metadigital

How was I being sexist? I especifically said i would not care if Revan was male or female in my first post. Show me my sexist comments. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Your point of view, whether intentional or not, is sexist. You are stating that -- for whatever reason, and they are hardly legitimate concerns -- characters that people have played in a game, PCs -- who, if the developers have done their job the audience have indetified with and share empathy with -- should be made in your image. That, even you don't regard it as sexist, is selfish, because you are advocating your wants over others to their exclusion. At the least you are insensitive. So take your pick. Are you sexist or selfish, or insensitive?

KotOR already appears in the SW universe. Phantom quoted reams of it in another thread.

Okay, I did answer your questions -- I just didn't want to participate in a flame war if that was your intention. KotOR3 (and there is no certainty it will even be published) would require some creative writing to encapsulate the different threads of the previous two games -- providing it is set after both. But that's what writers are paid for -- being creative. It really isn't that hard, quite a few people have theorised some quite interesting plots on these boards, and they are amateurs (no offence -- in the "not their day job" and not-professional interpretation). I think you are making a molehill into a mountain. It is quite simple to solve the dynamics without disenfranchising any of the audience. Which should be an aim of the game (pun unintended), whether stated or not.

It's random... Either a shop in some obscure part of the game, or the VERY LAST CONTAINER in the game will have one (with my luck, anyway... Don't know how you'll end up). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't encourage him! Q. Why wouldn't this poster use the Search function in the Spoilers forum to find the answer? A. Because they can just interupt any thread with their question and get a response. Alki, learn some netiquette and read the FAQ before posting.

It was someone (surprise!) who isn't involved now (so maybe they are a genius). Blame Azarkon, last page.

I added a fourth point, so you'll have to renumber. You seem to be trolling, but in cae you aren't I will answer your points. First Point. Making KotOR3 much more complicated? Are you kidding? Check out Bioware's Dragon Age (I'll quote for you), as it appears you can't be bothered to look back over the thread: 1.03: What is the storyline of Dragon Age? (Back to Top) For the first time, you choose how your character

I see no dispute regarding his gender. There may be doubts abou his sexuality, but everyone knows that he was a man. If he was a man who liked men, women or dog (creepy, I know) he would still be a man ( a very wierd, deeply disturbed man, bu a man nonetheless). And your point is? I mean. The society described in the SW universe, even by the time of KoTOR is far more advanced than ours, let alone the societies that Michelangelo and Socrates lived in. And there were plenty of witnesses for their actions. I mean Revan was easily one of the most proeminent figures of his time. I can accept that many people couldn't tell wheter Revan was man or woman, since Revan was always masked. But I can't really understand how people more close to him wouldn't know. Dind't Revan ever talked? By the sound of someone's voice you can tell if it's a man or a woman, even if you can't see the face. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My point is that it is entirely possible to be non-specific about it. Socrates is the father of philosophy. It has been said and re-stated innumerable times that all modern philosophy is just footnotes to Socrates. And we have doubts (albeit small ones) that he even existed. I was merely using this real-world analogy, and expanding this uncertainty to include the gender of the two figures in the KotOR games. And the benefits are: 1. Prevent issolating those in the community who like a female (or the opposite gender to the one that is arbitrarily selected -- and I'll lay a bet now that if one is selected it will be male, which re-inforces the twenty pages of debate in this thread). 2. Encourage people to go and play the games, so that THEY can decide. 3. Add some mystery to the whole epic story. 4. Head off sexist views, like the one you are espousing, whilst pretending to hide behind some artificial ex cathedra GL Papal Bull to "make the stories canon". It is quite possible that Revan and the Exile may be given a fixed gender and alignment. My point, to recap for those with short attention spans, is that it doesn't need to be and would be better if it weren't.

You've been watching too many repeats of Dynasty. :D

They are the Salmon Sisters -- Sith Assassin Fish.

Okay, I am having trouble with one concept. You seek to understand yourself better by analysing your interpretations of the real world ... (i.e. Empiricism) which is scientific method, yet you eschew science as unreliable for being a type of Inductive Logic, discussed by David Hume: Hume highlighted the fact that our everyday reasoning depends on patterns of repeated experience rather than deductively valid arguments. For example we believe that bread will nourish us because it has in the past, but it is at least conceivable that bread in the future will poison us. Someone who insisted on sound deductive justifications for everything would starve to death, said Hume. So you are a sort of progressive Inductive Reasoner, then, and not a strict conservative?

They won't? Why not? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Probably because it would cost money. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Money coming out from LA or Obsidian pocket? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good question. Presumably LA don't want to fund it and Obsidian don't either. But this is speculation because I haven't heard any confirmation beyond the Ass. Prod. saying that "We asked LA if we could make a content patch and they said 'No'."

There are at least 2 other topics: Here is one: An earlier thread And read the Restoration thread. (Should still be on the first page.)

Maybe one of the deciding factors for the rushed end was that Obsidian hadn't completed the writing ... so it wasn't submitted to LA, and conswquently they haven't worked out the "canon".

They won't? Why not? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Probably because it would cost money.

First of all, that's not a video game. That's a movie. We can't make Leia into a guy either, but nobody's going to protest, because that's a set story--one person's vision, not an RPG, which is the player's vision. That you would even compare the two mediums says nothing good about your ability to apply common sense to this situation. Second, did you ever actually SEE what's under those robes? And don't you think Anakin is rather androgynous anyway? Metadigital's scenario is all too credible! A video game in the Star Wars universe. And everything in SW is set. According to Lucas, who has the real word over everyone here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It is not necessary to give Revan/Exile an alignment or gender in order to explain the stories of both games. Keeping the genders and alignments ambiguous would add some intrigue and interest to their stories, inviting the audience to go and find out for themselves. And it's not like history doesn't have any mysterious people in it. There are some people who dispute that Socrates was a real person! (All we know about Socrates was written by his students, Plato and Xenaphon, so the argument is that Socrates was a rhetorical device to prevent these two from being incarcerated for heretical views.) There is also a lot of dispute about the gender of Michelangelo; some say he was homosexual, others asexual, still others claim heterosexual. (Not exactly like male/female, but this is only five hundred years ago -- Revan and Exile were 4000 years before the Galactic History was written, and there were few witnesses to their exploits.) And your out-of-context quote of GL (was he talking specifically about the role-playing variations of KotOR, or are you misquoting his comments on the films?). So, it doesn't have to be set, if LucasArts are clever. (And yes, there are a number of interpretations to that last sentence, and I mean them all.)

Ahhhh. Thankyou. I knew I'd seen him somewhere. Ah, Tron. Now that was a breakthrough! I was watching a movie today: Earth versus the Flying Saucers, and I have to say, apart from the odd Mystery Science Theatre 3000 dialogue moment ("It's made of solid electricity") the special effects for brilliant (for 1956). I think the black and white film made a lot of difference to the splicing; I haven't seen that done quite so well until Star Wars in 1977 (which, of course was colour). :cool:

Have you not bothered to search for any of the existing patch threads in this forum? If you had, and they aren't hard to find, you would know that they isn't going to be any content added by the patches. There is an unofficial team in the KotOR2 playing community who are putting together a mod that will add some of the content about which you speak. They are working in their own time, using their own resources and receiving nothing but praise from the rest of the community. So, No, there won't be any new content with any of the Obsidian patches, because LucasArts has denied permission to do so.

To illustrate, let me quote from Bioware's new Dragon Age FAQ: 1.03: What is the storyline of Dragon Age? (Back to Top) For the first time, you choose how your character

You proceed from a false premise. It is not necessary to have Revan's gender set in order for Revan to appear again (look at K2, even though they managed to leave a lot of buggy references to "he" in the she path). I've said it before and I'll say it again: it just takes a little (okay, a lot) more effort to write a cohesive, cogent, immersive and exciting story that involves all the different threads woven into it. It doesn't matter if the nemesis, for example, is a male or female. Just write for both. Simple plan, a little complex to implement. Writers feel like they've accomplished something, players feel like they have experienced something and publishes/developers feel like they've earned something. All go on to successful, fullfilling lives and the world is a better place. The end. :cool:

Well said. I don't know why, but I have been confusing the two new games: Jade Empire and Dragon Age. Dragon Age ... hmm, not much chance of not being about elves, dwarves and orcs, then. Second point: Yes, having mutliple previous story endings makes for a more complex plot. SO WHAT? Why are they paying a (team of) writer(s) to do, practice their grammar? Honestly, there are only a few permutations that they have to worry about: LS/DS and male/female and the effect on companions and possibly love interests. And quite often a lot of these can be interchanged. It's not rocket science. It's their job.

Wynne, I like your thinking. :cool:

Welcome back! What is your "romantic" view? I am intrigued ... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I read an interesting review in the Sunday Times, yesterday, about the reprinting of Harry G. Frankfurt's "On Bull-nautghywordforcrap". Frankfurt is a Philosophy Professor emeritus from Yale, where he wrote the book as a treatise on the existence of a small trend that has since become endemic in our culture. Celebrity creation, promotion, publicity, advertising imagery (think cigarettes), etc. The definition he uses is that, unlike outright lying or telling the truth -- which both share a respect for the truth in trying to conceal it or reveal it -- the BSer is not connected with, or concerned with, the truth. The BSer may not deceive us, or even intend to do so, either about the facts or what she thinks the facts to be. What she does attempt to deceive us about is her enterprise. Her only defining characteristic is that she is misrepresenting what she is up to. (He was thinking about adding an appendix on spin to the reprint, but couldn't agree on a suitable definition.) What is relevant to our discussion is Frankfurt's attack on the post-modern philosophers. Postmodernists believe objective truth about the world was unattainable; all that remained was the pursuit of the truth about oneself, the project of sincerity. But it is much, much harder to establish the truth about onesself than about the world. To quote Frankfurt: "As conscious beings, we exist only in response to other things, and we cannot know ourselves at all without knowing them ... Our natures are, indeed, elusively insubstantial -- notoriously less stable and less inherent than the natures of other things. And insofar as this is the case, sincerity itself is [bS]." Which is kind of what we have been dancing around. Your search for enlightenment is doomed if you choose to ignore your senses; because the human mind is nothing if not a huge filter of experience, re-filtering and re-focusing the empirical into some sort of meaningful subjective lore. In effect we can see the workings of the mind by the way it sees the world. (Sort of like how what someone writes tells us more about them then the subject on which they are writing.) So here I am saving you from a bleak existence doomed to never know your own mind or the true nature of being. No need to thank me. My feelings of smug altruism are all that I need. "

Azarkon: you have failed to consider the additional scenario that some males (e.g. me) enjoy playing female PCs. This makes the schism between "male-oriented" (FPS, etc) and "female-oriented" / gender-neutral games (RPG, sims, etc) less pronounced. (It may exacerbate the body-dysmorphism diseases of the virtual and real worlds, however.) Reminds me that I read about a charity that had a MMOG where you were randomly generated a character somewhere in their Earth-simulcrum world, so that you really end up re-rolling life. Highest percentage would see you in the developing world, as a child-labourer or a statusless female whose life consists of labouring until a premature death from some disease that can be cured in the developed world. (I read about it in a recent gamer magazine, but I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment.) Wynne: Obi-Wan Kenobi does reveal that Darth Vader is more machine than man. Perhaps the surgeon droids thought better of cybernetic testes ... after all he wouldn't need them for anything! "

Zoisite: thanks. Zerion: and agin. Vashanti: who is that? I gots to know.

Why do you have flying Jedis?