 or so it ain't such a struggle no more. clearly there is some flaws in the system. even if sand honestly believes that levels 1-3 is ok, the fact that those levels is much more dangerous than levels 4+ should be obvious to anybody that there is a problem with the system. HA! Good Fun!

cr guidelines don't help too much 'cause of simple problem that weakest opponents gots weapons capable of doing criticals. weakest and most worthless kobold adversary with spear is still capable of killing you with a single blow... but starting at level 3 or 4 is helpful... and simply cheating as a dm is most common scenario. HA! Good Fun!

oh, well, sure enough once people is down and unconscious they is complete safe... and trying to heal 'em with heal skill not makes you a target or nothing neither, right? how many heal spells does average level 1 cleric got? and Gromnir is talking 'bout sub-level 1 cr goblins for chrissakes. "Again, adventuring is DANGEROUS." it can be, depending on the dm... but more important is the fact that d&d is disproportionately dangerous at levels 1-3... if you use d&d guidelines for crs. honestly, you is being silly. HA! Good Fun!

you is not being rational. surprise! most weapons critical on a 20... some on a 19 and 20. every melee attack from a lowly goblin with a spear carries with it a 5% o' insta-kill? a dm creates 4 encounters with 3-4 goblins and you almost guarantee that somebody in sand's party is gonna die. ... gets annoying for everybody when rolling up a new character becomes a forgone conclusion for 1-2 people during each session... regardless of how smart they play... which is why all 3e d&d dms cheat. HA! Good Fun!

not matter how smarty or careful you is at level 1-3; you can die... fast... 'less the dm cheats, and all dms cheat to help keep d&d 3e characters alive until 3-4th level. spell casters has almost no spells, and other characters is also limited in their repertoire o' combat abilities. those means to protect self from insta-kills that is available to higher level players is not an option for 1-3. if you enter combat (and d&d is a squad-based tactical combat simulator, so combat is almost inevitable,) then critical hits 'n such make for pretty common insta-death nonsense. d&d at high levels is equally terrible. might as well throw 'way the dice. look at character record sheets and at a glance you can predict outcomes of virtually any encounter... pretty much all combat outcomes is predetermined. 4-12 is d&d sweet spot. HA! Good Fun!

"Yeah, I read through the changes that were posted (I had not before my first post). Instead of an Axe Master Prestige Class (example)...you'll just pick feats in that direction. Feats atop of feats atop of feats. It's the same thing, masked under a veil, to sell more books and make $$$." 'cause of pre-reqs, two players who wanna take red wizard prc is gonna have very similar character builds... prcs actually decrease customization as 'posed to a relative free feat choice format. end up with same old kit nonsense of past. ... 'course this raises another issue: all feats is not created equal. sean k. at least tried to come up with a system for giving some kinda cost range for feats, no? the more d&d depends on feat allocation for customization, the greater attention wotc must devote to making sure feats is better balanced. HA! Good Fun!