Gromnir

"You can stay on strawman argument" clearly alan not going for irony, 'specially after your recent criticism o' Gromnir regarding irony... which perhaps makes more/less ironic. *shrug* didn't get any further. HA! Good Fun!

if vinnie charges $10, am doubting you see any complaints. sure, the graphics will still be fugly and the writing will be pedestrian, but what do you expect for $10, right? 'course, this is far different reasoning than we see 'bove, no? reduced price makes acceptable that graphics is fugly and writing is pedestrian. from such a perspective it ain't lack o' developer resources that makes okie dokie, but the pricing. HA! Good Fun! ps keep in mind that last we heard, steam were a no-go for aod. gotta go traditional disk route? if so, some of aod pricing is fixed... am recalling developers telling us that for a typical game, actual development is less than half total budget. package and distribution alone is probable more than 1/2 budget... which is why small developers gotta partner up with publishers who gots resources necessary for such stuff. in absence o' digital-download you should expect a substantial price tag.

that makes sense. is aod gonna be $10 or 1/5 the cost of dragon age? am perfectly willing to give lower standard to aod if they is charging considerable reduced purchase price. is why we compared cars o' similar price... 'cause most pcrpgs is released with same or similar price, regardless of quality. will aod be different? HA! Good Fun!

"No one expects technically cutting edge graphics, because a) It's not a priority to people following this game" fine... good. 'course some of the folks not concerned 'bout aod graphics has slammed graphics in other games with superior graphics. is fair? if graphics ain't important, then there should be some honesty from folks that they were a) talking out their arse when they complained 'bout other games, or b) they is cutting aod slack for no good reason. how on earth does obstacles faced by developer make game more or less enjoyable? " b) There's no way to do it on a 0 budget, or even on a huge budget is forementioned priorities are also fulfilled." am gonna call bs on this. lack o' budget ain't a worthy excuse. give Bob $1000 to develop a game. Bob charges typical pc crpg price. why on earth does Bob's Game get a different standard 'cause of his budget? Gromnir not Care 'bout Bob's budget or his difficulties... not when we is evaluating the quality o' the game. Graphics don't matter? fine. is okay. 'course, there is people arguing that aodf graphics is great (HA!) or they has slammed other, better games for graphic shortcomings while giving aod a pass. is manifestly unfair. HA! Good Fun!

Would the game still be 'good' if I edited out the Iron Tower splash screen and dropped a Bioware or Bethesda one in there? finally, somebody who is talking sense. am not certain how we got to point where it is considered odd that a similar priced games should be judged on merits rather than pathos. HA! Good Fun!

Why would someone hold World of Goo up to the same standards as Half-Life 2? That's ridiculous, you expect both of them to work and be fun, but that's about it. you people is bass ackwards. buy a car. probably you compare multiple cars in same/similar price range that fulfill certain requirements/needs. when has you Evar considered the working conditions in auto plant, or the resources a car maker has available to 'em. you want the "best" car for your money, and it not make a whole heck of a lot of difference that auto X were a start-up company and company Y were established. in point o' fact, you is probable more likely to give your car purchase dollar to the established co. with the good rep as 'posed to some new venture. but games is different? if aod were a car, you would expect it to either be Better than similar competition, or sold at a reduced price, no? lack o' reputation decreases desirability and the car manufacturer gotta do something to sweeten deal. even so, you folks is doing backwards... 'cause developer gots less resources and experience you is willing to consider their work "good" even if it not measure up to the competition... which is complete nuts. is disposable income, so you can do with it what you will, but Gromnir ain't gonna treat vinnie like a special olympics participant... deserves a hug just for running. iron tower is developing a commercial game, and if is priced similar to competition, then it should be judged same... on the merits and not based on sympathy. iwd:how were crap. turns out that there were some serious resource limitations that contributed to iwd:how crappiness. did game sudden become better 'cause Gromnir discovered that bis didn't commit necessary resources? sure, we felt sympathy for the developers, but our gameplaying experience were not improved 'cause we knew that resources were inadequate. one o' the big complaints 'bout how were its cost... were near full-game price, but were short and terrible. short and terrible at half-price is one thing, but short and terrible at full price is ridiculous. 'course you folks wanna turn typical consumer reasoning upside down, so perhaps you were mystified by the complaints directed at how. HA! Good Fun!

"So what you're saying is that if the Billionaire didn't pony up the money, and say, matched what the paupers donated, you'd be disappointed in the billionaire because you were, say, expecting a lot more from him?" talk 'bout unclear on the concept. 1) aod is NOT a charity. is not 'bout intentions or good will or warm fuzzy. aod is a Luxury Item... is a game being made for commercial reasons and being sold to people with disposable income. analogize to charity? HA! fine. vinnie and aod is analogous to a charity case... That at least makes some sense as to why vinnie and aod gets some sorta special break. 2) $10 dollars spends same, no matter where you get it from. Gromnir is on the board of a non-profit organization that provides free and low cost medical and counseling services. a $10 donation from Bill Gates goes just as far in paying our electric bill as does $10 from the guy standing on street corner waving his "Open House" banner in +100 degree heat. the usefulness o' the donation not change one bit relative to the donor's means. expectations got Zero to do with the end value o' the donation. it was a stoopid analogy... honest. am glad you is sticking with it. HA! Good Fun!

if Gromnir is the charity, depending on money, we would rather have 1 billionaire donate a million bucks than 100 paupers donate $10 apiece. the $10 may be more Meaningful from perspective of getting into heaven, but ask anybody who runs a charity if they want 100 paupers with $10 or 1 billionaire with 1 million. this is not a touchy-feely issue, and if alan wants to create ridiculous analogies that ain't analogous, that is fine... but we not gotta buy into the mularkey. aod is a commercial product. am not caring if the guy who built our toaster oven is a billionaire or unemployed... am only concerned 'bout how it works. argue that the unemployed guy's toaster oven is "better" simply 'cause it were crafted by somebody from more distressed background or limited means? find out tomorrow that you got a serious and potential fatal disease. does you go to some unemployed doctor to give him a chance... give him a break? or does you find the best damned doctor you can afford, regardless of race, color, creed, national origin etc. ? you wanna compare value of services and goods? gots nothing whatsoever to do with paupers and billionaires donating cash. you wanna stand at finish line and give vinnie a big hug for running a good race? great. that is what they does at special olympics, and it is a genuinely inspiring thing to watch. nevertheless, you tell us that Bill Stewart, the 15 year old with down syndrome who ran 100m in 25 seconds is a great runner and we will call you a liar. try not to confuse yourselves with nonsense morality issues that got no place in this discussion. HA! Good Fun!

that was Gromnir's point. redux: "fact that you not expect much of art is hardly a reason for the rest of us to give 'em a free pass neither. is this gonna be a commercial release? if so, then why they get some sorta reduced standard? has iron tower announced discounted pricing 'cause none o 'em is artistic inclined? because the art is fugly, they better do the other stuff better... and so far we ain't seen better from the writing neither. give 'em lower standard on writing too 'cause vinnie ain't a writer?" level o' expectation not change the quality or lack o' quality o' a game. nevertheless, 'cause vinnie gots no resume he gets a pass on graphics and writing and what else? for the typical commercial product, if some newb wants to break into an established market, he gotta do better or cheaper. is aod gonna be cheaper? if not... *shrug*. So why is games different? why is aod different? why does reduced expectations result in paradox o' higher anticipation? wouldn't make sense if we were talking 'bout toaster ovens or cars, but somehow games is different? fugly is fugly no matter if is iron tower or obsidian. hackneyed writing is no more or less hackneyed 'cause avellone did as 'posed to vinnie. am fully recognizing that there is a differing level o' expectation, but we ain't talking 'bout watching your son play tee-ball... or whatever is the euro-equivalent. this ain't the special olympics neither. expectation shouldn't make no difference when deciding good v. bad of a commercial product. wanna give vinnie a special olympics medal for his efforts? fine, but don't say "good" 'less it is. "Do you hold the unemployed man by the same standards as the billionaire?" yes. is that a trick question? HA! Good Fun!

battlezone and warhammer: dark omens were excellent games that some people has heard of, but virtual nobody played. HA! Good Fun!

saying that the graphics not bother you is not the same thing as Gromnir is talking 'bout. personally, graphics is one o' the less important factors for Gromnir, but that not change fact that we can see that aod graphics... suck. if bis or bio made a game and graphics looked like aod's, there would be a considerable 'mount o' criticism directed their way. likewise, we has seen bio, bis and troika promise similar stuff to what iron tower promises... so why the optimism for iron tower and the caution for bio, bis and troika? vinnie's lack of experience makes him more believable? 'course we gotta admit that some small segment o' fans genuine believe anything developers says during development, and even defend those developers post release when they fails to deliver on promises. am suspecting it gots something to do with emotional investment, but that is just a guess. Gromnir has noted previous that real innovation is gonna probable come from small/new indie developer with a gambler mentality. what is the motivation for an established developer to break formula when the formula would appear to be so successful. is folks like iron tower, folks who cannot compete with big developers in terms o' production values, who is gonna have to be innovative to set selves apart. nevertheless, what has iron tower done to set selves apart so far? posted fugly screenies, revealed some amateurish writing, and made promises. be as enthusiastic or optimistic as you wish to be, but be honest 'bout it at least. btw, obsidian is an indie developer... and so was bio up til recent. am not sure if people is using the term correct. HA! Good Fun!

"Is there some level of expectation we're meant to have for all commercial projects, or for indie projects, that I am 'cutting a break' from?" if such a standard does exist, it should be same for all developers... and we ain't seeing that. "moan" 'bout the art? *chuckle* "good enough" clear is different for aod than it is for other games... am not sure why. am even more concerned that people not seem to realize that they is applying a different standard. HA! Good Fun!

"Feel free to moan about the graphics again, but it looks good enough for me, technically speaking. Art direction is nothing to write home about, but (this might be completely wrong) nobody on the team strikes me as particularly artistically oriented, so it's hard to expect anything else. " fact that you not expect much of art is hardly a reason for the rest of us to give 'em a free pass neither. is this gonna be a commercial release? if so, then why they get some sorta reduced standard? has iron tower announced discounted pricing 'cause none o 'em is artistic inclined? because the art is fugly, they better do the other stuff better... and so far we ain't seen better from the writing neither. give 'em lower standard on writing too 'cause vinnie ain't a writer? am not seeing why folks is cutting aod a break. if bioware were releasing similar screenies and making exact same claims, you folks would be slaughtering 'em... but 'cause it is an indie project spawned by codex it is Totally Awesome. *snort* am gonna wait til we sees more than bad writing and some uninspired and outdated graphics before we get excited... 'cause otherwise all we got is same promises such as we has heard from a dozen different developers over the years... developers who had better resources. 1/2 the game with 2x the pretension? HA! not impressed... yet. maybe is the indie kewl factor, or maybe is codexian predisposition to believe vinnie, but so far the enthusiasm in this thread is hardly proportional to the released material we seen so far. on the positive side, is a relative small and homogenized group posting at iron tower forums... makes easier for developers to consider fan feedback. is one o' the few advantages o' being relative nobodies... ain't no flood o' diverse and conflicting requests with which to contend. have seen some developers make the mistake o' trying to honest cater to the fans... end up with mediocrity. make a game that satisfies everybody will necessarily be incapable o' genuinely impressing anybody. HA! Good Fun!

aod is schrodinger's cat. some small number o' people will spend next year or two in ardent debate over the philosophical implications o' aod impact... or non-impact. 'course, at the end o' the day, regardless o' the debate, you still end up with a dead cat in a box. no 'mount o' gaming pretension is gonna be able to breathe life into the grisly gato. 'course, given two years o' emotional investment, some folks is gonna look at vinnie's mummified feline cadaver, and declare it "Teh Best Kat Evar!" folks with no emotional ties to aod is probable never gonna hear of the indie release o' a dated looking game with terrible qa, or they will be baffled by the fanatics who chose to deify a dead cat... in a box. please, think of the cat. take multi-years and uncountable message board posts to kill a cat? nobody every shows no concern for the senseless killings of schrodinger's cat. HA! Good Fun!

am thinking that the fact that skills were unfathomable worked in bethesda's favor. first time we played through, Gromnir were able to boost virtual every skill to 100 without trying hard. the problem is that we couldn't see much improvement past some seemingly unrecognized point. was left with a vague impression that skills weren't working right, but it were difficult to tell how or why. ultimately we were able to enjoy game in part 'cause the busted mechanics were hidden from view. a tb game with hexes it is easier to see and compare how mechanics is playing out in-game. with fov 3 perspective Gromnir were left with impression that something were wrong with fo skills without being able to clear identify where and when the problems occurred. obsidian faces tougher task. now that busted mechanics is a Known, can the developers simply use same prestidigitation to fool people into thinking that dumping points into small guns past X% is meaningful and useful? skills were unfathomable, now they is ineffable? HA! Good Fun! HA! Good Fun!

"He didn't have a solution. To be fair, he simply said that they were trying a mod that made stimpacks heal over time rather than instantaneously. Kind of like pots in Diablo. To be even more fair, he came clean and said some folks really didn't like it." if bringing up were s'posed to show that Gromnir's resource argument were invalid, then am not seeing point. end up back to where we were when Gromnir suggested that a genuine fix would take resources. "Even without changing the fast travel system at all you can't travel during fights or from inside dungeons" see aristes' comments. is no solution. stockpile at a convenient location and carry max needed. only the casual gamer is affected, 'cause the guy who is exploiting has easy alternatives that has no cost save minor annoyance factor. HA! Good Fun!

so, what is limit in inventory that would solve problem? with insta-travel it is very easy to re-stock. spam use of stims, insta-travel back to your stash. restock. repeat. you is talking 'bout some kinda system that protects those who exploit the system... protect from selves? what makes you think they won't use insta-travel exploit to circumvent limited stock. hell, the first thing the exploiter can do when you get to new area is to take a few insta-travel trips to create a stims supply depo. no doubt is other ways 'round your inventory limit. is not a practical solution. is not a solution that genuine needs a solution, but even if it were, weight and inventory limits won't fix. somebody said they not like arbitrary rules... but impose an arbitrary weight or arbitrary inventory limit is ok? am not recalling the sawyer solution you mentioned earlier... perhaps is better than suggestions we is seeing. HA! Good Fun!

how can you tell Gromnir is worked up? 'cause we tel kel that he is being foolish? HA! kel uses sandpaper 'stead o' toilet paper, 'cause they both is paper. is funny... am enjoying the funny. HA! Good Fun!

1) am disagreeing that the mods exist, 'cause so far the solutions suggested... suck. the mods is no genuine improvement over status quo. add weight or some crude limit on stims is not genuine solutions. a real solution will take time and resources to implement and test. why waste on minutiae? 2) possibility for ammo and stim depleting encounters should exist via travel. random encounters that actual serve to boost 1007 and exp is no help neither. am not caring how implemented, but there has got to be some cost attached to travel, otherwise weight and carrying capacity is more of a joke than a serious balance method. HA! Good Fun!

is a matter of priorities. stimpacks is relative minor for Gromnir. am not a fan of fact that they fix crippled status, but other than that... *shrug* from the moment fo:nv were announced we has seen people asking obsidian 'bout the "stimpack problem." is no more obscure than vats and skills. that being said, am not seeing that obsidians addressing stims is a particular high priority. you can bring anything to the attention o' the obsidians, but always keep in mind that getting what you want is God's curse. fix stims necessarily means that developers ain't working on some other aspect. so, what is you willing to give up to get fixed stims... recognizing that we ain't seen no unanimous notion as to how to fix 'em in any event? btw, to fix stims we is willing to throw doctor + first aid (and any other fo1 fo2 skills resurrection requests) on the pyre. "You can say the weight stuff is a joke for weapons and armor as well, then." yes. is there a question? balance through weight, particularly when you got insta-travel, is nothing but a joke. add weight for flavor or "realism" or ambiance or immersion (HA!) but try to sell us on balance... HA! Good Fun!

The person who does barely anything should have a much harder time than the person who does it all. why? and even if it is, how much harder should it be? perhaps maybe you should look at in the reverse... game is only sooooo easy 'cause you chose to waste so much time on game. why complain 'bout ease? simply do less or don't use the stimpacks if you do not wish to use 'em. for folks who plays critical path there probably don't seem like an overabundance o' stims, and for folks like you and Gromnir, well, we can simply choose to show a little restraint. reasoning works equal as well if burden is placed on the hardcore fanatic as 'posed to the casual gamer. or, you could put in a mechanic that makes stims less useful as you use more of 'em... in any event, the weight stuff is a joke. HA! Good Fun! ps am in agreement with aristes that this is a relative non factor. adjust vats and work on skills progression... stims is minor in comparison.

Maybe grow some balls as a designer and say "You can't beat this game if you refuse to level up and talk to anybody" Lower the rate of stimpacks in randomized loot to a more reasonable level, handplace the majority of found stimpacks in the world, and have a steady (yet expensive) supply of them come into shops in case the player does run out. Balance the gameplay so that the player doesn't NEED them if they're playing carefully. Adding weight to them DOES add something. It means the player can't hoarde a million healing items and become invincible. It means that players that choose to have extra strength get an added benefit. But yeah, god forbid someone who gimps their character in a specific way gets annoyed by the consequences of their decision. what bs. add weight does nothing. 'stead of hording in pack, you horde in mailbox or locker or wherever. hoarding ain't prevented. occasionally have to trek back to location X via insta travel? big deal. is a dumb solution that solves nothing... should be obvious to anybody by now. am fine with reducing number of stimpacks available, but again, is a balance issue trying to figure out number necessary for those who wish to do critical path only. what of person who does critical path and only a couple side-quests? what of person who does all? again, like money, is very difficult to find an appropriate number or rate o' availability. our suggestion avoids weight nonsense or availability and instead focuses on use. HA! Good Fun!

so... what is problem with fallout 3 stimpacks? too numerous? ... stimpack problem is similar to money problem... though solutions is may be different. gotta make money or stimpacks plentiful enough for folks who does critical path. problem occurs with a big open world likes fo3... makes real easy for folks to accumulate ridiculous quantities of stimpacks and 1007. so how does developers balance? reduce availability o' stimpacks and does you still have 'nuff for critical path players? add weight to stimpacks is simply a retarded notion and folks should feel embarrassed to suggest as it not solve anything and potentially only adds a small annoyance factor to some players' game experience. haven't read the last +10 pages, so maybe has already been suggested, but as much as Gromnir loathes the spectre of reality in games, you can use to limit stimpack abuse. Many drugs loose efficacy as you takes more. the thing is, the more you take, the more you need... is not addiction so much as it has something to do with liver metabolizing the stuff. make stimpacks similar? more you take, the increasingly less effective they become. take more than 1 stimpack during some chosen length o' time, and you reduce their efficacy overall. the more stimpacks you use, the less they work. has probably already been suggested, and no doubt there is obstacles. seems to make sense to Gromnir HA! Good Fun!

So is the Old Owl Well section of the game, must of picked up 150,000+ in items and cash so picked up the armor after taking the SD level. am recalling that for our cleric/monk/sacred fist we enchanted ordinary clothes. makes some +5 clothes with multiple elemental resistances that not got no dex penalty. Gromnir chose clothes to protect monk abilities, but it also makes sense for characters with ridiculous high dex. there is no max dex for clothes. HA! Good Fun! Mainly purchased it for the "free" weapon finesse feat since I plan to use many, many two-handed feats or you could take the weapon finesse feat through level-up and skip the ultimately less useful armour. just a thought. HA! Good Fun! I was under the impression I should get all of my feats ASAP, before they become useless, underpowered, too late in the campaign to be useful, and now you bring armor into it???? actually, you brought armour into the equation. Gromnir would ever build his character based on feats received through magic items... particularly if we is planning to use character in motb. if you is building a high dex character who you wish to be combat effective, it makes sense to get weapon finesse... but depend on armour to get it? *snort* HA! Good Fun! Why not seems like a good idea to me, why waste a feat that is needed if you can get it through other means? I can rely on buff for protection anyway, don't plan to do much toe to toe combat. Hit n run seems to go well with this particular character build no? stuck with crappy armour 'cause it provides a necessary feat to make your character work. what is likelihood of finding better armour or being able to make better armour? high? near 100%. nevertheless, you stick with crap armour 'cause you need feat. gonna keep armour if you play motb? sure, you can make armour enchanted up to +8, but you is gonna stick with armour 'cause you need weapon finesse. what level is you when you take prestige class, has 'nuff money, and can access deekin's inventory anyways? you waiting for 7 or 8 levels to finally get weapons finesse for your dex based combatant? okie dokie. is silly on multiple levels... might as well tell us that your character concept relies on wielding the sword o' gith. 21337's falchion issue for motb makes sense. is patent ridiculous that some character concepts is only workable with certain equipment. you got a character that is based on doing damage through crits... but virtual every opponent in motb is immune to crits. if you not take falchion, you gotta accept playing gimped... but the weapon finesse ain't same thing. is not that kel can't get weapon finesse. is instead that he thinks he is getting for free. 'course, truth is that he is still paying. you get 7 or 8 feats in oc. 'stead o' using 1 feat to pay for weapon finesse you is willing to keeps relative crap armour that probable won't be available to you til end of first 1/3 of game anyways. not make much sense to us... multiple levels. HA! Good Fun!

So is the Old Owl Well section of the game, must of picked up 150,000+ in items and cash so picked up the armor after taking the SD level. am recalling that for our cleric/monk/sacred fist we enchanted ordinary clothes. makes some +5 clothes with multiple elemental resistances that not got no dex penalty. Gromnir chose clothes to protect monk abilities, but it also makes sense for characters with ridiculous high dex. there is no max dex for clothes. HA! Good Fun! Mainly purchased it for the "free" weapon finesse feat since I plan to use many, many two-handed feats or you could take the weapon finesse feat through level-up and skip the ultimately less useful armour. just a thought. HA! Good Fun! I was under the impression I should get all of my feats ASAP, before they become useless, underpowered, too late in the campaign to be useful, and now you bring armor into it???? actually, you brought armour into the equation. Gromnir would ever build his character based on feats received through magic items... particularly if we is planning to use character in motb. if you is building a high dex character who you wish to be combat effective, it makes sense to get weapon finesse... but depend on armour to get it? *snort* HA! Good Fun!