Livegood118

Thanks so much to Kaylon for doing the math for this thread, it's made me rethink a lot of my builds and made high attack speed tactics even more viable. Can anyone confirm the following math for me: Fighter/10 Dex/Sanguine Plate/DW Sword of Daenysis (Durgan) + Spelltongue (Durgan) Attacked speed mod = 1.15 (Durgan Wep) * 1.15 (Durgan Wep) * 1.1 (Spelltongue) * 1.33 (Sanguine Frenzy) * 1.2 (Sword of Daenysis) = -132% Armour Penalty = 50% (Base Sanguine) - 20% (Armoured Grace) - 15% (Durgan Armour) = 15% Two Weapon Fighting = -20% Vulnerable Attack = +20% Total Recovery Bonus = -132% (Attack Speed Mod) + 15 (Armour Penalty) - 20 (Two Weapon Fighting) + 20 (Vulnerable Attack) = -114% Therefore, 0 frames with .14 recovery% to spare

god now I need to learn everything again

Seriously!? As in 1.33*1.2 = 1.596*1.15 = 1.8354 *1.2 = 2.20? Is that working as intended? As far as I knew every bonus in the game was additive

I know this thread is only for "general" Barbarian chat,but if we're getting in to further optimisation discussion I'd just like to talk about the value of Dex on a Barb. Barbs are one of the few classes with a lot of good innate recovery reducing abilities. Frenzy (-33%) and Bloodlust (-20%) alone give you -53% to recovery. If you've got Durgan Steel that's another -15%, then add on a fast weapon and you've got another -20% = -88% Recovery. If you want to go over-kill you can throw on the gloves of swift action too, though I don't think they'd make sense given you can use the same slot to boost your accuracy by a lot. Under high recovery conditions – which necessarily entails a reduction in the total amount of frames involved in animation/recovery – the value of Dex is diminished because it effectively modifies your total frames like the following: Y/X (where Y = total animation + recovery frames and X = Action speed modifer + 1). So, with 60 total frames and 20 Dex your total attack+recovery frames would be: 60/1.3 = 46.15 (-13.85) With 40 Attack frames and 20 Dex your total attack+recovery frames are: 40/1.3 = 30.77 (-9.23) Then a Barbarian with a two hander and 90% Recovery = 33/1.3 = 25.38 (-7.62) This math isn't completely precise but the general gist is that Dex actually has diminishing returns with lower relative numbers of frames. Just something to think about, particularly where more points in Perception could be giving you some poorly needed accuracy.

Your key stats are Might/Int/Per. Per will be more valuable if you are playing on Path of the Damned because of higher defences on enemies relative to character progression. So, if you're playing on Normal/Hard, take Sensuki's Stats. If you're playing on POTD and you've got a couple of good CC chars in your party, personally, I would go with: 17 10 10 17 17 07 If you don't, bring resolve up to 10 and then 16 for stats.

Does anyone have the information on hand about the actual % increase in damage and accuracy from a Disengagement Attack? I was just thinking that it's something I've never actually come across.

Man I'd love it if someone could post a video of stormcaller ranger with fast attack speed and Twin Shots in action, it's been something I've been thinking about for AGES now but I haven't been able to play the game.

Woe unto those who post in a brindle thread

Sounds very interesting. Any chance you could capture a video of a few fights to see it in action?

The easiest way to visualise it for me is that the Barb's DPS increases by a factor of the number of enemies in range. Let's say there are 10 enemies with 100 Deflection and the Barb has 100 Accuracy (25 Base + 39 from levels + 6 from Per + 12 from Weapon + 9 from Bracers + 6 from Weapon Focus = 97) and assuming there's no hits to crits or grazes to hits (which there probably would be in reality). After Might and all modifiers let's assume the Barb does something like 28-49 damage per hit and that the Barb can attack once every 1.5 secs (which is very feasible and probably slower than they'd be attacking with a fully optimised build). Got Vengeful defeat? If your Barbarian dies it's an extra attack against every single enemy in range with Carnage applying to every single hit. Got second chance? Do that when you die again. Got Heart of Fury? That's another Full attack against every enemy in range. Each full attack, which could conceivable happen 6-7 times based on how surrounded you are, will do roughly the same amount of damage above (though take in to account DR) – with more if it's something with a modifier like Heart of Fury or Barbaric Blow. Even if a Barbarian dies immediately after being thrown in to a large group of mobs they'll probably do more damage than a Rogue, Fighter, Paladin or Monk will be able to contribute in an entire fight where accuracy=deflection, never mind where you've got your enemies CCd and the Barb will be even more effective. Give the Barb something like the Grey Sleeper that procs paralyse on 10% of hits and crits so that he/she gives everybody aids as well. The effects get better and better with more enemies on the field. I promise I will not post about the Barbarian anymore – Teioh_White has expressed it much better than I have

These two don't stack. It seems to stack with pretty much everything, but when I ran tests for my crit build I could never get the Durgan enchant to convert a hit to crit for as long as the spell was on. When the spell wore off, Durgan kicked in. This seems weird – my understanding was that enchantments from different sources will always stack: e.g. - Talents/Innate Odd Level Abilities - Modals - Spells/"Cast" Abilities - Weapons - Shields - Armour and other equipment Is the Durgan thing intended or a bug as far as you know?

Actually, you could be an Orlan too and an additional +10% for 65% Hits to Crits

Yeah of course, as you have clarified, you can give your barb a weapon and he may or may not die when he enters melee combat. The point we are making is that they are overall probably the weakest class and you have stated the AOE affliction build needs a rethink after the latest patch, man seriously it never worked in the first place on POTD, even before the patch. The accuracy was to low and the enemies deflection was to high to crit and land these afflictions. As I have said before, on POTD, even with my rogue maxed to the absolute max with the highest accuracy with reckless assault I could not consistently land crits often enough to apply these afflictions with those weapons to one single enemy that was half a challenge to kill that often. To say the barb could do this with its inferior accuracy and further reduced with the carnage is complete BS. I no I tested it. The secret to the Affliction Barb wasn't in accuracy (well, I guess it was, you need a good bit of it anyway) but piling up hits to crits as much as you can. Off the top of my head you could have: - +10% Tall Grass - +20% Durgan Weapon - +20% Dire Blessing - +5% Paladin Zealous Focus All for +55% Hits to Crits total – this makes it much, much easier to land them crits (and you also deal a lot more damage). I wouldn't say they get the "weakest" class award - they're strong at what they do, which is dealing as much damage in AOE as humanly possible. Chanters on the other-hand are more or less irredeemable at the moment.

Also, I forgot to add that a Barbarian with St. Ydwen's Redeemer is a better undead (Vessel) slayer than anything else in the game and may as well be Buffy the Vampire Slayer on cocaine.

I don't get all the hate for Barbarians. Sure – as a solo character they're going to be complete junk. That's a given. You really need to be defensively orientated in some way to solo or have a lot of hard CC/be able to deal damage from a distance. But that's like saying forks are bad/underpowered because it's hard to eat soup with them. If you give a high might/high intellect Barbarian Tidefall and Accuracy Bracers and if they have a reasonable amount of resolve (<10) or concentration buffs you will be able to throw them in to a group of enemies and watch as chunks start appearing everywhere. The Barbarian will be able to take aggro from maybe 3-4 enemies themselves because of the rate of Endurance Drain – if they hit six or seven enemies for an average of 35-50 a hit they'll be healing themselves for like 50 Endurance each swing and potentially interrupting as well depending on what build you go for. They will, of course, be susceptible to CC but realistically unless you've got an uber-tank in the party everyone else probably will too! The key thing that can't really be put in to numbers is the fact that they can do this consistently and without much micromanagement whereas with spell based AOE classes you're going to be eating in to your spells-per-day. The value of a damage focused Barbarian is going to be increased even further with the nerf to per-encounter spells that is coming shortly. I'll agree with two things though: (a) If you're a big rester/not playing on POTD/don't care about micro you're probably just better off taking a spell-based AOE class. (b) With the introduction of additional immunities in to the game – prone of which is the most common – the AOE Affliction Barbarian build needs a rethink. I don't know how many immunities have been introduced to stun but Star Caller/the unique Dozens spear are an option I guess then.

I actually just read that apparently mechanics doesn't affect seal spells anymore (maybe it never did ...?) https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82810-priests-seal-spells-and-mechanics-skill/ though they are still stupidly accurate and will at least Graze most people. Good to know! Thank God PVP wasn't introduced in this game otherwise we could go on like this forever

I think I'd ultimately put my money on a priest to consistently beat anyone. I'm not sure how Shadowing Beyond interacts with traps (does it activate them?) because unless it makes traps "fail" (e.g. waste them) a priest could just cast repulsing seal where they're standing and the second anyone tries to attack them (breaking invisibility) they'll be prone for like 20 seconds which may as well be GG as the priest can keep spamming repulsing seals. Even if somebody tried using ranged attacks the priest can use the seal at range. The only hope might be the physical class getting an initial ranged crit in with a stun/prone on crit weapon and then moving in but it would have to take place before the priest can cast the seal.

The Moral of the Story: the class that can (a) get the initial hard CC off and (b) keep it up for as long as possible will probably win.

That's a good point - if the Wiki is to believed I guess if the Rogue spammed all his abilities that don't target deflection he'd definitely be in with a shot. Blinding's all well and good but you'd need as much Hard CC as you can get to keep the Wizard pinned down and the only thing I can see is Sap on the Rogue's ability sheet but I'm not sure what that targets. A stunned target's got -30 Deflection and -30 Reflex so from that point on the Rogue would be able to move on to Blind Strikes and also rely on stun/prone Procs from weapons. That being said, if the Wizard gets one CC spell off it's curtains for Mr. Rogue because there's a very low chance it's going to miss entirely so that Sap better hit! Call to Slumber, Confusion, Concelhaut's Hammer etc ... will mean death.

That was only a rough calculation so give or take 10 deflection either way. I wasn't even including the max deflection you could get as a Wizard as well. You could have Max Resolve and Cautious Attack for another 14 deflection on what's already there (though the Rogue might be able to push their accuracy up a bit further then anyways with single handed style and a native +accuracy weapon). A Wizard can, for all intents and purposes, make himself completely unhittable by melee attacks. Even in the most favourable conditions to both parties with food included I'd still think the Rogue would need to roll more than a 70 not to miss, and even then he'd probably just graze. Meanwhile, the Wizard is spamming every single spell in his book at rapid speed thanks to deleterious alacrity. A good workaround (back in the day) might have been for the Rogue to conjure the Firebrand Greatsword from the forgemaster's gloves which actually attacks reflex instead of deflection but this is no longer the case unfortunately. If anyone was going to get the Wizard my money would probably be on a priest with Seal of Repulsion - which gets ridiculous accuracy the more mechanics you have. Maybe a Druid too with Returning Storm + Relentless Storm working together as well.

Pretty sure the Wizard can easily make themselves more or less unhittable with Deflection buffs that last for much longer than a rogue can keep shadowing beyond up ...? Wizard Base Deflection (10) + Bonus From Level 14 (14*3=42) + Resolve (Let's say +2), Sword and Shield Style with Superb Shield Little Saviour (about +30?) + Hardened Arcane Veil (+75) = 10+42+2+30+75 = About 160. Let's say the Rogue is built for accuracy and has 95 Accuracy. 95 - 160 = -65. Even if the Rogue Rolls a 100 he'll graze and he'll have to roll more than 80 to not miss I think .. Rogue: Shadowing Beyond Wizard: Sword and Superb Small Shield > Arcane Veil (+75 Deflection) > Deleterious Alacrity Of Motion > Wait till Shadowing Beyond Runs Out > Spam CC > Concelhauts Even if the Rogue got the drop on the Wizard he'd have to keep him Perma Hard-CCd to stop Arcane Veil from going off, which is actually probably doable. Then again, if the Wizard gets the drop on the Rogue it's curtains for him too!

I'm kind of confused with this thread. If we can't take buffs from other classes in to consideration then is this for builds to solo the game? Why would you play a character in a party and not buff them with other chars?

Didn't they change Tidefall to no longer have the Draining effect? And a wizard with alacrity spamming fireballs will severely out dps a barbarian (the fireball is a fast cast spell) Your barb build is also very balanced dude, it is not over powered at all, play the game a few more times on POTD dude I did say sustained DPS to be fair - as of a patch coming quite soon per encounter spells are getting nerfed and all of the Vancian casters will only get one spell per-encounter per level. So sure, a Wizard can spam fireballs (or other spells) for one encounter but the Barbarian is better at keeping it up consistently and surviving. Depending on the number of enemies you're fighting you can be healing yourself for 40-50 endurance every hit; which is something a Wizard can't do under duress (thought Citzals with the new endurance draining chanter chant could be interesting). A Barbarian with the Blade of the Endless Paths will probably out-damage a Tidefall Barbarian too but he won't live half as long without the draining proc.

Just wanted to chime in here and give the Barbarian an honourable mention. With stats allocated as follows: Might: 18 Con: 10 Dex: 10 Int: 18 Per: 14 Resolve: 8 and with Frenzy (33%), Bloodlust (20%), a Durgan Enhanced Tidefall (15% or 20% can't remember) and the recovery penalty gloves (15%) with Durgan enhanced robes (Gwisk Glas is good) you can easily reduce base weapon recovery by nearly 70%-90% which means with a Dex bonus added in (let's say with the +3 dex ring) you'll end up completely whacking your opponents in a large AOE almost once a second. More speed can obviously be achieved through other means (e.g. hastening exhortation, potions of power) though bear in mind the cap is 100%. Tidefall has the draining property which means as long as your dude is attacking more than 3 mobs at once and isn't being disabled he will be golden. For more mobs maybe throw on the lvl1 priest spell holy radiance to prevent interrupts or lay down crowd control. Other builds have used Firebrand for this kind of approach but I don't think that's as valuable any more because (a) Firebrand now targets deflection rather than reflexes and (b) you lose a lot of accuracy by using Firebrand (The weapon itself and potentially your glove slot depending on what kind of support you have). Better to have tidefall for survivability imo. I don't think any class can't match the Barbarians sustained AOE DPS - Wizards, Druids and Priests included.

Since this topic seems to be getting a lot of attention I thought I'd chime in with some of the research I did for my own thread on Swift Strikes and Torment's Reach for posterity sake. When dual wielding torment's reach is technically worth 3.5 attacks against the initial single target: 1 ordinary attack + 50% crush lash vs 25% DR + 1 ordinary Attack + 50% crush lash vs 25% DR. There's no recovery between the two hits so casting Swift Strikes (with lightning strikes talent) and then spamming as many Torments Reaches as possible while it is active is really effective because of the overall reduced recovery time vs auto-attacking. Even on idiot monk builds (around 5 Int) where Swift Strikes around 7 secs the math suggests that doing the Swift Strikes/Torments Reach spam combo will be more effective than just Torments reach itself providing you've got the Lightning Strikes Talent. Swift Strikes will increase damage proportionately more on a build that's using either Two-Handed or Weapon and Shield because of the greater recovery penalties associated with those styles. The Stat allocation for the juggernaut build is really great for taking advantage of Durgan Steel sabres as well it seems (endurance draining proc is great for high damage chars). Personally, rather than taking flagellant's path I'd probably go for Iron Wheel and wear something like the Saint's war armour upgraded to fine/exceptional for a larger supply of wounds, less recovery and better synergy with turning wheel though that's obviously a bit more yolo than this one and you'd lose the big advantage of +4 might and +4 con from Sanguine. Maybe something to consider if you've got another character that could benefit from the Sanguine Plate also.