Gromnir

am gonna admit we didn't read the thread. saw a couple posts and the title. resulted in Gromnir confusion. me2 characters suck. me2 characters is great. me2 characters is... meh. ... am missing something. has me2 been released and we not heard? you base good v. bad on what? how on earth you judge good v. bad w/o playing? 'course Gromnir is getting the feeling that many of you not need to play game to make up mind 'bout characters in Any game. appearnce and character concept is more important than how character is developed. HA! Good Fun!

am quite familiar with what Court is doing. First Amendment speech might seem complex to the neophyte or the inexperienced, but those crazy arsed Justices and judges doesn't just ignore precedent in favor o' expedience as you would suggest. "oh sure, there isn't a vice category, but we all know what the Court is REALLY doing." hogwash. how many times does we see O'brien get applied to nudie bars and p0rn shops? if vice were summarily dismissed as obscenity, O'brien would never get no mention in context o' pr0n. unprotected speech not require application of O'brien. make some crazy distinction 'tween case law and the manner in which courts actual apply the law? *chuckle* 'cause judges loves being overturned on appeal. the strength of the State interest does not in any way, shape or form, decrease Constitutional protection or the level o' scrutiny required for State to successful limit free speech rights. and again, single out art in Miller is wacky and wrong... is Serious art, lit, science and political that is making up prong 3. to continue to identify as an "art" exception or category is more than a little inaccurate. and as for cigarettes... you is again complete wrong. commercial speech does get a different level o' scrutiny, but has nothing to do with cigarettes v. books. cigarette related speech not get any less protection than any other kinda commercial speech. is the State interest part o' the test that is easier for the State to meet. and no, art doesn't get an automatic win. if art falls in another category of unprotected speech, then you lose... regardless o' artistic merit. btw, medium is gonna be a factor that hurts video games as 'posed to helps. in Pacifica we get the indecent speech sub-category 'cause o' the nature o' the medium and the increased likelihood of affecting children... always gotta be wary of the cute case. am thankful that is tougher to spin the pervasive nature o' video games 'posed to radio, but you got a complete distorted notion o' how medium affects. "so it serves the interest of video game developers and publishers to make sure that they never get put into the same boat as smoking and porn, but instead are compared to novels and films." wacky. even the non-lawyers on the board is gonna see that your pr0n v. books and film distinction is ridiculous... really. Miller made life easier for SCOTUS 'cause only prong 3 is a question o' law... and Court got tired of constant state and local appeals post Roth... but post Miller world ain't genuine more simple for lawyers with an obscenity question... not by a long shot. regardless... is getting pretty far off-base of actual topic. take your final shot at the issue before the inevitable mod warning. HA! Good Fun!

there were no complexity in the unknown. state lost. is one reason why Miller Court changed. state were tired of losing. "they call it something else everytime, but when you get down to it, vice activities are given less protection by the courts. still i do absolutely recognize that they themselves won't admit to these categories (and thus i wouldnt bring them up in these exact words in a brief), but don't kid yourself about reality (i may be a bit cynical here so pardon me)" am sure you don't write up the brief that way. *chuckle* in point o' fact, Court is real careful not to make no art distinction. Chaplinsky and other cases makes real clear that there is a Very limited number o' categories o' expression that is unprotected, and "vice" ain't unprotected 'less is obscene (or kiddie pr0n). the state interest may be public morality, but don't get confused with the level o' protection the speech is getting. and again, as stated first place, the medium got zero relevance. enoch: am wondering if gravity is different in sigil. those girls is gonna have some serious back problems. it is kinda funny that the brothel in ps:t did less to t!tillate the prurient interests of the player than any other game brothel we can recall. HA! Good Fun!

1) initial you make a distinction 'tween books, movies and video games as art v. pr0n and cigarettes as vice. is no such distinction. the medium has no immediate relevance. wanna discuss Pacifica? neither does Gromnir... and it not help you in any event. 2) anybody who thinks Miller made simple has never had 1st hand experience with an obscenity case. pre-Miller the state had burden o' showing that the material in question were utter without redeeming social value. were almost impossible for state to prove. made simple. maybe you not like the simplicity of impossible, but simple it was. in addition to the vagueness o' "serious" we got the damnably myopic community standard... which is indeed effective if all you is concerned 'bout is shutting down strip clubs and nudie bars, but in 2009 with internet and mass media... pre-miller were easier on judge, but only marginally so. "whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value." *snort* regardless, is no art category... not in any way shape or form. non-art gets loads o' protection. again, non-protected speech is limited to some very limited categories. art rarely gets mentioned save for in the obscenity context... and even so is mentioned equal with political, literary and scientific.. HA! Good Fun!

was easier before Miller. no "serious" language and community standard is now more headache than help. third prong is question of law, not fact. prong one and two is for fact finder (judge or jury). HA! Good Fun!

Gromnir is right here. Though I'd suggest that most obscenity rulings boil down to 'is it art?

there is no "art" category for first amendment. there is protected speech and unprotected speech. obscenity, kiddie pr0n, and fighting words is examples o' unprotected speech. is no books, music and video games distinction. pr0n gets just as much first protection as does War & Peace or Gone With the Wind. is only when pron is obscene that it not get protection of amendment 1. for instance, is more than a few japanese video games that is considered obscene and does not get first amendment protection. similarly, there is books and movies that is considered obscene. has nothing to do with the medium. HA! Good Fun!

"Some books are, some movies are, there is absolutely no reason, why at some point in time an excellent game could be considered by renown art critics as a masterpiece of art..." am not recalling where we argued 'gainst your point. lord knows we never claimed that all books and movies is art. what we did note is that in millions o' years, games ain't been able to overcome perception that they can't be art. video games IS games. fact that checkers can be played on a computer not make fundamental different than checkers played with tangible game pieces. fact that millions o' years has produced no games=art not mean that it won't happen in future, but is a damned discouraging for those who is expecting sudden appreciation o' the video game as art. am also wondering if you is willful obtuse. is a reason we bring up D. H. Lawrence and pr0n. as long as Lady Chatterley were viewed as pr0n it weren't gonna be accepted as art by the majority... or even my a noteworthy minority. Lady Chatterley not change since it were written, but perception as pr0n has. as long as video games is seen primarily Games, then we not see much hope for the art label sticking in near future. even so, we gotta thank you for the chess piece ploy... genuine laughed. "What does that mean? What would that change? What purpose does being labeled "art" serve?" for some folks it could mean lots. imagine getting your MFA in video games? heck, become a professor o' video games. am s'posing there would be some grant monies involved. new class o' dweebs is able to terrorize and exploit their grad students. personally, am not caring. call art or not won't change how much we enjoys games. nevertheless, as the question of when/if games will eventual get widespread recognition as art were raised, Gromnir thought it were fun to challenge the rather biased and optimistic pov o' a bunch gamers posting at a computer game developer board. HA! Good Fun!

the only one distracting here is you, comparing videogames with normal games... they are both games sure but of totaly different kind... it's the same like you would said that movies and porn is the same kind of entertainment... one reason why video games is unlikely to be taken serious as art is 'cause they is games. you not get that? apparently not. heck, the word "game" is right there in your video game label. am recalling that chrisA, in an interview talking 'bout crpgs, recognized that you could take the writing out o' a video game and still has a quality game as long as the gameplay were engaging... but reverse were not true. take gameplay out o' the game and keep the writing and you got... nothing. Game not ceases to be a game because is video. and pr0n film is film. pr0n literature is literature. is not totally different at all. the definition o' pr0n changes depending on time, and location, audience and community. maybe you read up on Lady Chatterley's Lover as a start. is 'bout perception. d.h. lawrence book ain't changed, but perception has. is no way that pr0n will be viewed as art, but sometimes what is viewed as pr0n does change. sheesh. HA! Good Fun!

don't be ridiculous... or more ridiculous. you is talking 'bout individual works o' sculpture. am not suspecting you realize just how silly your observation is... 'cause ANY tangible object has just as much potential to be rendered as art. is not that the game is art. am suspecting you already forgot the call o' the question. when/is computer games gonna be taken serious as an art form. try not to distract yourself. HA! Good Fun!

You know very good i was talking about computer/console games... and they are definately not older than human species doesn't matter what you were talking 'bout. games has been 'round probable back before cro magnon, and games ain't gotten the benefit of doubt as an art form in all that time. makes harder for computer/console games to somehow change. HA! Good Fun! All right, then. Backgammon: is it art? no. neither is chess or monopoly or poker or any other game we can think of at the moment. maybe some folks consider chess an art, but not most folks. computer games can combine elements o' film and literature, but they is still viewed as games. no matter how good the game there is gonna be some resistance to use o' the art label. HA! Good Fun!

You know very good i was talking about computer/console games... and they are definately not older than human species doesn't matter what you were talking 'bout. games has been 'round probable back before cro magnon, and games ain't gotten the benefit of doubt as an art form in all that time. makes harder for computer/console games to somehow change. HA! Good Fun!

1) you is dreaming if you believe that ps:t will ever be considered an artistic masterpiece = starry night. ... really. am not even gonna argue this. ps:t is our fave game, but if you thinks ps:t ever gets cred as genuine art from some significant portion o' public and academia, then you is deluded. HA! Good Fun! To be fair, no videogame has managed something of that magnitude yet. because games are about 70 years younger than movies and more than few hundred years younger than books games is probable older than human species. HA! Good Fun!

what greater population is you talking 'bout? the greater population that Gromnir knows does not think that writing without pictures equals art. get a bill in the mail from electric company. not art. memo from boss 'bout excessive bathroom breaks or misuse o' lunchroom microwave. not art. similarly, am not certain o' the public you reference that believes pictures without writing is art. picture of a crappy desk that somebody is trying to sell on craigslist for $200. not art. picture of what your lawn will look like if you use Miracle-Gro. not art. you people is being silly. pictures and writing not got some kinda wacky Art free pass from... anybody. has nothing to do with pictures and writing. is more than a few illustrated kids books that is probably considered art by mainstream. ever seen what some o' those pre-printing press illustrated bibles auction for? is Comics that ain't easily embraced as art. what is difference 'tween comics and other forms o' illustrated books? not much, but perception is hard to shake. even so, is no writing + pictures = crap. is Comics = crap. is no different than pr0n. is any reason that pr0n can't be art? probable not, but given the target audience and fact that there ain't no widely accepted Art pr0n, the genre faces a serious uphill battle in gaining recognition... not that the pr0n industry is concerned 'bout lack o' academic respect. regardless, quit with the silly pictures + writing nonsense. HA! Good Fun!

who refers to comics as the 9th art? is probable some euro-trash affectation. we thinks some comics has risen to level o' art, but am not gonna go so far as to suggest that our personal belief is common or accepted by a significant % o' academics. however, the numbers o' academics who has begun to accept comics as potential art is growing. we saw the beginnings of a shift occur during late 80s. weren't no sea change or anything... HA! Good Fun!

1) you is dreaming if you believe that ps:t will ever be considered an artistic masterpiece = starry night. ... really. am not even gonna argue this. ps:t is our fave game, but if you thinks ps:t ever gets cred as genuine art from some significant portion o' public and academia, then you is deluded. 2) van gogh were a single artist a single artist can live and die for his work. james joyce had many offers to publish Dubliners, but every publisher wished to fix. joyce refused. 10 years joyce refused til he finally met a publisher who would print and distribute Dubliners without revision or alterations. can you imagine an indie developer doing same? black isle is a particularly bad example 'cause they were the crpg development arm of interplay, a for-profit company with stock... public traded stock. the goal o' interplay, first and foremost, were to be making money/profit for stockholders. maybe some years down the line you can get 'nuff money into game industry such that a developer or publisher is willing to release one or two art films each year... prestige pieces. or maybe some developer manages to slip an art game past publisher and such release complete alters the industry as a whole. dunno. what we does know is that ps:t did not make interplay stock more valuable... on contrary, it helped push interplay closer to brink o' collapse. again, ps:t is our favorite crpg, but as a commercial product it were a miserable failure. interplay weren't trying to sell ps:t to posterity... were trying to sell to customers in winter of 99. HA! Good Fun!

am not sure what you is talking 'bout. there were loads o' print and on-line previews for ps:t leading up to release of game... is a long time past, but you can still dig up the multi-page and extreme positive previews of ps:t from ign and gamespot. am recalling 1 and 2 page advertisements in cgw... and those ain't cheap. there were a 5' tall cardboard ps:t display at our local game store... had nameless one and most o' the joinables near life-size and in bright shiny colors. traffic at interplay's ps:t boards were pretty good--josh were the interplay board monkey at time. ps:t were hardly some unknown enterprise on the fringe o' the gaming world. btw, one reason why ps:t were such a disappointment were 'cause it were not simply a small budget endeavor. sales for ps:t were particular disappointing 'cause o' the Big investment by interplay. ps:t failed. is many reasons why it were a commercial failure. revisionist history won't make it any less of a failure 10 years removed. HA! Good Fun! side-note: am willing to concede that the ps:t advertising were poorly conceived. is not that there weren't enough advertising, but is possible/probable that many were confused by interplay's adverts. if you were not familiar with the planescape setting, then ps:t advertisements maybe did little to create anticipation for game.

that assumes that you would have to "keep firing" people... which is unlikely. fire a couple malcontents and the rest get the message: nobody is irreplaceable. HA! Good Fun! You'd be surprised, not a general case, but sometimes the firing's backfire and you create more malcontents. It happened in my last job, company got mismanaged to death, team kept losing developers due to the manager's wannabe hardass-ness. Was funny to see them go from happy to describing to me how they'd cut the manager's throat, though, hehe (frankly a poisoned Jos Loius was the best option). this is a different economy. is not like it were even a year ago. unless you is in a highly specialized industry, the boss can be a complete harda$$ and many/most employees will willingly take because they is happy to have a job... and if they ain't happy to eat crap and grin, you can very easy find somebody who will. *shrug* the harda$$ model works well in this kinda economy, particularly if you does the good cop & bad cop routine. usually is mid-level manager or supervisor who gets the bad cop role, but Gromnir thinks the method works best when immediate supervisor gets to be the good guy... "Yeah, the boss is an 4-hole, but if we don't finish up this project on schedule, both you and I may be looking for work. Look, I know that you need a couple of days off next month, and I will make sure that you get them if you complete your work by Friday. We're all in this together, right?" only real drawback is that the employees feels more loyalty to their immediate supervisors and managers as 'posed to the Evil Boss/Company. have to fire or transfer the manager and you can be faced with problems. in any event. Gromnir ain't feeling bad that some exec wants to treat game development like a business rather than a kindergarten class. sure, is tough to squeeze art out o' a bunch o' scared sheep, but this industry produces damned little art anyway. when you got duty to stockholders, you better be darn sure you is producing a product that will makes return on investment... leave the amusing art pretensions to the indies. Gromnir may prefer games made by those indie ne're do wells, but Gromnir is a purchaser rather than an investor. HA! Good Fun!

that assumes that you would have to "keep firing" people... which is unlikely. fire a couple malcontents and the rest get the message: nobody is irreplaceable. HA! Good Fun!

darth vader works pretty good in this sorta economy. whenever there is a sharp decline in employment, overall production actually increases. 'course this means that even when economy turns 'round business not immediately start rehires. am recalling a story 'bout building of Hoover Dam(n) during the depression. work conditions were horrendous and fatalities were common. eventually 'bout 1/3 of the +7 thousand workers created a work stopage. the Hoover Dam project manager simply fired the malcontents and replaced 'em the next day... though he did incrimental improve working conditions afterwards. HA! Good Fun!

This explains the motivation for every single thing he said. I would like to hear him trying to do a motivational speech to the developers. "Thank you for showing up this morning. The coffee we provided is terrible, but the bear claws are pretty good. Feel free to grab a pastry on the way out. This pep talk isn't going to take very long, so the bad coffee should still be warm and the boston cr

to be fair, is not "getting" sad. the decapitated head slide down sword bit is not new. am recalling that when Gromnir first heard all the criticism o' the violence trailer we went to bio board to catch up on recent da news... people were speaking of da joinables we didn't have information regarding. so, we goes to the official da site to see what bio had posted 'bout their da joinabales... is when we first saw the head and sword bit. is not "getting." is from pre-e3. fact that rubbish is old rubbish not make it any more palatable, but keeps in mind that the biowarians already went through whole explanation 'bout how some o' the advertising and presentation o' da at e3 and elsewhere were giving folks the wrong impression o' game contents. the wacky part o' bio response to violence trailer and da site blood splatter motif were their expressed surprise and disappointment that fans would accept the extreme nature o' the recent advertising while ignoring years o' developer posting. how coulds all you fans possibly think that da were a campy gore-fest (with some clumsy soft-core porn thrown into the mix) when gaider and priestly and kirby had been describing the For Reals DA on a daily basis these past few years? ... is a fine line 'tween willful obtuse and stoopid. HA! Good Fun!

am not minding that you folks don't like the bio characters... though you ain't got near 'nuff to judge. the thing that we find irksome is those 'mongst you who laud obsidian characters, but slam bio. am not sure how many times we has heard how fantastic chrisA is as a writer. fine... but if lack o' originality bothers you, then fact that ravel has made an appearance in every obsidian game since ps:t should be worth comment. fall-from-grace is the redeemed whore and mystery-that-is-woman character. nordom didn't exactly inspire with growth... had more lines than bio's hk-47, but served same comic relief function. gann? jolly rogue womanizer with mommy issues? similarly, who woulda' given a damn 'bout dove character if she had been human, 'cause the paladin type who figuratively sees world black & white is made interesting by making literal see black & white... and adding wings? that blind sith in kotor2 with her fortune-cookie dialogues that could be exhausted in your first on-ship conversation, were a real fantastic example o' character development. am not minding if you folks pre-judge characters without playing game... 'cause that is what people do. some o' you has already decided that you like or dislike da so it genuine won't make much difference once you plays game. you already gots mind made up and the actual play experience will justify your deciscion regardless. even so, some o' you folks prove to Gromnir why we loathe the gaming community. originality o' characters for you is based not on what they says or do in game, but rather is based on physical character design and a 3-line summary. make an amorphos blob with mpd from different dimension the new love interest and no doubt you peoples would think is kewl, regardless o' how actually developed. bah. HA! Good Fun!

clean install of nwn2 or does you got mods/fixes? we got no genuine advice save for what we always hears first from the tech-heads when a strange bug pops up so long after release: remove all mods. HA! Good Fun!

the capacity o' human memory is staggering... when proper directed and motivated. the school we referenced, the one that did mary poppins, made a big production out o' their yearly play. the school librarian and music teacher devoted considerable hours and effort. every year they did similar plays, and they actual had A & B casts and multiple showings. were damned impressive for elementary school. no winging or bluffing. ... am recalling some o' the guys we played football with in college. am not sure how they got into school, but they were pretty damned unmotivated as students... tutored a few that couldn't write a paragraph much less a multi-page essay. nevertheless, these jokers could memorize a +100 page playbook. fatigue. assume spells with levels o' complexity 1-6. cast a level 1 spell costs 5 fatigue. cast a level 2 costs 10. etc. must be a super smarty character to cast level 6 spells, but is unlikely that super smarty player is gonna be able to manage a pool o' more than 40 fatigue points even at high levels. on the other hand, the less smarty mage who were more physical oriented maybe boosted fatigue to 65 points... but he can only cast spell levels 1-4. smarty mage can cast 1 level six spell and a single level 2 spell during course of ordinary combat encounter. on the other hand, the buff mage can cast 3 level 4 spells and a level 1 spell... or some other combo o' spells with a total fatigue cost o' 65. added complexity to system: the character can convert health points into fatigue points... but am not sure how would work in rt combat. 'course combat actions also got fatigue costs. fatigue regenerates slow. health regenerates hardly at all... and fatigue and health boosting items/potions typical increase rate o' regeneration rather than simply resulting in an instant boost to fatigue points. is not exact how Gromnir has implemented in past (our pool o' fatigue points tended to be greater so that magic types and combat types could do more stuff during extended combats,) but with a fatigue system we ends up with a much greater array o' viable mage builds and encounter tactics tend to be more challenging too. HA! Good Fun!