Gromnir

labels is a convenience, the application o' which inevitably leads to some misunderstandings. *shrug* "Then explain what makes a "true" Fallout game, and why Beth's FO3 isn't one." am not so much concerned with labels, but like hell kitty, the "true" fallout stuff perplexes us. fo had plenty o' flaws. fo were a pc game made in the late 1990s. fo were only a moderate good seller (if that). fo were just a game and the notion o' canon for a game seems misplaced. am not certain why staying "true" to fallout is seen as a positive. sure, as genuine and potential customers, the True Believers got considerable interest in attempting to convince the developers that fallout canon is worthy o' protection. fine... am all for trying to sway developers... to influence change. am simply not understanding how a "true" fallout argument is persuasive... 'less the developer in question is already a True Believer, in which case the argument need not be made. if a feature or idea is worthy it should survive on its own merits rather than 'cause o' the imagined consanguineous relationship 'tween parent game and its progeny. those folks who speak o' the "true fallout" is the ones we typical throw into the fallout faction bin... though that probable ain't fair... not that we feels any genuine remorse. HA! Good Fun! "I think your post is probably too long-winded to incite true flames, only increasingly long-winded replies." am gonna observe that while Gromnir's post count ain't near as high as some folks 'round here, our total word count would probable be in the top 10. brevity is no prerequisite for flame war tinder... not that we thought that aristes post was particularly... charged/loaded?

am not gay, but we likes cooking and gershwin tunes... renoir prints makes all warm and fuzzy, and we has seen Guys and Dolls 'bout a dozen times. ... if Gromnir didn't look a bit like an ambulatory fire hydrant, and if our home were decorated better, it would be tough to convince folks that we is straight. btw, the oed explanation makes sense. am gonna go with that one. HA! Good Fun!

quick observation: don't assume that Gromnir thought that fo3 were a great game. truth-to-tell, we Did enjoy paying through fallout, but we liked in spite of the obvious flaws. character development choices become largely meaningless if you can become highly proficient in a majority o' the available skills... no genuine costs. many o' the design choices and writing flaws we hated in oblivion were present in fo3. nevertheless, Gromnir devoted considerable hours playing fo3, and we not feel as if we were cheated. end were a bit abrupt, but we had fun. 'course, the reasons we thought fo3 were flawed has nothing to do with fo canon. HA! Good Fun! ps bethesda earned big bonus points with their Danny Kaye & Billie Holiday songs in fo3.

(self-pruned/edited... 'cause we is all about the love) HA! Good Fun!

just trying to figure out what position you're playing, homer. catcher in baseball. strong safety or fullback in football usually play prop or flanker in rugby. *shrug* is few things more useless than a list, but you is welcome to it. wanna figure out our culinary leanings from our most recent shopping list? onions, carrot, celery root, short ribs (english cut) ketchup, etc. HA! Good Fun!

is a new group of nma/codex refugees at obsidian... so you gotta expect the deja vu. HA! Good Fun!

game we thought were good. panzer general 2, shadow of the horned rat, dark omens, mechwarrior 2, bg2, mdk2, iwd, battlezone, grim fandango, silent hunter 3, tie fighter, madden football franchise, total annihilation, ps:t, half-life 2 (not Gromnir's kinda game, but it was good even so) fo2, pong... and others am not certain what you thinks such a lit reveals, and is not complete by any stretch o' the imagination, but you asked... *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

lulz. ok, yeah. i always forget about that abortion of a game. In it's defense, they copied almost word for word the original written PnP game, so the blame for quality writing/story telling goes elsewhere. They could be held accountable for not changing, or improving it. But then it would not remain true to the source. It was hard for them to win. am gonna call bs 1) is not almost word for word... pick up actual copy o' toee 2) vol deserves an apology there were a couple o' folks on the toee boards pre release (including vol) that noted that toee were a big module, but a crappy one. beyond general crappiness, it were noted that if troika didn't flesh out the skeleton, toee would be a damned lifeless and dull experience. the troika faithful (and even a troika developer) responded that of course toee would be fleshed out... the old modules were simply a framework upon which the clever and imaginative dm would add his own personal touches to bring to life. the troika faithful had supreme confidence in the ability o' tim cain to be the dm who would breathe life into toee. after toee release THEN we start hearing excuses 'bout how troika simply followed the old ad&d module and how they couldn't be criticized for being faithful. what a crock. the apologists and revisionists really changed their tune after release. don't buy the line o' bull 'bout faithfulness o' toee. HA! Good Fun!

lulz. ok, yeah. i always forget about that abortion of a game. @grominir: see above sentence. also, please answer my question...and don't do so by asking a question yourself. also, i'm not trying be clever and the intended irony isn't what i'm commenting on. rather that your posts read like the attempts of a third-rate Joyce fan at best. clarify your specific question. already responded to the superior troika writing nonsense suggestion you is curious as to where we has seen good writing in games... crpgs specific maybe? ps:t were very good and very bad. ravel, as an example, were one o' the best developed crpg characters we can recollect... no doubt that is why chrisA keeps using aspect o' her in every game... kreia and seer and cat lady from iwd2, etc. ps:t dialogues were often terrible with the philosophical introspection that came off as campy., although the planescape setting made easier to swallow. nwn actually had some bright spots... charwood is often overlooked. kotor and some excellent characters, and the intentional mirroring o' the original star wars movies was a clever approach that seems obvious only in retrospect. kotor 2 were typical o' an obsidian project with some good stuff and some real terrible... that blind sith character? who wrote her dialogues? felt bad for kelly hu having to read that dreck. iwd were actually 'bout as good as it gets as far as fantasy plot is concerned. fantasy plot is always hokum, but at least you gots some genuine heroic sacrifice thrown into the mix. along those lines, me deserves some credit for creating genuine heroic sacrifice and making meaningful with contemporaneous gameplay sacrifice. me, much like kotor, had some ok character development... and some real terrible character development. already mentioned that we liked some aspects o' bloodlines. bg2 had a good villain that were underdeveloped... the macbeth allusions and foreshadowing were excellent, but lack o' irenicus focus results in a villain that ends up feeling not much different than the typical cliche fantasy baddie. what a shame. more? there is good crpg writing out there, but hardly any of it came from troika. black isle's original fallouts had intriguing quests... actual craftsmanship o' writing were suspect. to blast fo3 for writing... then to hazily recollect the glorious original fallouts seems more than a bit unfair, no? HA! Good Fun!

not sure i follow you...which is to say i'm not sure you're amazed for the right reason. i think maybe you're amazed because you lack an understanding of where peoples' complaints are coming from. just out of curiousity, what games do you prefer? as one who deems himself a connoisseur of the written word (though, ironically, your posting style couldn't be more contrived) you can't tell me you think the writing and dialogue of Fallout 3 is on par with anything Troika has done. i mean, you can...but i'd just have to giggle. so you honest suggest that toee writing were better than fo3? is an opinion and you are entitled to yours, but am gonna be more than a little surprised to see you support and identify examples o' superior writing in toee. heck, am not able to honest think of writing in arcanum that were worthy o' note. the vampire game had a few bright spots as far as writing were concerned, but that were the only troika game that had any positive writing. troika has terrible writing and poor balance and stoopid, pointless features and they gets a pass... but betheda? look to prome' post above... writing and combat weren't important to arcanum... how can Gromnir judge arcanum's merits based on writing and combat mechanics/balance? but fo3... sheesh. btw, is hardly clever that you caught the intended irony. "The fact the ideas were never implemented doesnt make FO3's good." ... you should be prevented from ever using the word "logic" in a post... evar. HA! Good Fun!

Literacy. I spent 20 times more, and uncountable times happier time with Bloodlines than i did with Fallout 3. so, obsidian ain't in this biz to make money, but instead is attempting to educate a new generation o' gamers... or somesuch nonsense. and am glad that you enjoyed bloodlines. am always a little amazed that the troika fans who is so demanding o' bethesda are so forgiving o' troika... but if you enjoyed, then more power to you. as for prome's response... ignoring sales not make those sales numbers disappear. obsidian is in the Business of making games. or is you like ziggy-- hopeful that fo becomes incorporated into rif: http://www.rif.org/ and again, say you like espoused black isle ideas for vb completely ignores that those ideas were never implemented. oh, and don't be such a narcissist... am getting to the other fallout zealots in due course. HA! Good Fun! ps 'cause ziggy asked... http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic...ighlight=#23414

This is also one of the standard easy escapes a la Codex/NMA. Of course Van Buren would be perfect.. in your mind. It was never made. It might have been crappier than Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel or it might have been the greatest game ever made, we will never know. My guess would be the former, otherwise it might have actually gotten made. But it's very convenient to take an unmade game as an example of the perfect game. Thats wonderful logic. Or a lack therefore of. And I'm sure Interplay's legendary mismanagement had nothing to do with it. And dont act like I'm saying Van Buren would have been hot ****. Its not like Dark Alliance and CoN turned out to be good. It plot and ideas were definitely more intriguing than FO3's retarded water plot though. you gots very convenient discrimination... story and combat weren't the important aspects o' arcanum, but plot woulda' made a real difference with fo3? btw, sci-fi/fantasy plots is almost always hokum... and it not matter one bit. the plot o' the original fo games were pretty ridiculous if you is being honest. also, please review bri's nma post above. in spite o' betehesda's criminal mishandling o' the franchise (*chuckle*), they sold a whole bunch o' units. those folks that want a return of faithfulness to the original franchise is ignoring the fact that bethesda's approach, while sacrilegious and profane, were more commercial viable than the original fo games. what is motivation for obsidian to return to 'ye goode olde days o' fallout? love o' the game? temporary insanity? in spite o' the criticisms o' fo3, it were a very successful game. from a practical pov what argument would you give, in light of bri's post 'bout fo commercial success linked above, to reject bethesda approach and instead embrace the goode olde days o' the fallout franchise? btw, you ain't genuine arguing comparisons of an unmade game to a completed one, is you? as noted earlier, pretty much every troika game sounded great... right up until you actually loaded on hard drive. big ideas count for squat if they ain't implemented well. actually, the grand ideas is often tougher to implement than more conservative goals-- the more grandiose the ideas, the less likely you is gonna successful implement. am not thinking that you understand what is logic if you is arguing the superiority o' an unmade game... can you maybe put into a formal syllogism, 'cause we don't see the logic you is using. "assume that all of the announced features announced by black isle regarding van buren were completely and successfully implemented." is part o' your logic? okie dokie. HA! Good Fun!

I disagree. It's much hard to write an okay 70k story than a good 10k one. I'd bet that it takes more effort and resources to create 7 unique but only decent animations than 2 unique and very good animations. I

is always a problem with unwieldy. our very limited experience with design o' pnp rules taught us real quick that is almost always better to ere on side o' simplicity: the more complex a system, the more things can go wrong. 'course, the one advantage a crpg gots over a pnp rule system is the near instantaneous number crunching... is a level o' complexity in a crpg that just ain't possible in a pnp game... can has all kinds o' variables being accounted for in a crpg that simply wouldn't be possible in a pnp rule system... *shrug* when in doubt... simple. HA! Good Fun!

fast progression ain't a bad thing... but frequently it leads to a differnt sorta tyranny o' choice. you know, is loads o' folks that loathe d&d 3e rules, but it were an okie dokie system... at least initially. sure, harm were busted, and the ranger were comic front-loaded, but many o' 3e's most glaring flaws were fixable... right up til you hits 'bout level 12. problem became more pronounced with the addition o' new prestige classes and feats, but the problem were inherent in system from day 1. get past level 12 and a well-prepared party can make a mockery o' crs. past level 12, the dice pretty much become superfluous as outcomes is largely predetermined. why is there a level 12 problem with 3e d&d? is partly a problem o' choice. hit a critical mass o' mathematics and choices resulting in a game impossible to balance-- add more options and you create more opportunities to break the rules. create a system with lots o' levels and loads o' choices and you is pretty much accepting from start that balance will not be achievable. with every splat book released, d&d 3e became more broken... simply 'cause o' more choices. loads o' levels and options invariably makes a game tougher to balance. as for appropriate perks n' such... is not fo tradition, but why not give value to perks? you gets perks pretty quick in fo3, so why not give perks values/costs? is there anyone willing to argue that all perks is created equal? no? so has perks cost between 1 and 3 points. 3-point perks shouldn't be near 3x as good as 1-point perks, but for folks that wanna gets the best perks, let 'em pay for 'em. get 1 perk point per level and a bonus perk point every third level. whatever. details is up to the developers, but m thinking that adding another level o' sophistication to the character development system wouldn't scare folks away... 'specially if such a system were able to more adequate address the unbalanced perk problems. is tough for developers to come up with kewl perks that ain't broken. hypothetical: put an "insta-kill" perk in game... perk allows character to insta-kill any enemy he/she hits in combat. am betting that more than 80% o' people playing game would try to attain the uber perk, even though such a perk would obvious ruin the game. the "kewlest" perks is often the most unbalanced... we don't envy the developers who tries to make a balanced game and satisfy the folks who want kewl/powerful stuff. in any event, am thinking that fo would benefit from a modification o' the perk system... a modification that embraces the reality that not all perks is created equal. HA! Good Fun!

is that true? game development is, in theory, a zero sum endeavor. got limited number o' man hours to use in development, and the man hours ain't interchangeable neither. create 20 extra dialogue options in a game so that folks that took the Ceramics skill feel better 'bout the choice... makes an ashtray for father's day and gets the "ulterior motive" feat perhaps. always gotta ask: what else coulda' you done with that time and those man hour resources? choice, like everything else in game development, has got costs. some o' those costs is obvious, but others is less so. HA! Good Fun!

"Both were profitable." *sigh* honestly, does we gotta go down this road again? truth to tell, Gromnir never cared 'nuff to see how well arcanum did, but while ps:t eventually made a profit, it were a business failure. repost... again. http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic...ighlight=#23414 is amusing that briareus' observations kill the ps:t business success myth equal well as the fo myth. ps:t didn't get into black until considerable time following initial release... was selling as a dual release with soul calibur at the time? place money in a savings account will result in a profit too, no? why not put your investment dollars in a nice solid mutual fund, eh? hopeful we don't have to go down this road... again. can't we all just accept that ps:t were an unfortunate business failure and move on to other issues that actually has valid points o' opposition? HA! Good Fun!

for you kids who want strawman defined... *shrug* is understandable that you would be unaware that Gromnir has criticized chrisA as much as we has complimented. lugubrious navel gazing worked in ps:t, but is a young writer's fetish that he ain't seemed to grow out of as yet. however, you get +15 points for the "horribly pretentious" observation. oh sure, it not diminish the validity o' our point, but in truth we is a bit o' a snob on such matters as writing. "Yes, the writing isnt great" understatement for effect? no? arcanum writing were worse than horrible... it were forgettable. "The thing is, why are comparing Arcanum to Fallout 3? I had fun with Arcanum, but I enjoyed Fallout 3 more. Arcanum is like one of the inhabitants of the Isle of Lost toys in Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. Yeah, you feel sorry for it, but not enough people wanted it. " "name another game that..." arcanum as an example o' anything other than unfulfilled promise? ask why we is comparing? 'cause some folks can't let arcanum or troika rest in peace. got folks re imagining the exploits o' troika and the good ship arcanum as some bold and romantic attempt to sail beyond the edge o' the map. tim cain saw the "here there be dragons" warning and laughed... sailed forward to challenge all those crpg conventions and preconceptions with nothing but courage (and buckets full of sierra's money). what a crock. arcanum were grand and memorable in nothing save for the chasm between its lofty goals and the banal reality. HA! Good Fun!

"The storytelling is refreshing," refreshing? what does that mean? like a fresca maybe? for folks that has become tired with being railroaded down a single story path, am seeing how arcanum might be "refreshing"... maybe. HA! Good Fun!

"I vaguely remember Virgil, but I don't recall the other NPCs very well." is not a particularly positive observation when speaking of a crpg, no? story is told by, of and through character. if you can't recall the characters... lots o' seemingly pointless choices in arcanum. Gromnir were genuine looking forward to the setting, but somehow troika managed to gets all the mistakes from the fallouts... and distill 'em. writing and dialogue in fallouts were often... lacking. such dialogue and writing were Horrible in arcanum. balance were laughable in fallout, but it were criminal in arcanum. etc. the developers came up with a kewl world and created lots o' character development options... then they stopped, or got distracted. there were lots to do in arcanum (good thing) but the stuff to do were almost universal uninspired and we never found a good reason to keeps trying to grind through such tedious material. too bad. "And why are you adding o's and extras s's onto things. It makes you points more annoying to read. " really? "you are so from the internets it hurts." am not certain what that means, but am pretty confident that it not lessen the validity o' our observation 'bout fo1 and fo2 humor. keeps trying though. as for mods... is different from game to game, but clearly your experience is... limited. http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/ is hardly representative of all the mods available for the ie games neither. arcanum, because it sucked, had understandably fewer technically sophisticated fans who were willing to try and fix a broken game-- fewer mods. regardless, comparing games based on their fan made improvements is folly. am willing to applaud a game for it capacity to be modded and the ease with which it can be modded, but to compare strength of writing or balance or options based on fan made content is so obviously flawed that it really ain't worth further argument. hell, that may be one o' the few points that josh and Gromnir has agreed 'pon in the past. HA! Good Fun!

"Right because the only good patches are official patches." never said that. did observe that it is pretty tough to judge game base on fan content, no? am sure you will see the problems o' such a silly approach if you considers. maybe talks with the bg community o' modders and try to figure out what game they is actually talking 'bout when they says they likes bg. Ajantis is the Best npc evar... if you gots v.5 o' the super secret mod pack by the Narflings 6 Group. huh? and yeah, the world o' arcanum were interesting... on paper. arcanum were far more interesting before you actually played the game. the world were relative unique and it were big. sadly, when actually played, all those little details didn't add up... game were less than the sum o' its parts 'cause it were put together so poorly. is no different than all the pointless and inane dialogue choices they tried to force into toee. sure, you gots a dozen different dialogue options that would change based on your character development choices, but all the choices led to same place: dullsville. offering choices just so that you can say you provided choices is bad design. HA! Good Fun!

is more than a few recipes in which we utilize mushrooms (we makes a mean bigos), but the idea o' mushrooms seems to offend-- just can't get around the fungi aspect. fermented potables (we don't drink alcohol, but we does cook with it frequent) and cheeses is something we enjoy much in our food, but we gots a unreasoned prejudice 'gainst fungi... typically use only when cooking for others... impress the ladies. HA! Good Fun!

you must be from the internets. I'm trying to understand if he actually played Arcanum with the content patches and why he think story and combat was the point of the game. Not to mention what the **** was going with this top 5 characters thing. a crpg where combat AND story is incidental? is that what you are suggesting? character development options not count for anything if is so unbalanced or pointless as is not matter how you develop. multiple paths not mean squat if the multiple paths not lead anywhere interesting. and ambition... HA! ambition is not inherent good or bad. applaud troika ambition if it makes you feel better. however, their failure and our boredom were not in anyway diminished by a sublimated recognition o' troikan unfulfilled ambitions. ... am not knowing what content patches you reference or how such is relevant. Gromnir played arcanum. when game were initial unplayable 'cause o' technical problems we waited for patch... then game were unplayable 'cause iArcanum characters and combat weren't very interesting. is you referencing geekling fan-based patches that has been released over the years? lord knows how you rate a game based on such stuff... 'less that were the point o' the game (e.g. nwn). HA! Good Fun! ps before this thread spins complete off-track, am gonna repeat 2 points: 1) Fallout 1 & 2 were FULL o' camp humor. 2) arcanum as an example o' gaming goodness? HA!

yes, very funny... but it still not work. berreto grasso would maybe be fat cap... and in any event, there is no "porta" in Italian, right... is synonymous with Puerto? is a masculine noun. bella/bello = beautiful... likes from belladonna. so you get Porto Bello. beautiful door? almost never see portobello... is typical portabella or portabello. ... our latin ain't helping at all... fortis is door and bellus probable sounds right, but we is talking 'bout a thing rather than a person... pulcher? fortis pulcher? doesn't look right. what is we doing wrong. tell you what, just assume we said porcini 'stead o' portabello... which oddly 'nuff gets us closer to fat cap than did porto bello. porcino is like porcine, right? oh well. HA! Good Fun!

"EXACTLY! i don't get why the FO3'pologists keep ragging on FO2 as if that's the "be all, end all" of the debate. imo, Bethesda took the theme of the 50's influence way too far, made it corny (re: funny in a bad way) and made it their primary focus. i know Gizmo's brought this up...but in both FO1 & 2 those references weren't constantly in your face. things were more focused on how people had been evolving on the outside instead of "get ready kids, here's another wacky 50's reference/joke!"" if you not get that fo1 and fo2 had loads o' camp value humor, then we played a different game. the whole setting were dark and gritty... and funny. even the over-the-top death animations were funny. fo weren't post apocolyptic so much as it were a tounge-in-cheek recreation o' the 1950s pulp sci-fi mag and b-movie imaginings o' the post apocolyptic landscape. if the engine coulda handled, we got no doubt that they woulda' got a 50' chick in a bikini into fallout. also, arcanum were a waste o' hd space from start to finish. had loads o' potential (like most troika games,) but characters and plot were poorly developed and the combat were unbalanced an mindnumbing tedious. list your five favorite characters from a crpg... then list favorite ten or even favorite 15. arcanum, for all the characters in the game, had no genuine meorable characters. sure, some troika apologist will mentions virgil as cracking their personal top 10, but for honest folks there just weren't much character in the arcanum characters... and without character you not gonna have a story worth mentioning. turn our back for five minutes... HA! Good Fun!