Gorgon

Several years ago Israel all but levelled the place to the ground, no doubt they are of the opinion that Gaza would be easier to manage and terrorism more preventable if the people all lived in tents. The threat of terrorism can't be used to justify anything, a lot, sure, not everything.

The Israeli authorities thought the passengers were going to play by the usual 'rules' and passive resistance methods which have developed following the first world bank demonstrations, and the decided that they were going to surprise them and end it before the protesters could get their standoff and be dragged off in handcuffs in front of the cameras. When the Israeli spokesman says that the protesters solely are responsible for the deaths that is simply a logical failure. Israel instigated this. Cause and effect - Israel is responsible regardless of how little they wished or planned for this outcome. They could and should have handled this differently. The media reaction is not surprising, what was known was that possibly up to 16 civilians had been killed following a midnight commando raid. The rumor mill going wild, this person shot, this person wounded. The passengers included some very respectable names, EU parliamentarians and former middle east envoys, and journalist across the board have learned to be wary of any official Israeli -and while were at it also Palestinian- version. There are no official sources not concerned with covering their asses and serving their agenda, none the least bit interested in self scrutiny or getting to the truth. Yes, we have seen passengers attacking the boarders, shooting in self defense is a plausible scenario, but what else is on those video files. If it's anything detrimental to Israel surely we are never going to see it.

It's curious that Israel is not admitting defeat, really...

ok that's pretty odd. I didn't repost that.

If you are suggesting that the goal of challenging the Israeli blockade was not also to make Israel look bad, well that's pretty naive. It wasn't just a relief convoy, it was a relief convoy/ media stunt. The activists expected to use passive resistance, forcing the Israeli authority to be heavy handed in their arrests, pretty much how it played out on the other ships. Add a couple of body bags and the story really starts to have legs.

We don't actually know if there were boxes of weapons or not. I wouldn't exactly call the IDF a reliable source in this. In any case the passengers were a very diverse group, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were at least some who are ecstatic about how all this played out. The political and popular reaction must be an activists wet dream.

If you are suggesting that the goal of challenging the Israeli blockade was not also to make Israel look bad, well that's pretty naive. It wasn't just a relief convoy, it was a relief convoy/ media stunt. The activists expected to use passive resistance, forcing the Israeli authority to be heavy handed in their arrests, pretty much how it played out on the other ships. Add a couple of body bags and the story really starts to have legs.

Why don't you lead the charge, run with it, take your own advice as it were.

They are milking the franchise for everything its got. Can't say I blame them.

I just don't see the relevance of mentioning the holocaust or Hamas in the same breath when discussing the boarding. Yes, fine we all stipulate that the Jewish people were chased from one end of the world to the other until they founded Israel, we all know that Hamas is responsible for countless terrorist attacks. Now can we get back to the subject please.

From the infrared it looks like they were attacked before all of them had even shimmied down the ropes. Of course that was the part of the footage the IDF wanted us to see.

It's not about what Hamas does or doesn't recognize. Finesse was needed, the situation demanded it. Israel screwed the pooch big time.

The psychology of the situation was simply all wrong, you send in a about a dozen men to the several hundred on the boat, mix in fear and animosity, the absence of any sense of legitimacy for the boarding, and perhaps a belief on the part of those determined to defend the vessel that they could succeed and you have a recipe for disaster.

That's the misunderstanding here, the convoy wasn't going to enter Israeli territory, it was going to Gaza. And a naval blockade means you stop ships in international waters, otherwise you'd have to enter the territorial waters of the country being blockaded. Of course this situation is a bit different as Gaza is not a country. And Turkey is the one who set the whole thing up, if Israelis still think Turkey is their friend, they're being delusional. Israel has the right to police the naval approaches to the port of Gaza following the Oslo accord. In addition Israel has a 20 km buffer zone along its coastline I believe instigated to stop rocket boat attacks. All this means that Israel does indeed have a defined naval border, which was not breached. There may be legal precedent for a search, but a midnight commando raid. That's not how you go about challenging an incursion you believe is about to take place. This is what they should have done : challenged the vessels the minute they entered Israeli territory and explained that their convoy was subject to search. Then sent in police and customs agents. If these agents were attacked, Israel would have had the moral high ground.

Because Iran is the real enemy for Israel and has, like every one else, been using the conflict to galvanize popular opinion. If Israel is seen to reject humanitarian convoys, actively supporting Hamas and Hezbollah gains in legitimacy. It doesn't make sense, but if you only consider appearances, it kinda does.

I mean a boarding action with just one helicopter. I doesn't seem like the right tactical choice. Neither did attacking the convoy before it entered Israeli territory. They may have gotten a hold of the ships and deported the activists but the PR battle was a sound thrashing, and this time the cost may be more tangible than usual. Lost military contracts with turkey, a huge PR win for Iran, just for starters-

How so ?. no laws broken, no infringement on territory.

What I don't get is this, the ship posed no military threat, and an action like this was obviously going to be high risk. Why did they bother ?

Hold up now, it was the IDF commandos who attacked the ship. They instigated this action in international waters. Some of the activists had obviously planned to resist a boarding attempt ahead of time. There were several members of the EU parliament as well as other well known activists whose focus was the effects of the closure and control of Gaza, and obviously some people who wanted direct action and to create an international incident. It is simply not correct that this was a Muslim Brotherhood action.

The activists weren't working for Hamas.

Hamas are probably ecstatic about this whole debacle, however this is about Israel handling a stand off with activists the worst way they possibly could have. It's got nothing to do with terrorism. It's really important that people understand that.

Not true, there's penises too.

You could likely get away with activism like this in most civilised countries. You know make a show of trying to unload the cargo, get arrested in front of the cameras, etc. In Israel they shoot you full of holes.

Didn't they already admit that they forgot to test it. It was 'blowout preventer'. Sounds vaguely humorous somehow.

Well BP are already liable, every day this continues is money down the drain.