Gromnir

your mistaken inference ain't our problem... and as we note before, what is the point? does make difference? and yeah, you been spending too much time at codex if you feel unnecessary need to correct w/o actual having a point. but to stay on-topic... aod actually looks like a marginal interesting fan-made game or low-budget indie project. am simply not seeing cause for over-the-top enthusiasm. "AoD *has* the potential to be one of the better RPG's released in the past few years." huh? if vol or vis said that they were making aod and over past number of years had displayed same dialogue and screenies as we see from iron tower, we would be heartily impressed. if we saw same dialogue and screenies released by obsidian or bioware as pre-release material for one of their games we would be somewhat dismissive. so how should we react to iron tower? is more like a vol mod or a genuine game from a legit developer? am s'posing that if game is priced similar to offerings from atari or ea we should probably judge relative to similarly priced commercial products. HA! Good Fun!

you gotta point 'bout low magic or is you just making an observation? arcanum is a steampunk fantasy game with fo pretensions made by fo developers. fail. aod is a low magic fantasy game with fo pretensions made by fo fans. optimistic? arcanum were crap. buggy. worse than the bugs were fact that it were dull. forgettable characters and mundane locations. there is a reason why arcanum npcs never shows up on any of those Best CRPG NPC lists you sees at virtual every game mag site. is 'cause arcanum story and characters were worse than bad... they were forgettable. tedious quests. bad writing. horrible balance. arcanum were far more interesting previous to actual playing, 'cause the novelty o' the setting and the Potential o' the game were its best features. never managed to live up to potential and kewl setting only held interest for first few hours of play. aod setting not near as kewl as arcanum, and perceived potential not quite seem to reach arcanum levels neither as the developers not got fallout pedigree. HA! Good Fun!

AoD *has* the potential to be one of the better RPG's released in the past few years. wrong word got stressed. aod has "potential"... which can be said of every game that ain't actually been released. am not sure what you has heard from aod developers that sounds marked different than the troika or obsidian or bio developers who promised real choices and consequences. sounds like many of same promises we has heard before... but with understandably less impressive production values. also, from what we has read, we thinks that developers is gonna be in for a rude awakening when they discover that having lots o' choices not result in spontaneous generation of compelling dialogue and engaging story. somebody want a low-magic fantasy game that kinda plays like fallout? arcanum were actually built by folks who worked on fallout... and it kinda sucked. am not expecting aod developers to do much better. HA! Good Fun!

Yes: me. Reading the dialogue in the "choices and consequences" thread, what I see is uninspired quest design and puke-inducing infodump dialogues. It's not as immersion breaking and just right down horrific as say Fallout 3's writing is (Not ALL of Fallout 3 is this bad... just a large part of it is). As long as tyhe writing is "good" I'll be happy. The huge amounts of Choice and Consequences, many many different ways to approach quest, NO FEDEX

"The Fallout setting is supposed to be pulpy, and that can be done with a more sensible style and wit than Fallout 2 managed." you know, the Faithful likes to mentions the influence o' german expressionist movies on fallout setting... but somehow the trashy and campy b-movie sci-fi stuff from the 50's seems to gets forgotten. "sensible" and "wit" may not be best ways to describe Them! or The Brain that wouldn't Die. Gromnir actual ain't a fan o' Monty-Python, but am gonna have to observe that there is more than a little tongue-in-cheek with fo setting that kinda goes beyond "wit" and "sensible." Camp can be witty, but it sure as heck ain't sensible. what genuine mystified Gromnir were the faithful complaining 'bout the Look o' fo3 stuff such as power armour and architecture n' such. honestly, fo3 does a much better job o' achieving the art deco look that were partial inspired by the german expressionists. goes to nma and codex and you will hears 'em talk 'bout Metropolis and Nosferatu. watch Metroplis and then ask if fo3 power armour or fo1 power armour would "fit" in a Fritz Lang film. am also thinking that road warrior had more than a little influence... and am not sure if "wit" and "sensible" is the best words to describe that franchise. regardless, Gromnir wouldn't mind if developers took selves less serious in recognition o' the setting's roots... Devil Girl from Mars and Reptillicus. 'course, we don't mind a more serious approach, but we would have to be woeful ignorant to suggest that silly humor is inappropriate in fo. HA! Good Fun!

I love Fallout 2's humor, sadly missing in Fallout 3. Now that Obsidian is doing Vegas, perhaps they can bring that humor back. dunno. lead developer has expressed some conflicting views on game humor... particularity the fo2 kinda humor. also, as you note, much o' the fo2 brand o' humor were missing from fo3, and that means the largest group o' current fo fans probable don't get the fo funny. and keep in mind that the Faithful still criticize fo2's humor as something approaching sacrilege. personally, we would loves to see some humor directed at the fans... throw in a furry, talking deathclaw dual-wielding desert eagles... have her explain her surefire, no-lose gambling strategy while lamenting that she can't get access to any casinos... drive away in a toyota prius with 1950's styling. HA! Good Fun!

if you say so. to Gromnir it looks like you is arguing flinstones setting... mammoths and brontosaurus in flinstones. btw, the audi wouldn't o' bothered us... though we thinks a delorean woulda been more amusing. HA! Good Fun!

the setting is camp. is dark-humor camp, but is still camp. is a bit like complaining that the chainsaw wielded by ash williams is actually a discontinued husquvarna model that would not be available for sale in your average late 80'/early 90's megamart. *shrug* nevertheless, it does seem that such stuff is important to folks. am personally not understanding it, but that ultra-nerd thing is no doubt a quality shared by more than a few o' the developers, so you probable got a good shot at finding a sympathetic obstinate or two. HA! Good Fun!

... have been using firearms since before Gromnir were kindergarten aged. am having a nice karabiner 98k, so am guessing that some might call us a gun nut o' sorts. that being said, in fo we were concerned with damage, range and ap costs. historical accuracy o' included weapons never gained our notice. is like arguing spears v. spear & shield with krazy. ultimately it not mean squat. HA! Good Fun!

has always bothered Gromnir that developers keeps saying such stuff as does grizz. a sp cprg will always does a pi55-poor job of emulating pnp rpgs. no matter how much you thinks character and story is the player's, it ain't. you only got options made available by designer/developer and story unfolds as the writer chooses. even if the player has multiple choices, you still end up following paths created by the writers. in pnp rpgs you not need some fantabulous story, 'cause majority o' story is being created by yourself and fellow players... is a cooperative and fluid approach to storytelling that is not possible to emulate via a single-person crpg. it is ironic that crpgs is best at emulating non-role playing elements o' the rpg genre... is why developers spend so much time on combat and rules mechanics. there is a game that emulates pnp rpg feeling: nwn played mp with a dm. HA! Good Fun!

I guess I found the problem. If you can really think Baldur's Gate II's design is non-linear, which simply consists of the linear main plot and some mostly unrelated sub-quests, then, Ockham's razor tells me that you cannot have understood the points I and, probably, Aristes have discussed in these threads, especially related with design philosophy of Jefferson. This also explains why you are happy with rather simplistic a conclusion that nonlinearity is "illusion." I thought you were simplifying my point only for winning the debates but it turns out that you haven't understood the design philosophy behind Jefferson and probably even Fallout, which is intrinsically different from that of Baldur's Gate II. IIRC, J.E. Sawyer wondered how many of Black Isle designers understood the true meaning of the reputation system of Jefferson, so, this is not unnatural, I think. However, we all agree that system is very complex and it is hard to be realized at least in its original shape. I'm simply interested in what conclusion J.E. Sawyer has reached after these years. 1) "If you can really think Baldur's Gate II's design is non-linear," keep telling you that non-linear is an illusion. nevertheless, yeah, the unrelated side-quests is probable the main method o' creating illusion o' freedom in a game that has a compelling critical path story... 'cause you ain't gonna get compelling critical path story w/o linearity. the writer needs to know where story is going. am thinking that you ain't quite grasped some o' the basic concepts at work here and that is limiting our discussion. 2) "you haven't understood the design philosophy behind Jefferson and probably even Fallout, which is intrinsically different from that of Baldur's Gate II." you really ain't been paying attention, have you? Gromnir is the guy who keeps saying that balance is so difficult to achieve precisely 'cause o' the difference in approaches 'tween games such as kotor2 and fo. bg2 abandons player freedom once you make trek to spellhold, but previous to that it allows a great deal o' player choice. obviously you can add more player choice w/i each o' the bg2 side-quests to increase the illusion... give more ways to complete unseeing eye and druid grove and other such stuff, but the basic kinda approach is more than adequate... and if you seem some fundamental magic in the fo approach then you is deluding self. heck, fo's great innovation is simple to reduce major plot points... ooooooohhhhh. 2) you still ain't shown us the balance example 3) am not sure you is using occam's razor correct HA! Good Fun!

it ain't always up to developer. these sites is an advertising tool and the marketing o' game is typical the responsibility o' the publisher. those publishers can be pretty territorial. as for potential harm in telling fans... dunno. am trying to think o' a recent obsidian or bio game (developers who is pretty open regarding development) that had surprises as far as mechanics and features were concerned. for kotor2 we knew that there were gonna be new prestige classes and we knew which prestige classes would be included. for soz the fans were informed o' the overland map and how player skills checks would occur as that map were traversed. heck, we even knew that once again obsidian would be using yuan-ti as a major antagonist race. maybe you not find out all the info exact when you want it, but chances are obsidian gives you most o' the information along the way. Gromnir is all for honest and open, but is some valid reasons Not to do so. is a couple o' memorable examples o' obsidian/black isle folks saying the wrong thing and potential causing problems with publisher and or license holder. additional, is probable annoying to deal with fans who wants extreme range o' different stuff, but the developers can always simply ignore such stuff. am also thinking that by the time developers can solicit player feedback on a particular project it is often too late to make changes even if developer wished to... so what is point o' discussing? seems like most o' the time the board discussions ain't got no chance o' altering the present game so much as future games... which may be unsatisfying for some fans. furthermore, some developers suck at board communication. is more than a few game builders who manages to give fans wrong impressions... or maybe they is just tools. is a couple o' biowarian developers who general do not help the biowarian cause... should probable post less. HA! Good Fun!

btw, 'cause some folks seems confused, is not as if Gromnir is suggesting that there is some kinda continuum with freedom at one end and cohesive/compelling story at the other end. what Gromnir is recognizing is simple that those features and approaches that helps to create the illusion o' freedom has a tendency to makes the creation o' a comprehensive story more difficult. now, if resources is not a factor, and you got a huge budget, then you can does like bio did with bg2 and create loads o' side quest stuff while still having 'nuff resources to put together a rather complex critical path story. whether you personally liked bg2 or not, the basic approach clearly would be useful in creating a "balanced" game. much o' bg2 were pure tangential and optional side quest, but clearly there were more than enough material for the core story... even if you thinks bio flubbed the core story. and of course, the more you demand meaningful choice (such as weren't really a focus in bg2) the more complex you is making the process, no? furthermore, look at obsidian's most recent attempt to balance. soz were how successful as far as creating player freedom and making a compelling critical path story? the illusion o' freedom were generated via a world map and bunches o' extremely brief encounters. the critical path story followed traditional form as the player is introduced to a handful o' linear plot points that moves story inexorably towards the climax/denouement encounters. recent history is not encouraging for those who says "why not" in regards to balance 'tween core story and freedom. HA! Good Fun!

Other than asari and quinari, all the alien races were all male. Ehh... they were? Not sure about the turians but krogans, salarians & quarians didn't seem to be all male. That was asari and quarians. Okay, show me a picture of a female turian, krogan, or salarian. can you be certain that you didn't see female salarians and krogans and turians? as were mentioned, the game made multiple references to female krogan, so we know they at least got 2 sexes. as for the other critters... HA! Good Fun!

carth were functional as a joinable npc. he fulfilled various needs... offered combat support and functioned as a tour guide. making him so poofy kinda ruined the parallels 'tween han solo, but otherwise he were not worse than some other characters. as a romance? for folks that wanted romance, he were romancable, but you got an emotionally damaged character who initially vacillates 'tween gung-ho puppy dog and maudlin wreck. turns out carth got big traumas, but thanks to the love o' a good woman and her five or so dialogues with carth, he is able to overcome his decades o' damage and demons. love conquers all, and apparent love works fast too. the romance aspect is part what resulted in carth being a bit annoying for players Not interested in romance, but regardless, the actual carth romance were necessarily rushed. in any other medium such a romance is either The story, or at least it gets loads more development. carth o' kotor is a jnpc that that you can chat up... or not and you can romance... or not. regardless, you gots a bare double handful o' encounters to work through cart's entire melodramatic background if you is gonna get resolution and a positive conclusion to romance. carth were kinda terrible for Gromnir... but as a romance am not sure if you can ever get genuine quality as the entire romance arc has gotta happen relative quick and tangential. is a bad model. is not necessary that biowarian writers is incompetent, but they gots a very unforgiving scheme. am having 0 knowledge o' the carth ii romance from mass effect as we didn't explore. carth jr. were less annoying than carth. never explored the romance aspect o' carth jr., but as a joinable npc he were far less emotional unstable than the kotor version. HA! Good Fun!

"The players don't need to visit in-world places in a certain order although the players may have time limit I think this "clear-cut" linear or non-linear argument won't lead anywhere." 1) Gromnir weren't the one who brought up non-linear. have already observed many times that non-linear is a fiction-- an illusion. 2) show us again, if the illusion o' non-linearity can be effective woven into a game wherein the critical path story is engaging and compelling, then show us. wombat keeps telling us that he ain't holding FO out as some kinda holy grail... but is the game he/she keeps coming back to in spite of the fact that the writing were pretty damned forgettable... and one reason why the writing were forgettable is 'cause o' the fundamental structuring. sure, is no reason why individual npcs can't be given more compelling dialogues in a fo game ('cause wombat suggestion that such stuff is non-fo is clearly ridiculous) , but you still end up with a "story" that is mostly just a random collection o' quasi-related encounters. there is few, if any, "balanced" games such as wombat and others suggest. why you think that is? look at from pov of writer. reduce plot points. makes many encounters tangential and optional. allow for bifurcation somewhere along the way, etc. every option you consider that bolsters illusion o' player freedom and choice is gonna necessarily make it more difficult to write a compelling and coherent story with well-defined characters. go ahead and try for yourselves... try and outline such a story. now, it can be argued that the tangential stuff IS the story in a game similar to structure o' fallout. allow player to makes their own story via the loosely connected tangential and optional quests that exist within a common setting... maybe bolster common themes as player explores world and characters. fine. great. is a valid approach to storytelling... but you not end up with a compelling critical path story.. you not end up balanced. so, show us. show us examples o' success balanced or show us outline or show us something other than faith in obsidian that they can balance... 'cause if you notice, they ain't never actually stated that they could balance a kotor2/motb story approach with fo kinda openness and freedom. HA! Good Fun!

jane austen would have serious problems writing a tangential and complete optional romance in a crpg. how many romance encounters you got in a game per per romancable character? writers got a relative small number encounters that is near complete dialogue driven and they is 'posed to make keep insular. you don't wanna do romance? is not a problem, 'cause unlike the traditional romance in which winning the girl IS the story, in a crpg such as DA you gotta make so that romance is something that need not touch core plot path. bio and other developers backed selves into a corner. the romances in bg2 were popular, so they is gonna continue providing such stuff, but the basic method o' implementation makes 'em seem invariably rushed, and juvenile... gotta get through entire dramatic romance arc with a handful o' dialogue encounters. developers is stuck with a horrible model. ... maybe the biowarians should hire more poets... somebodies who can does romance in stanzas instead o' pages. HA! Good Fun!

looks like THIS thread got pruned. am not sure why. "By simplification, I didn't mean your discussion but your conclusion" conclusions should always be simple. am not sure you understand "oversimplification." is Gromnir that observed just how complex the tasks is that you presuppose. noted that game writing is cooperative and multi-tiered. has technical, economic and artistic concerns. we further noted that in spite o' your use o' the "balancing" language that there not seem to be any observable black isle/obsidian games that would prove your point. if is so simple to achieve balance, then why has obsidian forgone in the past? why has virtual every developer forgone? furthermore, in spite o' fact that we ain't a developer, we did note that actual developers has conceded the point that the balancing is hardly easy to achieve... and you can review this and other threads for examples o' such developer input. etc. ... of course the conclusions is simple. a good conclusion Should be simple, and ideally it should seem self-evident in retrospect. "Seriously, do you really believe it would be convincing in FO setting, where PC and in-party NPC talk a lot," yes. duh. is a crpg. the pc need not be taciturn if player don't wish. and even if you got the silent type, without substantial narration or use o' real expensive cinematographic cut scenes you is significantly crippling self if you not avail self of the opportunity to use dialogue. but of course, there is a right way to do fo, eh> bah. am having to rewrite the same stuff. "Moreover, I thought Sawyer was talking about the difficulty of keeping the dialogue trees as compact as possible while still reflecting in-game events. That's tricky. I wonder what they'll do." eh, where is the confusion? much o' this gets tied together. illusion o' non-linearity is achieved multiple ways. one way is the tangential side-quest. side quest resolutions can be kept insular and discreet or can be used to further illusion o' non-linearity and player freedom by incorporating critical path dialogue options. meaningful bifurcation o' critical path & main plot point dialogues has a tendency to become complicated no? etc. HA! Good Fun!

"It's oversimplification by Gromnir" am thinking that you not know definition of "oversimplification." Gromnir point out just how complex crpg writing is compared to other media. we then observe that it is axiomatic that the more you attempts to achieve teh Illusion of "non-linearity" the more difficult it is to achieve a coherent and compelling critical path story... an obvious point that has been conceded by the developers more than once. the oversimplification in the present debate is the suggestion that the word "balance" is some kinda magical incantation that makes easy to achieve desirable storytelling depth and player freedom. and is amusing to note wombat's suggestion that what made fo characters great were fact that they were gimped... which thus reinforced "lone wanderer" something or other. anybody wanna point out the logic flaws in that one? HA! Good Fun!

That does seem a bit sexist, yeah. Admittedly the slash writers I happen to know are all women, but still. "poof"? "carth were gay" because of, what, his effeminate tendency to go on and on about his feelings? So your general feeling is that women are gaying up Bioware RPGs? Here I was thinking you were a cut above the game forum rabble. How disappointing. am saying that bioware's attempt to makes female gamers happy resulted in a poof carth. is no secret that carth were developed based on feedback from female gamers... resulted in a very sensitive and high maintenance character who were in serious need o' some lithium. is not female gamer fault, but the bio writer in question ended up with a cliche gay carth. get all sensitive if you wish but Gromnir am not saying that all gay men is poofs or that gayness is bad. am saying that carth, as written in kotor, were resulting in a cliche and unpalatable poof character. btw, regardless o' your opinions o' Gromnir, we wouldn't mind seeing a game that made a gay romance core to game. romance, gay or otherwise, is NOT appropriate tangential. as a optional side-quest such fare invariably becomes annoying juvenile or cliche ghey... without actually intending either. women writers seem far more likely to do gay male romance. bioware has a considerable number o' female writers. therefore... is a simple syllogism. is not a bad thing to do gay romance, but as a tangential side-quest option the gay romance is gonna be terrible... period. is gonna be cliche and stoopid and annoying. did Gromnir mention how much he loathes the typical crpg romance formula? HA! Good Fun! ps Gromnir is not a cut above the game forum rabble. never pretended to be. not feel bad that you were mistaken 'bout that.

and yet he ain't as good as the dog? I don't recall ever saying that. I would chalk up the love for Dogmeat to the general dumbnosity of the Fallout public. Or perhaps it was his tendency to live a bit longer than the other party NPCs. I thought Fallout had some interesting characters (ZAX would be another I liked in the original) never suggested that you had claimed dog superiority. Gromnir implied the dog's superiority by way o' the "dumbosity" o' the fo faithful. HA! Good Fun!

I hope so as well. If not, there's always Dragon Age. Wait what? I have not been following DA that much.. but did they confirm Male/Male romance possible in DA? our reply is gonna seem sexist, but what the heck... with all the female writers that seem to be on the staff at Bio nowadays, it is almost inevitable that a male x male romance will be included in a near future game... even if is only hand-holding poofs or an innuendo kinda thing. HA! Good Fun! ps carth were gay AND bipolar even if his romance were hetero.

Please don't jinx Bethesda obtaining the Torment license. *kills himself* why would bethesda getting ps:t be a bad thing. if same progression is followed, ps:t would become amazing popular and then obsidian would do a sequel/expansion. worst case scenario would be that a terrible game would be released with planescape name... which is somehow worse than no new games with planescape name? is a no lose situation. regardless, it not seem possible. d&d is a wotc property and planescape is a dead setting. is hard to imagine what kinda wackiness would have to occur for a publisher to actively pursue the property AND for wotc to agree to the development. HA! Good Fun!

is because we were again confronted by the Chorus' refrain: Woe unto thee who dost not Follow in the footsteps of Cain. Render unto Cain what is Cain's ... fo were great... so obviously the writing and character development were beyond reproach, no? no. *shrug* am having no genuine problem if obsidian wants to do fo:nv similar to fo, but such an approach does make a coherent and compelling critical path story much more difficult to achieve. fo didn't achieve. fo didn't have even good character development, much less great character development. is it possible to do great story and do similar to fo? yeah, but fo ain't the measure o' success, 'cause fo didn't succeed. HA! Good Fun!