Livegood118

Thanks!

Hi everyone, Sorry to bring an old thread back from the dead but I found myself planning a Rogue and couldn't get any definitive answer to the questions asked in this thread from searching the forums, namely: 1. Are Crit multipliers calculated off base damage or multiplied off total damage dealt? 1a. If they're multiplied, does the multiplication take place before or after damage reduction is factored in? 2. Do Annihilation and Durgan Steel stack properly now?

That's fantastic – thanks very much. Don't forget effigy's resentment too! Fwiw my expectation of the talents – and I'm sure probably a lot of other peoples' – would have been that Weapon Focus, Marksman, Apprentice Sneak, Dangerous Implements, Penetrating Shot and any other source of "neutral" damage penetration (e.g. vambraces, effigy's resentment) all apply to each of the three stages (kalakoth initial hit, kalakoth AoE, Blast) and that penetrating blast only applies to strengthen the DP on the final blast effect because it's very weak. Under this scenario you'd have 9DP on the Initial Hit, 9DP on the Kalakoth AoE and then 19DP on the Blasts.

Next Step in my groundbreaking research: Weapon Focus: Whatever affects the initial hit of Kalakoth’s Minor Blights Weapon Focus: Whatever does not affect the Kalakoth Minor Blights AoE Weapon Focus: Whatever appears to affect SOME blasts, but not all of them (I literally cannot think why this would be the case, but it was evident that some of the blasts that I made with Kalakoths attacked with 93 Accuracy while others attacked with 99 – maybe they were the blasts that came from the initial Kalakoth hit?). Marksman affects the initial hit of Kalakoth’s Minor Blights Marksman affects the Kalakoth’s Minor Blights AoE Marksman does not affect the Blasts I don't have the technical knowledge of the game to verify whether or not Dangerous Implement affects the Kalakoth's Initial Hit, the Kalakoth AoE or the subsequent Blasts but I think this might be possible if you can tell whether or not on a normal hit you're hitting for more than your max after DT is eliminated. If dangerous implements only applied to the initial hit it would be fairly useless for a blights build

Just bumping this topic with further info after experimentation with Kalakoth's Minor Blights: – Penetrating Shot (-5DR), Ryona's Vambraces (-3DR) and Effigy's Resentment DoC (-1) DR all apply to the initial hit from Kalakoth's Minor Blights – No damage penetration whatsoever applies to the AoE Affect from Kalakoth's Minor Blights – No damage penetration whatsoever, other than that granted from Blast and Penetrating Blast, applies to the crushing blasts generated by the blast talent – Apprentice Sneak attack applies to the initial hit from Kalakoth's Blights and the AoE effect from Kalakoth's Blights, but does not apply to the crushing blasts generated by the blast talent I had no way of measuring whether or not Dangerous Implements or other +% damage talents (e.g. vs Primordials) affect the Kalakoth AoE or the Crushing Blasts. Can a Dev confirm that all of this is working as intended? It seems somewhat inconsistent in places and is pretty relevant for builds. For instance if penetrating shot is working as intended then there's actually very little point taking it on a blights build as the bulk of your damage comes from AoE and it would be more efficient to attack more frequently. As an alternative, it might actually be better for the user to take a +elemental damage talent or a vs. monster type talent instead, or to increase their accuracy. Likewise, if Dangerous implements only applies to the initial Blights hit, and not the Blights AoE or the surrounding crushing blasts from the talent then it seems kind of crappy also in lieu of maybe a +elemental damage talent or a vs. enemy type talent. I'm on the most up to date version of the game.

I personally haven't used it a lot but many people swear by Citzals Spirit Lance. With Delterious Alacrity (1.5), Citzals Lance (1.2) and the gloves of Swift Action (1.15) you get a 2.07 recovery modifier, which means you could wear a Durganised 25% recovery penalty armour with basically no penalty. At level 16 Deflection could be stacked to (20 (Base) + 45 (Levels) + 5 (Superior Deflection) + 75 (Hardened Veil) = 145) relatively easily which is pretty damn good however you're going to be much more reliant on Hardened Veil as without you'll probably be using Llengrath's displaced image each fight and your deflection will be around 100 – which is OK if you're a fighter or a Monk on POTD but I'd say it's not fantastic for a Wizard. Then again, most people say the only thing you need to optimise Citzals in terms of talents is two handed weapon talent so it's not like you couldn't take that and leave the option to use it always open to yourself.

Do you have more insight to share on why you think Drawn in Spring and Persistence are so good?

Sorry – my main point that I forgot to make is that one your recovery bonus is high enough dual wield really provides no benefit other than, perhaps, a specific item property on the second weapon that you're using in comparison to a shield (for instance, more +speed or some kind of proc like prone).

Nice build. Something to take in to consideration is how +speed enchantments stack in this game. So, for instance, with Durgan Steel, a fast weapon and deleterious alacrity of motion you can really minimise your recovery penalty with a small shield: 1.15 (Durgan Weapon) * 1.20 (Sword of Daenysis) * 1.15 (Durgan Shield) * 1.5 (Deleterious Alacrity of Motion) = 2.38 -.2 (Vulnerable Attack) = 2.18 This means that you can wear an armour with like 35% recovery penalty that's been durganised and attack pretty much with no recovery while getting a huge deflection and reflex benefit from small shields and weapon and shield style (which is more valuable than the extra DR). This also frees up your gloves slot which means you can use Ryona's Vambraces for another -3 DR, and with the Sword of Daenysis and Vulnerable Attack that means -11 DR per hit which is pretty good going. Maybe you could whip out Spelltongue when you know for sure you're going to be fighting an enemy that has buffs to steal (or keep Daenysis and use wall of draining once you're high level enough). Something I've been thinking about is the synergy between charm/dominate/confuse and spelltongue. For instance, part of the problem with spelltongue is that when you're attacking enemies that don't have buffs you won't be prolonging your own buffs. However, if you could quickly charm one of those enemies and give them a long duration (but crappy) buff, you'd be able to steal a good 40 sec of extra arcane veil from them. A level 14 Wizard with Little Saviour (+25 Deflection), Sword and Shield Style (+6 Deflection), Hardened Veil (+75 Deflection), Base Deflection (+20) and Deflection gained from levels (+39) would have 165 Deflection, which is putting you in to the range where you've very unlikely to get hit. Higher Dex might be better as well under such a set-up for more frequent hits.

Hi – sorry I'm not in a position to send a save file but I was experimenting with a couple of Wizard builds yesterday evening I noticed the following two things when experimenting: 1. Penetrating Shot and the -DR portion from Ryona's Vambraces do not apply to "Blasts" triggered by the Wizard Blast talent. DR reduction observed was -10 when it should have been -18. This was with a build using Blast, Penetrating Blast, Weapon Focus, Interrupting Blows, Dangerous Implements, Penetrating Shot, Apprentice Sneak. Only the -10DR from the two blast talents themselves seemed to apply. The bonus from sacrificing the Devil of Caroc and Vulnerable attack might be something to test also. 2. Llengrath's Blunting Wisdom is bugged to hell and damage and accuracy increased with every shot. By the time I'd let off about 8-9 shots my accuracy was at a permanent 244 and the Superb +% bonus was in the thousands. When hovering over the accuracy thing in the character sheet it seemed as if my character's weapon focus was applying multiple times. I can provide my save file if these bugs can't be replicated by anyone else.

brindle .............. is that you?

Add my name to the pile as well, I made a topic about this a while ago shortly after 3.0 was released https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84194-named-npc-companion-attributes-changes-reset-after-reload/ It is a great shame.

Btw, I've never really used Citzals but it seems to require a lot of talents that don't synergies with other stuff. Your mileage may vary.

Hi all, I was thinking of playing a wizard main for my next play through and was wondering how everyone's thinking has evolved on them since 3.0? The last time I played a Wizard i focuses him mostly around blights, nowadays that build would be something like 17 might, dex, per and int, 7 con and 3 resolve with Blast, Penetrating Blast, Penetrating Shot, Weapon Focus, Sneak Attack, Dangerous instruments, Marksman and probably Arcane Veil. This kind of build really shines against trash mobs. I generally wouldn't worry about interrupts because you save so many spells by using the blights you should always have CC spells on hand if you need them. Nowadays I'm thinking you could use Ryonas Vambraces and sacrifice the Devil of Caroc as well for a total of -19 DR penetration on your blasts. Has anyone tried anything like this recently with high level wm2 content? That's a hell of a lot of talents to spend focusing on just one spell so I'm wondering if it's worth it. On the other hand I'm thinking about eschewing Melee/physical ranged attacks entirely by, somewhat ironically, using Abydons hammer for +4 Might and going for 18 might, per, int, 14 dex, 7 con and 3 resolve. With this approach I would go for Arcane Veil, Hardened Veil, Secrets of Rime (all the best elemental damage spells are frost), and then for non elemental spells probably some of the +damage vs enemy to keep boosting spell damage as high as possible (vessels, Wilders definitely - perhaps beasts for dragons too). The new bow spell seems pretty cool and could be incorporated in to any build and optimised through 2 or 3 talents (spirit of decay, weapon Focus). If you're playing a wood elf I probably wouldn't worry about getting marksman on top of that, seems like a waste given the alternatives. Maybe there's a happy medium between the talents that boost blights and the talents that boost the black bow and you could have a good hybrid physical build? Interested to hear peoples' views.

This seems like a bit of a shame really. I'd says there probably a large enough silent crowd of people in the same position as I am, though I get it if there are coding issues I suppose. Will the option to reroll stats for NPCs ever be implemented through the inn rerolls as is the case with PCs?

Hi, I was experimenting with different builds for Monks in Cragholdt by messing around with Zahua in the console e.g. adding battle forged, vulnerable attack, removing other talents. I'm on the most up to date beta version of the game. When I'm playing Pillars I like to use the NPC companions but with edited stats so that it's like making your own adventurer but you get all the story as well. When I use the console to edit Zahua's Attributes they do not remain that way after reloading my game. Adding in talents and abilities works completely fine but the attributes revert to the default Zahua attributes every time the game reloads. To my knowledge this was not an issue with the last stable version of the game but it's been a while since I've played now so can't confirm for certain.

For people's information I tried messing around with different bows on a Cipher at level 14 around Cragholdt and found that, universally (though anecdotally), a Durgan re-inforced Rain of Godagh field was the best weapon for generating focus (I didn't test stormcaller though). Outlander's Frenzy rocks for Cipher focus generation early on in a fight because you've got high int. With it you can get 1.2 * 1.15 * 1.25 = 1.725 reduction in recovery for like 18 secs. Once you've got time parasite triggered (which, with any more than three enemies present, will effectively last for the rest of the fight) you can then switch on penetrating shot with a smaller penalty than you otherwise would have had: 1.2 * 1.15 *1.5 = 2.07 (-.2 penetrating shot) = 1.87 recovery penalty. I can see though how before the above strategies become available that Lead Splitter + Vambraces + Penetrating Shot may be much more useful.

Hi Kaylon, can you confirm what you mean by the second paragraph here? As in, if a character is dual wielding without any other speed buffs and has two weapon style, does he get .2+.2 (for each weapon) modded to his recovery? No, it means that the speed bonuses you have on your left weapon will stack with your other speed bonuses. Oh ok sorry my bad!

Hi Kaylon, can you confirm what you mean by the second paragraph here? As in, if a character is dual wielding without any other speed buffs and has two weapon style, does he get .2+.2 (for each weapon) modded to his recovery?

I 100% agree with this – the reduced impact of recovery penalties definitely makes vulnerable attack more worthwhile and I think Dexterity should be prioritised in such a setup too. I think, given all the information as a whole, in the case of dual sabres with loads of lashes attached it's better to attack more often on the whole with those lashes than to have less attacks but to have -5 DR penetration.

OK thanks for the help guys. So after looking at the spreadsheet it appears that vulnerable attack is not worth it when you could go for a defensive talent instead. With accuracy equal to your opponent's defence, 2.13 Damage Mod, 13 Dexterity, 100% recovery bonus, 1.3 Crit Mod, 15% Hit to Crit and 10% graze to hit dual sabres have 30.53 DPS vs 0 DR, 21.26 vs 10 DR and 12 DPS vs 20 DR. (The Blaidh Golan (Durgan) + Gloves of Swift Action Setup). Under the same circumstances but with an 80% recovery bonus and -5 DR dual sabres do 24.6 DPS vs 0 DR, 20.88 vs 10 DR and 13.41 DPS vs 20 DR; so we can observe a slight improvement against high DR opponents and certainly not enough damage to spend a talent point on. (Same setup but with vulnerable attack). But with accuracy +15 Greater than your opponents defences, the 100% recovery setup has 39.50 DPS vs 0 DR, 28.60 DPS vs 10 DR and 17.70 DPS vs 20 DR, and the 80% recovery with vulnerable attack setup has 31.86 DPS vs 0 DR, 27.46 DPS vs 10 DR and 18.67 DPS vs 20DR. I'm still not sure how to work several of the Monk's lashes in to this however. For instance: Torment's Reach: 50% mod base damage vs 25% crush DR Turning Wheel: 0% – 50% mod base damage vs 25% fire DR Weapon Lash: 25% mod base damage vs 25% elemental DR Lightning Strikes: 25% mod base damage vs 25 elemental DR These lashes have a damage penetrating effect all of their own. For instance, on a target with 20 DR and you do 40 unmodified damage, the torment's reach crushing lash will do 20 vs 5 DR, and the same again for all hits with Turning Wheel and 10 wounds.This is essentially a free +10 damage DT pierce. Put another way, without vulnerable attack you get: Physical: 40 v 20 = 20 TR: 20 v 5 = 15 Turning Wheel: 0 – 20X v 5 = Y Weapon Lash: 10 v 5 = 5 Lightning Strikes: 10 v 5 = 5 Total Damage = 45 + Y Then with vulnerable attack you get 50 + Y, but are attacking with an 80% recovery rate rather than a 100%. I'm not sure where to go with the math from here. I want to determine whether it is more efficient to attack at -100% recovery without -5 DR rather than at 80% recovery with -5DR when the character in question is utilising lots of lash effects.

I actually just realised I did a whole load of math wrong and didn't take Armour recovery penalty properly in to account: DW Durgan Weps + Sanguine Plate (Durgan) + Frenzy + Vulnerable Attack + Two Weapon Fighting = 1.15*1.15*1.33 -0.35 -0.2 +0.2 = -41% recovery modifier DW Durgan Weps + Sanguine Plate (Durgan) + Frenzy + Two Weapon Fighting = 1.15*1.15*1.33 -0.35 +0.2 = 1.26 = -61% recovery modifier DW Durgan Weps + Sanguine Plate (Durgan) + Frenzy + Two Weapon Fighting + Vulnerable Attack + Gloves of Swift Action = -67% Recovery DW Durgan Weps + Blaidh Golan (Durgan) + Swift Strikes + Two Weapon Fighting + Vulnerable Attack = 1.65 - .10 = -55% recovery Modifier DW Durgan Weps + Blaidh Golan (Durgan) + Swift Strikes + Two Weapon Fighting = -75% recovery modifier DW Durgan Weps + Blaidh Golan (Durgan) + Swift Strikes + Two Weapon Fighting + Vulnerable Attack + Gloves of Swift Action = -80% recovery modifier DW Durgan Weps + Blaidh Golan (Durgan) + Swift Strikes + Two Weapon Fighting + Gloves of Swift Action = -100% recovery modifier I'll have to think about what this does to the results, I don't have it in me to do all the math again

One last thing: I think that in almost every circumstance, wearing armour or not, vulnerable attack works well with fists.

Also, finally, I'm not sure what role critical hits play in lashes one way or the other.

Hi all, Was just doing some sums re: the Monk class and thought I'd ask for peoples' views. My main question is as follows: On a dual wielding Monk build that uses a lot of lashes, is it worth the hit in terms of recovery time to take the Vulnerable Attack Talent? Assume following build 18 (25 Adjusted) 16 10 (13 Adjusted) 16 9 9 Sanguine Plate/Durgan Purgatory/Durgan Resolution, under effects of Swift Strikes (with lightning strikes) and Frenzy. Also let's not pick Scion of Flame to keep the maths simpler. Without Vulnerable Attack our recovery modifier is: 1.15 (Durgan) * 1.15 (Durgan) * 1.33 + 20 = 1.96 (See Kaylon's attack speed 2.0 Topic). With Vulnerable Attack our recovery modifier is: 1.76 Damage multiplier = 1.45 (Might) + 1.45 (Superb) + 1.2 (Savage Attack) + 1.15 (Sneak) = 2.25 Base Damage Multiplier Modified Sabre Base Damage: 29 – 43 (Rounded to nearest SF) My understanding of how lashes work is that they do not take in to account damage penetration and are calculated off the modified base damage dealt by the weapon before DP/DT are taken in to account. SO, lets assume a Monk has 7 wounds, the target's damage reduction is 16 for all types of damage and we roll a hit with our median damage amount (36). With Vulnerable Attack: Base Damage: 36 Physical Weapon Damage: 36 vs 16 DR (-5 Vulnerable Attack) = 25 Turning Wheel Lash: 35% of 36 vs 4 DR = 8 Weapon Lash (Corrode): 25% of 36 vs 4 DR = 5 Lightning Strikes: 25% of 36 vs 4 DR = 5 = 43 30/45 Attack Animation + Recovery. 45*0.24 = 11 30 + 11 = 41 41 @ 13 Dex = 41/1.09 = One Attack every 37 frames (do we add +4 frame universal recovery here?) Without Vulnerable Attack 38 Damage Total (Only thing modified by -DR is the Physical Weapon Damage) 30/45 Attack Animation + Recovery. 45*0.04 = 2 30 + 2 = 32 32 @ 13 Dex = 32/1.09 = One Attack every 29 frames (Again, do we add +4 frame universal recovery here?) So we have: 43 damage every 37 frames (Vulnerable) or 38 damage every 29 frames (No Vulnerable) LCD of 37 and 29 = 1073. Easier way to make the damage comparative is to make it per second, so 30 frames = 1 second. Vulnerable = 30/37 * 100 = 81.08%, 43*0.81 = 34 Damage per second Without Vulnerable = 30/29 * 100 = 103.45%, 38*1.0345 = 39 Damage per second Conclusion/Further Thoughts 1. Given that damage for lashes is dependent upon modified base damage before damage penetration is in taken in to account, and that a Monk Build such as the following is likely to be within the wound range/scenario with Frenzy I've highlighted quite often, it appears as if the +20% additive recovery modifier added by Vulnerable Attack is more of a hinderance than a help. Even with Swift Strikes (1.15*1.15*1.25 = 1.65 recovery mod) rather than Frenzy I believe this would still be the case as Two Weapon Style affects recovery mod linearly - i.e. it will be the same in most cases. 2. It's interesting what happens when you throw the Gloves of Swift Action in to the mix with Vulnerable Attack (1.15*1.15*1.15*1.33 - 1.20 (two weapons) +1.20 (Vulnerable Attack) = 2.02, no recovery). Vulnerable Attack might be worth it with the gloves, however before I started doing the sums I actually completely forgot about the Monk Raw Wound damage gloves (2% raw damage Lash per wound). It then becomes a decision between -100% Recovery + Vulnerable Attack vs -95% Recovery + Raw Wound Gloves. With 6 wounds and an average hit of 36 the gloves will add 4 damage, 10 wounds they'll add 7.2 damage. Given that instead of vulnerable attack your monk might be able to take Scion of Flame instead to increase damage without any kind of corresponding penalty this may be preferable (and a defence buff vs fire). Or, if you want to go full offence in your talent Choices without any defensive talents at level 16 you could go: Savage Attack Two Weapon Fighting Sneak Attack Weapon Focus Lightning Strikes Lesser Wounds Vulnerable Attack Scion of Flame and forego the Monk Gloves for the Gloves of Swift Action, -100% recovery and -5 Damage Penetration from vulnerable attack. SO: I would say that under the circumstances I've described above (Sanguine Plate, Durgan Weapon, Durgan Weapon) that Vulnerable Attack is not worth it unless you also have the Gloves of Swift Action, which will increase your recovery modifier when using Vulnerable Attack from -76% to -102%. (1.15*1.15*1.15*1.33 -.20 +.20 = -102%). This extra consistency, not dependent on wounds, comes at the cost of a talent point (and maybe another char could benefit from those gloves) and a theoretical lower max damage than what would have been available with your monk gloves had they been walking around in really high wound ranges. – A point in to Heart of the Storm might make more sense than vulnerable attack. Let's say you have a lightning lash weapon and lightning strikes on at the same time, that's 2 lashes vs 25% DR. Assume you hit for the average of modified 36 base against an opponent with 16 DR. 36*.25 = 9*1.2 (Heart of the Storm) = 10.8 - 4 = 6.8 *2 = 13.6: ordinarily this would have done 10 damage without Heart of the Storm and you get a -5 permanent lightning resist in exchange. – I am not certain how Torment's reach factors in to this and everything I've said may have been wrong when this is taken in to account. As a Full Attack torment's reach has no recovery between the two hits, which means that the penalty from vulnerable attack matters much less.