metadigital

Maybe she is the big sister of that one on the cargo bay on Dantooine in K1 (or the super-fast-growing infant herself)? "

Very interesting article. I must say I had bought the myth, so I am interested to hear the nay-sayer's voice. I have read a lot of the references except the EE "Doc" Smith Lensmen series. (I think I did try to read one of his novels once, with little success.) I agree with his conclusion (that due credit should be paid to the gloriously unappreciated Sci Fi trailblazing masters of the Pre- and Post-WWII years), but I am not sure about some of his waypoints. It is all well and good to say Coruscant is a copy of Trantor (which is true), but is a planet-spanning city a particularly unique thought? Similarly, it is quite difficult to say that all GL's references came from this Golden Era of Sci-Fi ... but a lot of the writers have been influenced from the classics, too; making conclusions regarding originality difficult. (To quote his example, both SW and the Foundation series use the most famous Empire in Western literature.) As for our discussion, the relevant quote is: "Crystaline semi-sentient life forms attuned to their personalities"; which implies that the Force is nothing but an extra-sensory power used by a separate (parallel) race of organisms. The Force isn't fate. The Force isn't neurtal, either. The Force is analogous to the human race: made up of multiple (millions?) of these semi-sentients, of all alignments, whose combined will affects the universe in concert with the "Lensmen" Jedi. So we are back with dualism (good lenses/crystals/midichlorians for LS and bad ones attuned to the DS characters) and non-determinism / free will. The Force is just a small "f" force, like gravity, weilded by the symbiotic semi-sentient partners of each "Lensman" Jedi in accordance with their wishes. So maybe Kreia might have uncovered a well-hidden plot by this race of lenses/crystals/midichlorians to enslave the races of this universe (True, True Sith, anyone ) ... and the only way to win this war is to attack the Force. Kreia was right, she is the True Prophet! PS What do the turtles represent in Rocky?

I have heard some interteresting counter views: Grass -- includes Wheat, Barley, Rice, and Corn or Maize -- which have domesticated the nomadic tribes of homo sapiens sapiens (they also being relative newcomers to the Earth, only 11 million years -- so no Dinosaurs ate grass). Armoured arthropods -- crabs, scorpions, cochroaches (sic: the rude-filter didn't like the real spelling ), centipedes, etc, etc -- whose numbers are greater than all other life forms put together and who haven't changed since they conquered the hostile terrain outside the oceans over 200 million years ago. So we humans look pretty puny in comparison: we're only here because a freak asteroid hit the Earth and killed off most of the Dinosaurs (sharks and crocodiles take a bow) 67 million years ago; had that not happened would we be typing with taloned hands? And the pertinent question is: Did God send the asteroid? Was it fated to strike at just the time to let puny mammals become the dominant species on this planet? :D

1. You are playing semantics. The Force determines the outcome of the (seemingly) random events in history, therefore it is fate. Determine indicates some sort of decision has been made, which implies a will and perhaps consciousness. de

It's the whiney one outside you have to talk to, not the leader.

Polish / Italian. Why? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Cats and I just have this insatiable thirst for information. One day I expect it all to connect and make sense of the universe, a sort of synchronistic critical mass of trivia ... Also, your English is a damn sight better than my Italian. (Quite common really, as people who speak English think they don't have to speak another language. Stupid people: more Chinese speak English as a secondlanguage than all of the English cultures together.) I guess I'd better go and study over in Italy -- the archeology of the Roman Empire, Vatican Art History, Tuscan Cookery or similar -- to improve my language skills. Ahhhhhh, to dream .... :D

Not for me... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You can fix it with .

You get it when you talk to the Koonda adm about how people seem not to trus the Jedi and in fact dislike them. She says a lot of things about why they don

First of all, can we can these "official" threads? This is just troll-bait; we've already got one neo-nazi in the dicsussion. That looks like one of my Revan's, too: and I bought that suit for her, too! (First game, after that I went Jedi powers-first, and used the robes.) As for K2, I wouldn't have picked any of the males, they all looked effeminate. The black dude with some hair was probably the coolest. In K1 the different classes had different physical characteristcs, so that they didn't all look like manaquins from a store window. You'll know we've reached true gender equality when there are options for a gay relationship. Oh come on, don't tell me you didn't suspect young Obi and Ani ... "

5 Years is a long time to be unconcious... isn't it? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No. I wouldn't want to play a game of Rugby after waking up, but one of the main purposes proposed for stasis is long-haul space flights. I think your ideas have merit and are eminently pragmatic. The easiest (read: cheapest) plot for a third game will be to repeat the mechanics of the first two. Now, this may or may not include a finale that has the avatars from the preceeding games, the references to which would be garnered through conversations. (I suspect -- please may I be wrong -- this will be in the "too hard" basket; either that or a generic character build for both Revan and Exile.)

An excellent Quote. One that desparately needs to be translated into Russian Language and Thinking. I suppose that was what Alexander Solzenitzen was trying to do. Well, the Bible claims to be the patient findings of an omniscient God, so the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written really don't amount to much in comparison. As with most athiests, Asimov imagines that Christians are forcing their dogma down everyones throat. I can't ever remember a "Christian Authority" forcing their feeble and childish beliefs on me, or invading my school, library and home. I do however, remember the Communists doing it regulary in the Soviet years. And I personally resent that bitterly. Here here. I can only imagine that sort of indoctrination; I have been fortunate enough in the lottery of life to be born into a free country. (Asimov was jewish, though I guess he was referring to Christianity when he speaks of the Bible.) I agree whole-heartedly. Everyone should have the right to believe what ever they want. But you probably never lived in a place where there was no freedom to think against or doubt the social norm, have you? Touch

Nay, All hearts are rotten with it... Thats what I remember thinking...I can't for the life of me remember the title of the book! Curses! :"> <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I checked the book just now, and I typed it correctly. It was talking about the wicked, not the obvious evil in everybody... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's FarimirK inculcating his theology again. " Maybe FarimirK deserves a glass of milk and some crumbs, then, for reading it before ...? :D

Welcome back. What do you mean you haven't got time? Go back and read the thread in its entirety, then write it out ten times as punishment. It is not clear whether Solo is being skeptical about the Force per se, the will of the Force, or anything further than cause-and-effect in a physical universe (eschewing all forms of metaphysics, including small "f" force and determinism). It would have been enlightening to have Solo make his revised philosophy clear, after seeing the miraculous handiwork of the Skywalker family. (Certainly he seems to be somewhat along the road to belief in something by the end of the OT.) Oi vey. Still, your evidence (and consequential tenuous hypothesis that many of the inhabitants of SW believe that the Force has a will) is about as strong as any other we have to go on. Certainly, too, Obi-Wan Kenobi's philosphical explanation doesn't include seperate good and evil Forces, so dualism seems to be out. (Although Mr Kenobi has a history of "subjective recollection" of the truth, shall we say.) Whatever gets you up in the morning and through the day. (Digression: I was trying to find the JS Mill quote about rights and nose, and I found a similar one attributed to Oliver Wendell Holmes: "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.".) And, just for you, FarimirK "Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly." -Isaac Asimov PS Maybe an Ebon Hawk is a type of Hawk, not necessarily just the colour of the ship. You might like to base a ship on the Western Australian Black Swan, rather than the Canada Goose (shouldn't that be Canadian Goose?). So it could have been called the "Gun-metal-grey Chicken Hawk", but that doesn't have the same ring to it. :D

That was pretty funny. :D

What is your native language, may I ask?

It is also inconsistent with the New Trilogy (Aniken Skywalker being fatherless, a true bastard), although that doesn't mean it won't happen. " More likely we'll run into Yoda's uncle, or something. I think a viable beginning would be to have the Exile in stasis after the end of K2 ... the M5 explosion and destruction of his link with Kreia doing a sort-of Neo in Matrix 3 (although please let it be better than that movie was compared to the first). Part of the plot would be to revive to Exile, whilst the others (companions from K1/2) head off together (or, rather, in some group made up from their number ... depending on your choices.) I am all for having totally different companions based on alignment; take the Hanharr/Mira concept further.

Just save the game before you start a planet. Then you can go back and do the planet with a different set of companions. (Make it a smaller section, if you like, rather than a whole planet.) You'll soon get a feel for the characters -- especailly on Nar Shadarr, there seems to be a lot more interaction there.

Thank you, I was wondering when somebody was going to mention that. While the philisophical discussion is fascinating, let us not forget that George Lucas created "The Force" much like L. Ron Hubbard created "Scientology" (may his eyes be eaten by small rodents..Hubbards not Lucas.) As I recall George was reading a great deal of Joseph Campbell and Jung at the time he wrote Star Wars. Having said that, it seems to me that The Force is some kind of collective consciousness that is neither inherently good or bad. You as an individual can attempt to choose a side but with the understanding that one cannot exist without the other and any victory (Light over Dark) is only a temporary shift. And I think as an individual it would be impossible to see the whole picture and know for sure which side you were actually playing for. For example when Kriea points out that giving that Refugee credits actually set him up for a good pounding. I think the best we can do is simply....the best we can. For as a wise old woman once said "APATHY IS DEATH" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I wasn't aware of GL's reading of Jung, although I can certainly see evidence of it. I think it has become quite apparent that musing on the ACTUAL quidity of The Force is futile in the extreme; not simply because of its ineffableness, but because GL has eclectically borrowed bits of pop-philosophy in a very expedient manner, to satisfy immediate plot requirements. So instead of a trail of evidence to lead us to the higher consciousness of The Force, we have truisms scattered about SW to emphasise a particular point that GL is making at the time. I think that makes for a very one-dimensional philosophy, personally. But still, reagardless of our (traditional SW Force) belief, there is more to the Universe than is dreamed of in GL's philosophy (apologies to W. Shakespeare and all his audiences). So therefore I say unto you, it is entirely possible that Kreia is The Prophet, The One who will counter to autocratic predestination we know as the benevolent Force. Join the counter-Force; shake off your bonds and become free! Decide your own destiny! And even if that destiny is a premature death, live well -- confident that your death was as free as your life, and not some small contrivance in the plan of some meaningless greater opera. :D :cool: PS I second the motion that L Ron Hubbard's eyes be eaten by small rodents, adding that they should be diseased rodents. (I'm not sure if he was cremated, though.) Stupid gnostic beliefs. Thetans, hah! Stupid midichlorians.

Did anyone hear something? " God does not exist, there is no proof! where's the scientific data? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Occham's Razor is a formalised method for dismissing logical falacies, e.g. the Watchmanker's Father. It doesn't just say there is no proof (which there cannot be, unless we find a babel fish); it says a god is not necessary, and superfluous, for that explanation. Stress on the need to find a better argument, not more proof. It's more a logical flaw, than a lack of data. Well, atheism is just another creed to me. The sentence I quoted is as much a dogma as the immortality of the spirit. People who wield a dogma as a counter to another dogma always bring up a chuckle with me. Yes I tend to agree, although it can also be a lot more serious than that, as well. Fundamentalists, I believe ( " ) are actually a form of evil. I am quite a libertarian, I've noticed, but I hate those who would stiffle opinion with dogma. Those people who think they have all the answers -- or, at least, all the answers that we are allowed to have. Democracy specfically, and human culture in general, needs to cross-polenate ideas to remain sanguine. (Probably why the established Churches produce splinter groups after years of doctrinal orthodoxy.) "Freedom of speech and freedom of action are meaningless without freedom to think. And there is no freedom of thought without doubt." -Bergen Evans Indeed. People who claim to use logic to explain things that logic was never meant to explain strike me as either extremely arrogant, or extremely narrowminded. I don't know what's worse. Narrowminded, definitely: arrogance can be countered. Can't argue with that. "Anything goes" just leaves us back where we started, the first question of any philosophy is where do we begin?; what do we accept as "given"? I think that once we can explain the "mechanism" we call reality (with science), then we will be in a far better place to guess at the other unseen elements (metaphysics). I caught the cover of a New Science weekly the other day, they were heralding the re-popularising of the Victorian theory of ether (not the gas that was used for anaesthetic; the solution that contained the universe that gave its name to "Ethernet") ... might that not be equated on some level to The Force? :cool:

There was a consensus amongst the Jedi Masters that the Exile was a leader. (That normally equates to charisma in the real world, but that's another topic for another day.) So the wound/echo thingie that no-one seems to know the exact nature of has indeed made the Exile more powerful, but it is the leadership question that needs to be answered. After all, the Exile may have been an average joe jedi, but she was a superior leader, and jedi wanted to follow, even if they weren't her padawan. that's why Vrookie-babie got so peeved when the Exile went to Malachor ... Whether the "leadership" is derived from the wound, caused the wound or is co-incidental to the wound is never explained nor explored in the game. :cool:

Ditto with everyone above. But I voted for the little astromechs.

Oh wait, maybe they did... ... Going a bit off topic, does anyone else think Malak got that metal jaw because he was hurt by HK's meatbag-statements? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It is a well known fact that Malak had a shaving accident with a cursed (-20) blade. "

What you say about Bandon can easily be said about Nihilus. I mean, what an anti-climax. And that voice -- was it me, or was he totally unintelligable. I needed subtitles. And what a fight! Planet-eating monster, indeed. At least the jedi on genosis were outnumbered about 1000:1. And that clown mask -- please.

Now you're just stirring up trouble. But yes, I think my idea is a good one. It'll never be done though. Still, maybe I can write a story about it ....

What was that all about? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nur Ab Sal was salivating over Kaftan Barlast's last avatar. This is off topic but I have to say it: your previous avatar was giving me pleasant thoughts. <{POST_SNAPBACK}>