thelee

Came here from the forbidden fist bug thread. Honestly I think you're overstating the severity of the problem. While it is true that it is a slightly weird interaction that self-harm effects scale with both int (in the maleficent direction) and resolve (in the beneficent direction) this is a case where the game design benefits from the simplicity of being consistent with the existing rules of how intellect and resolve work. In addition, in many cases it can serve as a fun extra design space, where intellect and resolve act as an interesting tension for abilities that give you self-harm in exchange for longer or shorter benefits. Carving out exceptions for self-harm duration while retaining self-harm damage scaling just adds more cognitive load for people to try to have to pay attention to for such a limited/narrow set of cases and also pre-eliminates a possible design space. I think it's bad enough that Obsidian removed perception, intellect, and might influences on consumables (doing so creates odd interactions already), I would really hate for yet another set of carve out exceptions. The issue with forbidden fist is that it's just a broken ability top to bottom, doing way too much damage (even without scaling) and having a flat +10s duration mechanic that ignoring any duration scaling is way too punishing for such a narrow benefit (on top of the class not having good way of generating wounds). It's independent of whether it disadvantageously "benefits" from intellect.

For clarity, let's use the correct terms. 1. I assume you mean abilities, because skills are like "stealth" or "intimidate." All multiclass characters get two ability points per new unlocked ability level aka inherent power level (for multiclass, this is at levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19), and one ability point otherwise, for a total of 27 ability points by level 20 (two at level 1, one at level 2, one at level 3, two at level 4, etc.). If you are talking about class resource (aka how much zeal or bond you have), the amount of class resource you have is equal to the number of ability levels you have unlocked plus 2 (so for a multiclass, it is 3 zeal at level 1 all the way up to 9 zeal at level 19). 2. Everyone other than a devoted or blackjacket gets two weapon proficiencies at level 1, then a new one at every fourth level (4, 8, 12, 16, 20) for a total of 7 weapon proficiencies by level 20. 3. Paladins can get more zeal points mostly through Virtuous Triumph at AL7 which gives you a small (25%?) chance to get +1 Zeal after personally killing an enemy. Paladins can also get a passive +1 to their max zeal from Inspired Path at AL4. There are other ways to get more class resource, though they are uncommon (aka Brilliant inspiration). All else fails you can use empower on yourself to regenerate half your max class resources, rounded up. What does AL7 and AL4 mean? Early or Mid Game, Is it Hard to Kill a Herald "The Steel Garrote"? It caught my attention the part of recovering life while it hits. Do not depend on Zeal to hit with your abilities. AL7 and AL4 is my annotation to refer to abilities that appear on the 7th or 4th row of your character ability tree. Most people and the game refer to these as "power levels" but honestly that's fairly confusing because "power level" in this context has a different meaning and different semantics from "power level" used in other contexts (I've gotten confused questions directed at me in the past when I say power level in these contexts--I adopted "ability level" over time to differentiate between the two major uses of the phrase "power level"). I consider it one of the confusing mechanics of the game (after inversions).

For clarity, let's use the correct terms. 1. I assume you mean abilities, because skills are like "stealth" or "intimidate." All multiclass characters get two ability points per new unlocked ability level aka inherent power level (for multiclass, this is at levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19), and one ability point otherwise, for a total of 27 ability points by level 20 (two at level 1, one at level 2, one at level 3, two at level 4, etc.). If you are talking about class resource (aka how much zeal or bond you have), the amount of class resource you have is equal to the number of ability levels you have unlocked plus 2 (so for a multiclass, it is 3 zeal at level 1 all the way up to 9 zeal at level 19). 2. Everyone other than a devoted or blackjacket gets two weapon proficiencies at level 1, then a new one at every fourth level (4, 8, 12, 16, 20) for a total of 7 weapon proficiencies by level 20. 3. Paladins can get more zeal points mostly through Virtuous Triumph at AL7 which gives you a small (25%?) chance to get +1 Zeal after personally killing an enemy. Paladins can also get a passive +1 to their max zeal from Inspired Path at AL4. There are other ways to get more class resource, though they are uncommon (aka Brilliant inspiration). All else fails you can use empower on yourself to regenerate half your max class resources, rounded up.

Yeah I can't confirm anything juanval says, unless they are in a different steam market than the US. But I do hope for obsidian/poe's sake that TB does bring in a batch of new sales.

I think the ship has sailed on this, honestly. I built a brand-new computer and before I had to RMA my gpu for the third time (nvidia rtx friggin sucks) and get something else, I had a 2080 Ti and the beefiest AMD cpu, plus loads of ram, and the fastest NVMe storage I could get. I basically had the same exact frame skips as I did on my 5-6 year old computer that it was replacing. Something in the game is just coded so inefficiently that at this point I have to write it off as just a systematic misdesign in the engine, since no amount of hardware can apparently smooth it out, and would require some deep re-coding to fix, something that they are definitely not going to risk doing so late in the game life cycle. According to some posters in the Steam discussions the problem is Unity didn't code multithreading correctly, so on processors with a lot of cores the game begins to starve itself of resources. https://steamcommunity.com/app/560130/discussions/0/2572002906843374108/ holy crap man I need to try that. AMD cpus in particular have tons of (logical) cores, so I might have actually made the resource starvation a bigger issue over my much older cpu.

it's an abbreviation that stands for "if I recall correctly"

this is also how wizards and druids work. this is also essentially how casters worked in every infinity-engine-style game e.g. limited casts per fight (in classic D&D wizards in fact start off with one cast per day, much less per encounter). if you're coming from a different RPG context (final fantasy, diablo, elder scrolls, etc.) this may be a culture shock. TB might exacerbate the limited cast feeling. i assure you though, priests are not weak.

I'll repeat what I posted on SA in response to this discussion: I definitely share this thought. When I first started looking at ability trees, I was disappointed that they got rid of the very large "common pool" of talents that PoE1 had, in favor of more class-specific stuff (having Deep Pockets and Quick Switch sequestered away into rogue and fighter in particular hurt some of my PoE1 playstyle) and the stuff that is shared is very generic defense stuff (Bull's Will). It seemed like there was a bit more pigeonholing about classes compared to PoE1 (whereas it was definitely fun to go against type to create a super-intelligent barbarian, which is a definitely less viable option now). In the end, to me it's not worse, it's "different." I'll never be able to recreate my favorite priest from PoE1, but I have a whole bunch of other new options to play with in Deadfire.

My solution is to not worry about it too much, beat the game with the current build, and do a new game with the next build, instead of trying to get the current run "just right." Of course, this is also how I end up with 600+ hours on Deadfire and not much of a social life outside of family...

Did you specify troubadour, but the same can be done with Beckoner? my mistake, it's been a while since I rolled a beckoner. for resistances: the same can be done with beckoner, it's just that by default 6s is so slow that it might not be as effective at doing so.

I actually have no idea, the main chant i use for this is the one that gives con/resolve resistance, and i hardly ever run or use any con/resolve equipment or racials (funnily enough I use literally every other one: might, dex, int, per). might be interesting to test, would be a weird interaction for those characters that already have the appropriate resistance.

Wait, seriously? This seems like a bug, given its inconsistency with how Resistance works in other contexts. (I.e., that different sources of Resistance can't be stacked) it's possibly a bug, but one that I feel might be very hard to actually address, since you'd have to implement some sort of "memory" for these kinds of effects. i think the way it's working is that your resistance "falls off" and then comes back again, so it's not really an issue of stacking, but (again) that those debuffs just don't remember that they've already been resisted when the effect comes back on. I guess one way around it is that "gaining resistance" shouldn't be a trigger to modify existing effects, but it would make those resistance potions go from niche to useless, imo. but yes, i've definitely used chanter chants to whittle away afflictions (most of them aren't long-duration enough to really matter, but e.g. i've completely eliminated enfeebled normally and with a troubadour even modestly long afflictions can be whittled away).

I now understand, because Troubadours is so "dear", it is versatile, I can choose between maximizing my invocation power or improving Chants overlap (One thing or another, I have to decide), this all spending little intellect (Spends less than the other Chanters to have the same result) that increases the duration of his spells. - Invocations or Chants, I have to choose which will be the real beneficiary by activating or deactivating 'Brisk Recitation'. Correct? If it's correct then all I have left is a question, Beckoner. He has no bonus and no penalty for Chants has the same effect as the other Chanters "Default". The gain and loss of this class is solely and exclusively in the invocations: -50% HP / Duration / Size of invocations In return, it manages to do twice as many invocations as normal damage (I do not know if other effects will also). If I made the correct account 2 incantations overlap too (At a cost close to 30 INT), while doing double invocations (Higher DPS) AFAICT, beckoner only has -50% to HP and size of summons (no effect on duration). Not all invocations are summons, please note which invocations are keyworded as "Summon Invocation." what on earth?? where are you even getting these ideas? you can only have one set of summons at a time. You cannot ever have two different summon invocations active, no matter the intellect.

The answer is obvious. He should ask people BEFORE implementing stupid AR into Deadfire. Twitter poll currently overwhelming favors AR, so uh, you do you. In general, it's also completely reasonable for well after-the-fact assessment. I work a lot with experimentation and testing of new features, and change aversion is a real phenomenon independent of the actual merits of the new feature. If you ask people before or shortly after you do something new, you might get overwhelmingly negative responses, but within like a week it might flip completely over as people get used to the change. In general when I consult with people I advise them to not make decision based on like the first week of data if it's a significant new feature.

I'm pretty sure you can have that conversation even you are under the sea. Skylights or periscopes?

No, with troubadour, intellect of 30 will only get you partial uptime on a third chant. You would need 40 (literally impossible) to get 100% uptime on 3. With Brisk Recitation, you have no linger, and it is literally impossible to have uptime on more than one chant for buffs (may be different for some other types of chants). In all honesty, this is some of the most basic parts of how a chanter works - can you really not just create a new game with a chanter (or hire a chanter in an existing game) and just spend a few minutes watching how they work? I have 2 Heralds and lv down, lv2 but this seems confusing to me (I do not know how in the game for 30 or 40 quick tests), type ShadowKeeper dp Baldur's Gate 2. Troubadour Max 2 chants effects (Running at the same time) this with an INT 20. With Brisk Recitation, you only have 1 Chant effect running at a time. 40 INT to have 3 Chants, with 'Brisk Recitation' off (But it's almost impossible to have so many points) Beckoner Max 2 chants effects (Running at the same time) this with an INT 20. Unlike the Troubadour, you can get up to 3 effects running at the same time with 30 INT Now it's correct? No. I'm sorry, but not even close. a) you are literally capped at 35 for a stat, so it's not "almost impossible" but literally impossible. b) you can have multiple chant effects with brisk recitation, that's what boeroer and I have been alluding to. c) you got the beckoner completely wrong. I'm going to re-iterate the basics of a chanter: 1. Most chants have a 6s "active" duration and then a 3s "linger". The "linger" means that the chant is still active even if you start singing a different chant. In this way you can overlap chants. By default (10 intellect) you will can sing one song for 6s, then it will go into linger mode for 3s, during which you can start singing a different song, and for the first 3s you can have two different chants active. 2. The linger duration is affected by intellect. Please look up what intellect does. This is what determines what I'm talking about "uptime." 3. Troubadour gets a special passive effect that extends linger additively with intellect by 1.5s (+50%). 4. Troubadour also gets a toggle called "Brisk Recitation." While active, your chants do not linger at all and your "active" duration is reduced to 3s. Basically troubadours have the option of being able to either a) buff allies more by having chants overlap for longer OR b) cycle through chants very quickly and do invocations rapidly at the cost of not buffing allies as well with chants.

No, with troubadour, intellect of 30 will only get you partial uptime on a third chant. You would need 40 (literally impossible) to get 100% uptime on 3. With Brisk Recitation, you have no linger, and it is literally impossible to have uptime on more than one chant for buffs (may be different for some other types of chants). In all honesty, this is some of the most basic parts of how a chanter works - can you really not just create a new game with a chanter (or hire a chanter in an existing game) and just spend a few minutes watching how they work?

All chanters have a default linger for their chants of 3s, which is extendable by intellect. The troubadour is special in that they get an inherent +50%, which with 20 intellect means they can have perfect 100% uptime on two chants. With extremely high intellect they can even get decent uptime on three different chants. Also, I was skimming this thread, so sorry if this duplicates something someone else mentioned, but while you're limited to one set of summons (via invocation/items) the chant that pops a skeleton into existence ignores any summon limits, so you can have an army of skeletons on top of whatever summons you create. In my experience, Beckoner is extremely powerful for like 90% maybe 95% of the fights, but Troubadour's advantage of being able to switch on Brisk Recitation helps me put it over the top for a summoning herald, because for bosses or megabosses pulling in summons faster might be much more important than getting a lot of weaker summons in one go, and those are the fights where you really need the help. Not to mention that Brisk Recitation's reduced chant time and lack of linger is actually not a drawback for many of the chants (the one that grants a damage reduction shield, the one that creates a skeleton, the one that removes concentration from enemies, and all the resistance ones). 1) I understand that the troubadour has a passive effect that ends up guaranteeing 100% time in two chants (guaranteeing two simultaneous effects), but this with 'Brisk Recitation' active? Or just deactivate? Note: If you need to disable it will be bad, because it is his advantage to have faster phrases, so I would have to choose between more invocations or more corners at the same time. Note 2: Extreme intellect do you say a 30? 2) The other Chanters (eg, Beckoner) have a 3s linger (Increasing by INT), can they also reach the time of 2 or 3 Chants at the same time? 3) What is the name of the Chant that maintains constant invocations of skeletons? (Are they skeletons initial? Are they affected by the effect of the Beckoner (x2), have the same duration of the skeletons or more?) Note: With them there is no limit, I'm sending invocations in the field without stopping, then? Is there any Paladin aura that will increase their speed of production? 4) Do you think Druid / Chanter (Theurge) is a more efficient summoner than Paladin / Chanter (Herald)? Note: The passive effects of the Paladin seem to give more power, durability invocations, and since each character can only have an instance of invocations, I do not know if it is worthwhile to leave in the "Reservation" invocations. 5) Beckoner is strong in 90 ~ 95% of cases according to your experience, practically strong the whole game, but this going with Herald or pure Chanter? Note: 90 ~ 95% is basically the whole game! 6) Have not the songs you quoted from Troubadour been disadvantaged with 'Brisk Recitation', for what reason? Are they different from the other Chants? 7) So what makes Troubadour, so chosen in the poll, is the fact of the most difficult fights (even though they are less of a game, they are vital), it ends up "shining / appearing" more than Beckoner, that? 1. The extended linger duration is what you get by default as a troubadour. Brisk Recitation is a separate ability the troubadour gets that completely disables all linger and halves chant time. With all due respect, just try rolling a troubaoudr for like 10 minutes and you'll see. 2. For other chanters to get 100% uptime, they would need 30 intellect (+100% duration), since each poitn of intellect above 10 gives you +5% duration. 3. I had too look it up because chant names are so hard to remember: "Many lives pass by, each leaving footprints" available at AL7. They are not affected by beckoner, because beckoner only affects invocations. 4. why druid/chanter? i think the summons from the druid would clash with the summons you get from chanter (since you only get one set). also some people (waiting for Marigoldan to chime in) would sing the virtues of Heralds for all time. 5. Either way. Even if you're multiclassing, the AL7 summon for animated weapons is extremely powerful. 90-95% is most of the game, but like I said for some of the hardest fights (incl megabosses), it might not matter if you were able to do 95% of the rest of the game if you need the extra help for the last few extremely difficult fights. This is up to you, really. 6. Boeroer kind of clarifies for some angles. For specific cases: the 10-pt damage shield ("Her courage thick as steel") only refreshes every time the chant starts up again, so reducing it down to 3s actually makes it much better, because once the stasis shield is eliminated, other chanters have to wait longer before getting another. (I recently discovered that this chant on a troubadour works really well against Hauani O Whe, who uses a attack that can potentially perpetually debuff a party member with 9.6 raw damage every 3s (if you don't move). With this chant active with brisk recitation, you can basically ignore the debuff forever, since you'll always have a stasis shield up to absorb the damage, whereas other chanters can't do that.) the one that creates skeletons doesn't have normal linger effects (and according to Boeroer, neither to most of the ones that roll to-hit on enemies), so the fact that you lose linger is completely irrelevant. You create a skeleton with a 10s summon duration (+ intellect bonus) regardless of brisk recitation, so you can create one every 3s and have a small army. for the anti-concentration one ("Thick grew their tongues, stumbling o'er words") brisk recitation means you make an attempt to strip all concentration off an enemy much more frequently. While you miss out on leaving a long debuff on the enemy to prevent htem from gaining more concentration, in practice I find that preventing enemies from gaining concentration is a much less important effect than stripping any concentration away to begin with. for all the resistance ones, every time a resistance chant activates it downgrades any existing afflictions. So it can be much more powerful to have this on a 3s clock instead of having a 6s-plus-linger resistance shield. In other words, if you get hit by Terrify, you resist that down to Frightened, and then within 3s it gets resisted back down to Shaken, and then 3s later you resist it away completely - basically the game doesn't remember that you "already" resisted the initial effect. Normal chants can still do the same thing, but does it too much slower to be too relevant (every 6 seconds at most). 7. I can't speak for how other people voted, but that's why I voted. In addition, Troubadours are much more generally versatile, whereas Beckoner is really focused-in on summons. Because of my low esp. with these various classes, I am confused about this. Are there chants that are not influenced by 'Brisk Recitation'? so its effects remain normal and so it has to stack up to 3 effects even with this active? (Or just deactivating?) See above #6. I don't think the chants stack on enemies, but against high-defense foes, trying every 3s to land a chant can be very effective, versus only getting a shot every 6s.

I think the ship has sailed on this, honestly. I built a brand-new computer and before I had to RMA my gpu for the third time (nvidia rtx friggin sucks) and get something else, I had a 2080 Ti and the beefiest AMD cpu, plus loads of ram, and the fastest NVMe storage I could get. I basically had the same exact frame skips as I did on my 5-6 year old computer that it was replacing. Something in the game is just coded so inefficiently that at this point I have to write it off as just a systematic misdesign in the engine, since no amount of hardware can apparently smooth it out, and would require some deep re-coding to fix, something that they are definitely not going to risk doing so late in the game life cycle.

Why are we to even trust that Mirke knows her instruments (I mean, she's constantly swaying from being drunk...)? She could be calling it a harpsichord when in fact it's closer to a pianoforte. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but early piano-like instruments also sounded a bit like harpsichords...)

All chanters have a default linger for their chants of 3s, which is extendable by intellect. The troubadour is special in that they get an inherent +50%, which with 20 intellect means they can have perfect 100% uptime on two chants. With extremely high intellect they can even get decent uptime on three different chants. Also, I was skimming this thread, so sorry if this duplicates something someone else mentioned, but while you're limited to one set of summons (via invocation/items) the chant that pops a skeleton into existence ignores any summon limits, so you can have an army of skeletons on top of whatever summons you create. In my experience, Beckoner is extremely powerful for like 90% maybe 95% of the fights, but Troubadour's advantage of being able to switch on Brisk Recitation helps me put it over the top for a summoning herald, because for bosses or megabosses pulling in summons faster might be much more important than getting a lot of weaker summons in one go, and those are the fights where you really need the help. Not to mention that Brisk Recitation's reduced chant time and lack of linger is actually not a drawback for many of the chants (the one that grants a damage reduction shield, the one that creates a skeleton, the one that removes concentration from enemies, and all the resistance ones).

Bump for great justice. I mistakenly put this as 4.1, since I was reporting for 4.0.1, but it is definitely still broken in 4.1. Given that we're likely hitting content complete/end of life for Deadfire soon, I strongly urge developers to prioritize this issue. Of all the various gameplay oddities and outstanding issue, I feel this is actually the most severe bug (even though I'm really annoyed at how lame Stag Carnage is), as it undermines a whole lot of different abilities and classes (not to mention screws up Hylea's Challenge).

I actually did do duration-extending tricks. The bellower is probably the only class in the game where the moment you start casting something happens, in this case any previous bellower +PL buff is immediately replaced by a new one based on the phrase count you have when casting the new invocation. So it literally has no impact for invocation purposes that the bellower buff has a duration. Quite possibly the reason why we're not getting much of a response is that as I hypothesize elsewhere, this could just be an implementation detail--it's only intended for invocations to get a boost, but the only way to get it to work is a buff that appears instantly on cast-start, and the buff has to last a short amount of time to make sure it covers the gamut of invocation casting times. But why even mention its duration in the subclass descriptions then?

question - when do duration effects end? do they drop at the end of the round they expire, at the beginning, or at the same initiative order in which they landed?

C'mon gramps, even the first-gen consoles had two controllers. Guess why? FOR MULTIPLAYER!!! Also, multiplayer (in whatever form) as an optional mode, that doesn't change the game's core from being a single player experience – why not? For the same reason any tacked on mode is bad for a game. It takes time and resources that could have been used to improve and polish more important areas of the game. if the tacked on mode generates more revenue over and beyond what it took to create, then it generates more time and resources to improve and polish important areas of the game.