Ganrich

Just to clarify. My issue isn't that someone else has an easier time of completing the game. It is the other way around. A player that doesn't play into that paradigm has in past games run into an issue of hitting a wall. They hit a boss fight and are completely under leveled. The fight is quite impossible as a repercussion. So, the game in that situation incentivizes players to grind, and more so even requires it. And the player that doesn't do that has to reload an earlier save and repeat a lot of content. It isn't as fun the second go around with the same character. This is partly a design issue and an issue of how XP is handled. The developers in those cases expect at least a semi-completionist run. However, they do it with XP for kills more often than not. Monsters are more random than quests, and when they are used in that regard they inhibit (to an extent) pacifist play styles. (I know Obsidian isn't pushing pacifist playstyle with this game. I am just using it as an example). In PoE, Obsidian can ensure the XP amounts along the critical path is sufficient to complete the game. This would be much more difficult than someone that does most of the side content. It also doesn't matter if the player avoids certain fights. It can be handled in a game with combat XP, but it is both more time consuming for the developer and precarious.

Yeah... I have been scouring the net looking for the druid video myself. I believe it is a myth... like unicorns. Mister Sawyer is tugging at my heartstrings. I have Shadowplay, and although I have never done the whole video thing... I may post a youtube vid on some of the highlights in beta of the druid. I will link it if I do. No Druid Video has me considering a Druid play through before I do my Chanter (what I am planning on playing first come launch).

It is also despite all of his rage.

Eh, I can be light hearted. However, I have refrained from making similar comments because it does nothing to further the discussion. Mostly because I think it is too easy to lump everyone in the opposition in the same category. I try not to be so binary, and not look at posters in a particular thread as people I agree with or disagree with. I look at everyone having similar, yet distinct, opinions. I agree with Combat XP people to an extent but believe that the issue has less to do with how XP is handed out, and more an issue of verisimilitude that breaks down because we are using a class based system. If we were talking a skill system like Elder Scrolls (Not ESO), Ultima Online, or SWG then performing actions would increase that ability and the issue goes away. However, in a class based system like this, or D&D, or whatever that have non-combat and combat abilities within each class you run the risk of losing plausibility when a rogue's lockpicking goes up because he leveled up after killing a drake. Or, a warrior's ability to hit a target goes up because he sweet talked some poliical figure into sneaking you into the castle and leveled. However, you could say, "Well between the beginning of level 5 and obtaining level 6 you had to kill some things. So, a warrior getting more accurate on level up after talking to that political figure is grounded in realism because he probably was in combat at many points in that time." Well, with Objective XP the same can be said if you get XP for entering the cave. You aren't getting XP because you entered the cave, but because you overcame obstacles to get there. Those obstacles vary from non-combat(sneaking by enemies, or finding an alternate route) to combat (killing the monsters in the way). I like Class based systems, but I am fine pointing out that they are the crux of the issue here. Not how XP is handled. Whether this is the best way or not for a game like this isn't for me to judge without playing, but I have had (as others have had) issues with Combat XP in a class based game before. I would like to see if this holds water as it may alleviate those issues. It could also create other issues as you Combat XP folks have pointed out, and has in games like Bloodlines. However, was that Objective XP being a problem or further design issues? I tend to think the latter is the culprit in this case. Every system has warts on it, and it comes down which warts you find more tolerable. I guess I think we are two sides of the same coin. We are really kind of arguing almost identical points from different perspectives. Claiming one side has "hivemind" tendencies does nothing because the two sides are indeed arguing the same points from different perspectives. It is as the old adage says, "Point one finger at me and there are three more pointing back at you." It does nothing but make people defensive and derail the purpose of the thread. I agree that I am also very excited, and i think all of us on these forums are. We all have our issues with the game and the things we love. In the end we are all here because we want the game on our hard drives so we can play the heck out of it.

Come the beta I am going to play the classes in this order. Chanter - Dwarf Druid - Human Nature Godlike Paladin - Aumaua/possible Death Godlike Cipher - Orlan Everything else after that will be pretty whimsical. I do want to give each class a solid play through so as to discuss any major kinks in any class. Are racial bonuses and negatives in the Beta? Don't want to derail the thread. A simple yay or nay will suffice. If so, I may change this around if the race has a detrimental stats toward to build I plan on for each class. I would rather min/max each build to some extent during the beta than RP in its entirety.

Sure - it'd save time vs. individual enemy kill-xp - but it's still kill-xp vs. nothing for sneaking/other solutions. Again, I'd be happy for that to apply to a quest of ridding the area of a certain creature type (Like the zombie-farmland quest in BG) but if it's for every area then you're removing the design goal that was the reason for objective xp in the first place. Also, the game's been designed without kill-xp. Adding it back in would probably take too long (you'd have to le While true... and I should have thought those posts through more carefully. Don't drink and post guys. You could give the XP for clearing a certain percentage of the Fog of War. It would be a little different from map to map, and would mostly only apply to outdoor exploration type areas, but... You could reward seeing the map in its entirety (some maps may not allow you to see the whole map because of obstructions like cliffs or bodies of water). This would most likely increase a necessity to kill some mobs (if not all) while keeping the XP reward away from the kills perse, but killing them will likely make the task easier. Also, just because the game doesn't reward kills doesn't mean that such objectives aren't in place for exploration purposes. They could be there already in some capacity as rewards for exploring everything.

I didn't see that particular post. Also, how about not feeding into the hivemind bull from a few pages back. I haven't said anything about it myself because it is BS and useless to the conversation at hand.

So, the beetles don't count because they weren't right outside the cave? The objective was to get to the cave and enter it, and the XP was given by succeeding in that goal. In order to do so you had to make it past a small group of beetles and some spiders. Thus, bypassing those creatures with combat or other tactics are most definitely being rewarded. If your objective is to "bury a fallen comrade" and you dig him a 6 foot deep hole, cover his body with a shawl of some kind, place the body into said hole, cover him with dirt, and place a headstone... You get the XP reward for "Burying your comrade". The XP reward includes the entirety of what you did to accomplish that task. You could have just tossed large rocks over him to accomplish the same task for the same reward. One takes more effort than the other, but they may be rewarded the same. However, how you handle that defines your character. Also, we cannot say that your comrades brother doesn't show up in the near future and reward you, or spit on you, depending on how you buried him. We still don't know if there is a quest that includes the beetles specifically or not. Could be a dude in town who needs Wood Beetle poison glands to make an anti-venom for his poisoned son. Thus, a direct reward for the beetles, or at least some of the beetles. Perhaps the farmers use the pincers of stone beetles to till their lands, and their supply of pincers are short. There are the remaining beetles. Also, killing them is the easier thing to do anyway as they will not be there when you return. Where if you sneak by them they will definitely be there. If you use some form of animal charm on them... The will still be there. Thus, if you don't kill them subsequent trips through the map area are requiring more work.

This. It keeps being said every other page, or so. It mostly gets ignored. I have said it before in this thread. XP is an abstract system, and as such shouldn't be completely governed by logic. However, if you are going to try to use logic to govern XP you need to use a skill system like the TES games... Not a class system. Because you will always have monster kills increasing your lock pick skills, and/or skill successes giving increase to your archery when in a class system. In a skill system using a skill increases that skill, period. No, illogical overflow of XP. On the note of the beetles being the "only" thing not giving XP in the the demo... I have a few questions. Did we see every quest available in the demo? Nope. Did we see every beetle killed? Doubtful, but we can't be 100% as Adam killed all of the ones we could see on one play through. Were both the town map, and the beetle map completely explored? Nope. I can't say whether or not the beetles do give XP. I will let anyone who would like an answer to that know come Monday or Tuesday. It depends on if I have time to really play it

Sure - but 'clearing' means killing? In which case why not just have kill-xp?It would still encourage kill-em-all for those susceptible to grinding and doesn't comply with the stated objectives of allowing different playstyles to be equally viable. I'm not saying that "Clear the area of dangerous creatures" can't be a quest in game - just that if you're going to do it for all areas, you're just back to kill-xp but delayed. Time constraints. Balancing out xp on a per creature basis is different than a per area basis. 3500 mobs vs 125 maps. I am, admittedly, drunk and on my phone. I apologize for any lack of clarity.

They could give an Objective based XP reward for clearing an area of mobs. So clearing an outdoor environment or cave/dungeon could yield xp. Just saying.

Touche, but since we have seen that getting from point A to Z puts you through some combat, and Obsidian has said many encounters are unavoidable... I don't see it as splitting hairs. Also, as you said "Which can often be done by Talking", but it doesn't always have to be. It more often than not will be though. That example is a double edged sword though... as I don't think beating up Ogre's with a sword should make my Lore skill or Mechanic skill go up, but with combat XP it would. In the NWN games my Diplomacy, intimidate, and Bluff skills went up because I killed Orcs. That makes sense. Stop splitting hairs. A skill based character should still see power growth by using skills. A Combat based character for combat. We could do that, and have the balancing nightmare from BG 1 and 2 that you pointed out earlier. Or, we could realize that Class based systems have inadaquecies, no matter how XP is given out, and learn to live with it.

Yeah, this kind of made me curious as well. I would also like to add that the Paladin seemed really squishy by comparison. So much so that it made me worry that a Fighter may be somewhat of a requirement. Without a Fighter... I guess a control heavy group could succeed. I am just surprised there isn't another Tanky type class... unless I am missing someone. Perhaps a Paladin, with a healer working double time, could get by? I am a bit perplexed all in all.

You get better rewards in the Cyclopedia for Lore, yes. However, IIRC Josh said in a stream that it updates faster with Lore. He didn't say that it only updates if you have Lore skill maxed. It isn't a pass or fail scenario. I would also expect that one of your 5 companions could have lore for those updates, but it may be the defacto "only the PC can have this skill or benefit from it in this way" skill. I am not sure. Still don't see the problem. As, if a companion has the lore skill... the Cyclopedia will update. I may have missed a statement on this, but it won't change my view on it. Particularly because a barbarian (intelligent or not) with the inability to apply the knowledge wouldn't necessarily gain those insights. No, you aren't rewarded for talking. You are rewarded for completing objectives. Some objectives may be completely combat oriented, others a mix, and some completely non-combat. Some ojectives may force you through non-objective areas with non-objective combat. Of course there could be another Quest in town that will reward you for beetle killing, or not. We don't know. There could also be objectives that present themselves without a quest giver or interaction. Objective XP is the equivalent of the DM just waiting till you are at a solid stopping point for the evening session before totaling XP. I have done it many a time in games like D&D. It is just in Video Game form here.

Awesome!! Welcome to the forums!

@BrokenMask Yeah, sorry, but I don't see Bioware's fanbase as black and white like that. I use to be among them, and romances were never my favorite thing. There were a few that i liked, but mostly because they were executed in a way that kind of serviced the story (Kotor). I just enjoyed what Bioware was trying to do pre-EA buyout. They were trying to bridge the gap between action games and RPGs, and they have. It sucks they have faultered in their ability to do what made me enjoyed them. Tell a relatively simple, but fun and cohesive, yarn. I still think they could pull people from dragon age's fanbase. Perhaps even Kotor. There is a reason I was specific about the game, though. As DAO is Bioware's go at a spiritual successor to the same game that PoE is a spiritual successor to. Seems sensible you might have potential customers there. Obsidian should have a check box in the options for removing the pause feature, and challenge all Moba players to beat the game without pausing.

Keep in mind that Obsidian has said that there will be other solutions to situations than just combat. If I keep doing the math equation 5-5=0 I won't be a mathmatical genius next week. If you kill 30 beetles, of a similar variety, you will not be the No. 1 Exterminator of North America next week. Xp is an abstract system, but many have trouble abstracting it because of years of it being conditioned that there is only one way to handle it. It is there to allow the DM, developer, what-have-you the ability to control power creep within a campaign. Obsdian is also a story based company. That is there strength. They are rewarding players for participating in their stories instead of mowing down their monsters. Seems sensible to me. All I know is, that I have had many a game in the past where combat XP has caused me frustration because I didn't play my character in a way that killed everything in my way and everyone that didn't agree with me. I innevitably had to grind to get back up to level with content because the quest XP wasn't enough without the Combat XP. I can't think of a single instance that Objective XP could have a similar effect on a person's game outside of them skipping all of the quests. I just don't know why anyone would skip an large abundance of quests in an Obsidian title. Oh, and Obsidian is rewarding you for combat. You get Cyclopedia updates (based on Lore skill) and loot. Heck, Cyclopedia updates make more sense than divvying out xp for kills. Since killing a few beatles will basically show you their strengths and weaknesses. This means that someone becomes more versed in fighting that particular creature, and can use that knowledge to make combat with them easier. Where killing 3,000 gibberlings somehow (in a game with combat XP) makes it so my warrior is also versed in fighting Ogres, Drakes, Bassilisks, etc. That makes 0 sense to me. In PoE though... That fighter might still be level 1, but I would know the ins and outs of gibberlings and their fighting strengths and weaknesses. That makes total sense, and... I am back to the point I was making at the beginning... I will stop now.

Yeah, I am in the same boat as Sensuki. I play both MP and SP, and I am leaning more and more toward single player as I get older. Which sucks because it seems alot of Publishers are moving toward very multiplayer catalogs, but it is what it is. I am happy with Indie if that is what I get relegated to playing. Anyway, I know a few hard core Moba players, and they are all gamers. Some are like CoD players in that they only play that Moba or CoD, but many are just gamers and the Moba just holds their interest more. They play their Moba of choice between other game releases and fall back after they beat whatever game just came out. Or after they burn out on that games MP. I think hitting Moba players is a good idea though, but I would also hit blizzards fan base as well. What I always loved about the IE games was that they were something inbetween an RTS and a TB RPG. They sat in this wonky middle-y, grey area. Some single player Starcraft, Warcraft, and Diablo fans might bite. As is equally likely they could snag some Moba players. I think looking toward players that first experienced the Rtwp gameplay with Dragon Age would be worth levying some marketing toward as well. There are people that prefer the combat in DAO yet never played the IE games. I know a few.

He will be missed. I agree he always seemed down and out the past few years. I have already busted out my copies of Good Will Hunting, Hook, Death to Smoochie, and Good Mourning Vietnam as I would like to watch them again. I will definitely miss his comedy and his amazing acting abilities in general.

So might, not dex, is the DPS primary stat for rogues and rangers as well as the conventional heavy hitters? Might governs healing, damage, and carrying capacity for all classes. However, AoE and durations on effects are governed by Intellect. Dexterity increases accuracy, and thus will decrease grazes and increase full hits and crits if I am not mistaken. While Intellect increase AoE and Duration. So, dexterity and intellect could be a DPS gain with the right class, skill set, play style, and/or situational uses.

Who watches the Watcher?

I've been playing the Wildstar beta the past few weekends, and I find it pretty fun. At least for PvP. I also just tried the Tesla Effect demo this week, and I am incredibly excited for its release this upcoming week. Tex is back!

I have been playing the weekend beta of wildstar. Although I had swore off MMOs, I believe Carbine has me sold on a preorder. I am a PVPer, mostly. Their class system, or Limited Action Set as they call it, it's pretty cool for duels and pvp in general. It almost reminds me of official Magic: The Gathering play. You have a deck with a small sidebar of cards in MTG. In wildstar you have 30 class abilities and can only equip 8 (22 sidebar) at a time, but can freely swap them out when out of combat. So, if someone is trumping your build in a duel you can respec between duels with abilities to better counter his build. They seem to be fighting cookie cutter builds, it may be a lofty goal, but right now they seem on target as different builds can be very differently abled. This isn't just from a trinity perspective either as you can increase CC to fight a very mobile build, or increase DPS to counter healing, etc. Highly recommend any MMO players give it a go on their next weekend beta in May. I got a free key from MMORPG, and there were a great many ways to get them.

Yeah, I have a few friends that only know about Clutch from l4d and/or Walking Dead. It's all good IMHO.

I like all 3 of those albums, for sure. Lateralus is easily one of my favorite albums of all time. It is my favorite Tool album. That said, I love Clutch, and their new album (Earth Rocker) I really enjoy. Their album Blast Tyrant is amazing, as well. Most of my other favorite albums of the 21st century fall more so in the Metal category, but I consider more rock. Alabama Thunderp***y - both Fulton Hill (more metal... Kinda Skynyrd meets Pantera) and Staring and the Divine, Uncle Acid and the Deadbeats - Bloodlust, Sasquatch - 2, Five Horse Johnson - most of their albums, Fireball Ministry - Second Great Awakening. Most of these bands follow in the early Black Sabbath style of Riff Rock though, and I like that style. It isn't for everyone though. I am not gonna link a clip from all of these, but here is a song from Clutch's Earth Rocker album.