Osvir

I want to call the "the price should be less" argument a fallacy. But I don't know if "fallacy" (Wikipedia) is the correct term to use. (Hm, this quote might fit here, (Obsidian forums), as well) I suppose... if I understand it correctly... this post (the one you're reading) would then be an unintentional/potential, "intentional fallacy"? (Wikipedia) (I'm not 100% sure if it is even the right term to use in this context or in this thread). Regardless. A) Pillars of Eternity is in the same price range as other Kickstarter products at release. Wasteland 2 is $40~ (at $20~ at the moment due to special promotion). Planetary Annihilation is now at $28, and previously around $35-$45 (not to forget that it spun a bit of a controversy when it went for like $150 on Steam, it's down $10 due to special promotion at the moment). Divinity: Original Sin goes for $40~ too. B) Pillars of Eternity has more content than many games that get released. Look at Evolve, for instance, which goes for $60~ (full AAA price), and it hardly has any content. Listen to what Angry Joe has to say about it (YouTube). The point I want to make is that... if you don't compare with other titles, research the market or even understand the market (of video games, not clothes, cars or physical media) even a little bit then yeah I guess I can see how you're less compliant about the pricing of Pillars of Eternity. But if you have a bit more knowledge about the market and if you follow the latest gaming trends, gaming news, games that comes out, upcoming or recently released, then you'll have much more understanding (duh) and I believe the price won't be a negative "hindrance" or "obstacle". I suppose the hierarchy looks something like this: 1. AAA titles release at around $60-$70 (Dragon Age, GTA, Evolve, Skyrim etc.). Very well marketed and/or very well known companies. 2. Kickstarter "Boom" titles at around $40-$50 (Wasteland 2, Divinity: OS, Pillars of Eternity, Shroud of the Avatar). Well-known companies. 3. "Regular" Kickstarter titles at around $20-$30 (Broken Age, Massive Chalice, Darkest Dungeon). 4. Less known indie developers, at around $5-$20 (Simpler or less known games and game companies that don't get much coverage/has no marketing) Thinking about it some more I can't help but wonder if pricing has a bit to do with "company fame" and "company popularity" as well. The bigger the company, the higher the price? The more popular the company (and games they make), the higher the price? Supply & Demand. If fans, supporters and gamers "demand" that Blizzard make WarCraft IV, then Blizzard will surely "supply" it, and surely at a higher price too...? Going back to this thread (Obsidian forums), and reflecting a bit about it too... is that, games being made hold a similar value to products and antique wares that age over time. StarCraft became a more valuable IP with time, and StarCraft II is and was more worth now than it would've been had it been made and released right after StarCraft: Broodwar. Similarly, WarCraft IV is a much more valuable product today than if it were to be made right after WarCraft III. It'll be even more worth in 10 years, 20 years and so on. Similarly, "Baldur's Gate III: The Black Hound" or even a sequel to "Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal" is probably more worth today than it was way back when (if it were to be developed, and be a good game, and made by a popular developing studio on the market today). Oh well, sorry about that tangent~ Finally, I won't deny that, if I got to choose, I wouldn't mind getting all games for free :D (Gabe Newell*? Hook me up? Pretty please? ) *holding my thumbs for Google analytics pulling through as well xD I want to confess that I'm not attempting to speak on behalf of Obsidian or necessarily defending them (but I don't think their pricing is steep in comparison to other titles like Pillars of Eternity, or even in comparison to bigger budget titles), but I am interested in the discussion about pricing, market, trends, Kickstarter, development, and video games in general. Maybe I should take my thoughts and make a new thread in "Way off Topic" or "Computer & Console" *shrug* maybe

Out of context, this is a funny statement. Yep (and fixed Sensuki's post)

I totally forgot in my post. I will remain skeptical. The wurm, drake and dragon evolution is interesting and all but yeah, too many games handle dragons poorly (according to my tastes/preferences, most games makes dragons into drooling monsters that you fight and battle with). Firkraag is pretty cool... and so is Shadowrun dragons, and also Odin Sphere (and, of course), Tolkien's Smaug. I am curious if dragons in Pillars of Eternity are capable of possession or transformation (Taking the form of a human, or other races, like the ones from Shadowrun or Firkraag in Baldur's Gate II), but I don't want that to be answered here (I want to find out in-game). Regardless, I will remain skeptical of their narrative value until I've experienced it first hand in-game.

I've seen a couple of these statements made by forum members here and it got me curious because I was doing some comparing with PoE pricing with some AAA titles. The price for Dragon Age: Inquisition on Origin is $71 where I live (converted SEK to Dollar). SEK = Svensk krona (Swedish crown). Which means Dragon Age: Inquisition is priced differently depending on where you live, no? (A lot of new AAA titles on Origin goes for $60-$70 where I live by the way) Pillars of Eternity on Steam is €42 where I live, which converts to $46. I'm just trying to provide some perspective, and also finding interesting contradiction in the comments saying "Pillars should be cheaper than AAA titles!!". Well.... it is by quite a lot too. Also, more perspective for those of you without badges: Bronze = $5-$99 (Only $20 and above = Digital Copy though, which was limited to "25,000 backers", notice that it says "All Gone") Silver = $100-$499 Gold = $500+ $20 being the price for the Digital Copy (During Kickstarter, limited amount). $29 being the price for Slacker Backer (After Kickstarter). Then $25 for an Extra Digital Copy (During Pledge Site). I don't remember what the price was for a single Digital Copy (without any "Deluxe" deals) during the Pledge Site time, but I think it was in the $25-$30 range.

What about metal sandals or spiked shoes? (Monks kick and punch, after all)

4:30 PM EST is 10:30 PM CET for us Europeans. EDIT: Might as well Western America: 7th of March 13:30 (01:30 PM) Eastern America: 7th of March 16:30 (04:30 PM) Central Europe: 7th of March, 22:30 (10:30 PM) Moscow: 7th of March 00:30 (00:30 AM) Asia/Beijing: 8th of March 05:30 (05:30 AM) Australia: 8th of March 08:30 (08:30 AM) That should cover "most" timezones. Give or take an hour or two (or three) if you live west or east from one of these locations. EDIT EDIT: Source: http://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/

^

Oh right, I see it now. (It's obvious in the enlarged image.) I'd guess that we can loot it but its value isn't going to be as high as might be expected from the size of it. What if dragons gold isn't actually gold but a pile of dragons/drake poo? Guy A: "Look at the gold!! Ungh but what's that smell?" Guy B: "That's not gold bro" Guy A: "What are you talking about... look!" *takes some gold, it starts to melt in his hand and smells even more* "Huek.... huk..." *runs off to vomit* Guy B: "Told ya, we ain't getting rich from that drake dung" Of course, it's probably a pile of loot that the MC can use to get somewhat rich. If we have a stronghold, will we be able to "mine" it and bring it back to base by using minions/slaves or other means?

It wouldn't be possible because there are no props. The maps in Eternity are all flat 2d images. Every map was made is just a picture... there is no map editor, no texture importer, no props. If someone makes an eternity map they have to make the whole thing by hand, then by hand, do the entire navmesh based on the image. Can someone make a map image. Sure. But if it isn't up the graphical standard of what is already in game and does not match that "look" it will stand out like a sore thumb. And again, good luck setting up the mesh, creating all the triggers, linking the areas, making the encounters, etc etc. It would be a monumental task. https://www.dropbox.com/s/phkndd32e2x54m9/example1.bmp?dl=0 Just to clarify. Red = Edges of the structure, if you'd be able to rotate those objects that's the sort of effect (what we see) that you'd get. Green = Obvious Blue = Obvious Purple = Lower one is a rock that is sunk into the background texture (common behavior for a 3D object) and the floating rock is also common behavior for a 3D object with a shadow/dynamic shadow. https://www.dropbox.com/s/gtm896rkw4lyo51/example2.bmp?dl=0 3D rotation = What I mean is, it "hints" towards 3D rotation (because of the asymmetry with the other 2 pillars) EDIT: Found it. Okay okay, the wireframe of a tree, bush, door, house and so on can be manipulated, rotated and so on. https://d15chbti7ht62o.cloudfront.net/assets/001/119/395/c9644947e88db3c54b88ac82d28eb353_large.jpg?1381643540 Here's some 3D wireframe examples btw.

Varying degree of skill, experience and understanding. I used the Blizzard made assets for my map making and I found it fairly difficult to make my own assets (which I also tried to make, but it either got corrupted or textures didn't look like I wanted them to, frustration got the better of me). I never said anything about animated assets btw (which, to me/my experience, skill & understanding, sounds like something that'd be even more work/difficult). EDIT: The original DOTA was created by using WC3 assets, not any custom made ones whatsoever. That was something that developed over time (years, even). Abilities were WC3 abilities, scripts were WC3 scripts and so on. Lots of clever use of existant assets. I remember playing it from one week to another, and the abilities started to look different. Lots of question-mark boxes, issues and bugs haha, but in the beginning it was just using Blizzard's hero abilities and unit attack animations.

Props! There's a ton of them in Pillars of Eternity. Why wouldn't it be possible to take like... the ground texture of Dyrford Crossing, or slice out a square of grass and then make a full area with the grass texture, then add props on top of it and then triggers/region to enter areas and so on. Here, take a look at those pillars here. I see about 2 variations of the 3D structure/pillars that has been rotated (there's 5 around, but there's only 3 types). You can also see it on the smaller parts. Or those trees, the bushes, the ground texture and so on. Hues/Colors. A lot is copy+pasted+rotated. Meaning: There should be tons of assets that you could use to create your own maps. It's not a question of creating entirely new assets, but being able to use already existant assets. Even in WarCraft it is fairly difficult to create your own assets, which is why you use the already existant ones to create custom maps. Question is: Are those Pillars of Eternity assets available? You can see it here too: The top pillar and the left pillar. It's the same object/asset! They're just rotated. I wouldn't be surprised if the right one is the same as well, but the "crack" or "demolished" part is directed away from the screen. If these objects are 3D, rendered into 2D, then why would it be difficult to re-purpose these objects/assets/props and put them on another map or another area on another "ground" texture? I know for a fact that the houses at the stronghold are unique assets as well. Because they have a "broken" state and a "fixed" state. Which you can see here: 00:46-00:52 There's tons of assets/materials/objects/models that could be used for map making.

I'd throw my money at it. Though, I hope that, in order: 1) Pillars of Eternity sells well and gains lots of revenue 2) The expansion sells well and gains lots of revenue 3) Obsidian can fund Pillars of Eternity 2 by themselves 4) Kickspansive* (Which totally should be a thing!) *What Larian Studios did with "Divinity: Original Sin" and what Harebrained Schemes did with "Shadowrun: Hong Kong", which basically is/was "This game is coming out and we have enough money for it, we have done all of the project management for it and we have a deadline and stuff but we'd love to add more to the game". This way, if Obsidian wouldn't get enough funding from Kickstarter on their second go it wouldn't be the end of the sequel/IP. What I hope for most, though, is that Pillars of Eternity 2 is more of an expansive sequel. Keep the old areas with new/updated (according to the story/narrative) content inside of them. In simpler terms: Making Pillars of Eternity even bigger. - Pillars of Eternity 1=Pillars of Eternity 1 (Example: 100 areas) - Pillars of Eternity 1+Pillars of Eternity 2=Pillars of Eternity 2 (Example: 200 areas+updated content) - Pillars of Eternity 1+Pillars of Eternity 2+Pillars of Eternity 3=Pillars of Eternity 3 (Example: 300 areas+updated content) etc. ^All of them in one = Pillars of Eternity (No need for any numbers) Like BGT (Baldur's Gate Trilogy) or BGTutu, which both puts both titles into 1 title. Making it one game instead of 2 games. That's what I hope they do with the "sequel". Instead of making a sequel, they'd more or less add more on top of the first. Imagine if The Elder Scrolls would've been developed that way.... Morrowind+Oblivion+Skyrim, one game that just... expands and becomes larger with time (I really hope that Bethesda is developing a single player "The Elder Scrolls: Online" title. That'd be epic on so many levels). In the same terms as above: -Morrowind=Morrowind -Morrowind+Oblivion=Oblivion -Morrowind+Oblivion+Skyrim=Skyrim etc.

Edit time ran out, forgot to say "and being able to compete with movie/book romance". I believe it is/would be possible, but it would require a ton of time and work to feel as meaningful as it does in movies/books. Each companion and party structure would require their own dialogue, narrative, stories and so on, from start to finish. Plus, you'd have to add all of the Player C&C input on top of that, or vice versa. I also believe you'd have to have a much more freeform way of handling the game. Having a much more open world, and especially where you begin/start the adventure/spawn, in the world. Baldur's Gate (the first, not related to romance) would have benefitted an immense amount of allowing the Player to start in different places (As a Cleric, start at the "Temple", as a Thief, start in "Baldur's Gate" or even being able to pick your starting position and then start your adventure from that point). Though, the narrative of Baldur's Gate is so reliant on Gorion so it might've never worked. Wizardry 6 to 8 trilogy attempts something that I find really intruiging (you always start in the same place in 6, but depending on how the game ends... you might find yourself starting elsewhere in 7, and then elsewhere in 8... multiple endings and multiple beginnings)... I hope Pillars of Eternity sells well, because appearantly there's "early endings" in Pillars of Eternity, which could set the second installment to begin with multiple beginnings in a whole new way :D ............... gosh..... I was only going to write that one sentence after the quote but then my fingers ran wild

Jumping into the discussion/debate just to repeat my sentiment (or, I might've started this post several times but then thought to myself "Nah" and never pressed that "Post" button~ *shrug*). I think romance would enhance the narrative experience but... it shouldn't be a mini-game. It should instead be a part of the companions personality. In Bioware games it's more or less a railroad dialogue path for all characters. It doesn't matter much how you go about your dialogue, you'll end up with a romance option eventually (unless you're all "Negative Attitude" and making everyone hate you). What I'd like to see in romance options would be more of a genuine approach towards it, where each companion has their own preferences adhering to their characters. For instance, let's say X companion is totally into Aggressive characters, but doesn't like Stoic characters, you'd get hints and flirts from X companion if you made an Aggressive character, and you won't get any of it if you make a Stoic character (but instead another companion might be totally into Stoic characters and you can make a pass at that character instead). Romance should also be complex in a way that, YOU as the Player might find a companion attractive and can romance them early (if you've made a compatible character for a companion) and then YOU realize that "This companion is... ugh! I'm ending it!" and that that awkwardness and depth to it should be included as well. After all, early love is often fantastic, but as you get to know each other better you start to learn flaws in each other. A romanceable companion might even find flaws in your character and might end it as well. I understand why romance is hard to write, because there's so much complexity to cover to make it really good. The best romance is the one that is set in stone from the very start. The MC or Protaganist will fall in love with X character regardless how you built them. Book or movie romance (which is awfully difficult to recreate in an RPG with tons of C&C). One of the very best romances that I've seen in games is in.... the Final Fantasy games (Final Fantasy IV, VI, VII and IX) aaand.. Kingdom Hearts. In FFVI & VII it is very much implied and they cover many areas of romance (Celes and Terra, and, Tifa and Aerith). I'd say VI is a bit more romantic though. In Final Fantasy IX, it is very much implied that Garnet and Zidane kiss at the very end too. Kingdom Hearts narrative is romantic, but Sora and Kairi doesn't necessarily have a "romantic relationship". Those "romances" are not "mini-games" but they are part of the story/narrative/characters. It's not something you try to achieve but it is something that happens like it happens in a book. In Harry Potter, Ron and Hermoine, Harry and Ginny, they fall for each other, it is part of the official narrative and it happens. In ME and DA, nearly every character falls for the MC. It's flat, but sure... it is inclusive... In Bioware games it is a mechanic. One could compare "romance" in Mass Effect and Dragon Age with "lockpicking" and "hacking", hence, it appropriatly falls into the same semantic... "romancing". Every character is romanceable just like every locked chest is unlockable. It's not good "narrative", but there is no denying that it is inclusive "game design". Final notes: Romance works best in games that has a definite story with little to none C&C (e.g. some Final Fantasy games, Movie/Book romance/narrative). In C&C heavy RPGs... really difficult and rather complex if it were to compete with movie/book romance. There's also the aspect of... the difference between a "romantic narrative" and being able to pursue "romantic relationships". For instance, Kingdom Hearts has a "romantic narrative" but it isn't a "romantic relationship". Don Quixote was written during the historic "romantic era", but it isn't a book or story about "romantic relationship" but rather a "romantic narrative" (well, "chivalric romance"). I guess what I'm trying to say is, I enjoy a good "romantic narrative" that touches me emotionally, but I don't like "wannabe romantic" mini-games. TL;DR: - Romance mini-games (a.k.a. "romancing", "lovelockpicking", "heart hacking"), to quote & link a recent movie, "smells like balls". - A romantic narrative can be really good, though, it works best in movies and books. Can't think of a single C&C heavy RPG that has "excellent" romance or romantic writing/narrative. Though, many C&C heavy RPGs can have good "chivalric romance", but not so much "love romance". - I challenge a game writer/author to attempt to create a romantic narrative that allows for pursuit of romantic/love relationships and make it work excellently in a C&C heavy RPG

Instead of making a completely new thread I'll use this to ask... Are there one-handed flails? I checked the BB quickly to see if there were any in the shops or during character creation but couldn't find any (I seem to recall a Priest of Skaen or someone having a one-handed flail but I may be mixing with one of the IE games and the many encounters). Reason being: Dual-wielding flails is EPIC (imo, "cool" factor) in the IE games. EDIT: Nevermind But hm... no starting flail (ctrl+f "Flail")

I want to finish up my current play with Baldur's Gate II and ToB before Pillars gets released. Also working on making a party for Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition buuuuuuuuuuut... probably not going to happen before Pillars of Eternity is released. I have, however, realized that dual-wielding Flails is absolutely amazing and if there are one-handed flails in Pillars of Eternity I'll know exactly what to do with my Barbarian :D Also got started with State of Decay: Lifeline after finishing the original title (Breakdown was a... breakdown... made me wonder why I even got the DLC to begin with). Great game(/series?), with some unfortunate bugs and mechanics/balance issues (my truck full of food got stuck on a railing and decided to make a flip and explode xD). I hope there'll be a more punishing/dangerous zombie apocalypse State of Decay 2 game at some point. And how is the game for you? I tried it but it got boring real quick.. It is just what I wanted at this juncture. Nice short adventures with a bit of strategy and resource management. Every once in a while a character I have been building up awhile gets put in danger and that is a bit of a rush of adrenaline which is fun. Almost finished getting my last couple classes to level 6. Starting to get a little stale but after 50+ hours that is to be expected for a game of such small scope. Looking forward to the new classes and dungeons later. This f-king game! It's brilliant! Amazing! Fun! Very intruiging concept! I love the art style, I love Kickstarter and I love Klei (who are tributed to by the Darkest Dungeon devs, Red Hook, in the opening screen). But the game is oh so frustrating. Had a really nice and fun party, "One more room, one more room!"... and I was understocked for the adventure but I just wanted to finish up the quest. Everything went fine and dandy until everyone got afflicted, just before the LAST ROOM! Everyone got reckted, and I decided I'm going to wait til it gets closer to release. Otherwise I'm going to pull my hair out before it is even feature complete and burn myself out Though, I can see myself coming back to it because it's such a great title.

That... sounds like an interesting potential for a game concept/mechanic on its own. Only allow 1 character in your party to fight, whilst the rest is more of an entourage/escort group that you protect/defend. Hm.

Or, buy it and mod in a romance option to your liking/as you want it to be~ Romance options are manipulative game mechanics anyways, so I don't see how it'd be any different to just mod it in. "I want this character to fall for my character!" shouldn't matter if you do it in-game or in-mod. No? Because it's practically the same thing.

Maybe something freudian is going on in here... someone wants romanceable options with Joe.

I just recently finished Baldur's Gate again, and, there was a moment where I felt "I'm glad what Obsidian has done with the resting mechanic, in comparison to this". I barely used any potions, I don't even think I used magic very much either. I just went through a fight after fight, when I went down to lower health (50% and below), I rested, then repeated. I just wanted to blast through Baldur's Gate though, to get to the second one with my character. Just got out of Irenicus dungeon and ready to explore every nook and cranny. So much to do in BG2 though, it's pretty daunting just thinking about it

Another one? (thread) Might as well :D Hearth Orlan Barbarian, because... those dudes are awesome! Then I'm definitely going to pick up/find Kana Rua (Aumaua Chanter) and Hiravias (Orlan Druid). Then probably... Durance (Human Priest), Edér (Human Fighter) and Pallegina (Godlike Paladin). I'll have.... (formation/in order front->back) 1 Main Tank Fighter 1 Sub-Tank Paladin 1 Melee DPS/Two-Handed Barbarian 1 Jack-of-All Druid in the middle somewhere (I'm hoping there are two-handed staves that work like wands but with a bit more "oomphf!" in their AA* damage) 2 Ranged (Chanter and Priest) It's possible to recruit all companions too right? So I'll probably switch around the composition during play, but that's what I'm going to work my main party to be, added with unforeseen consequences. * Auto-Attack

^Yes! [EDIT: Relevant to gaming history /EDIT] I started with a Spectrum ZX in my childhood, youth turned into consoles, and adulthood into PC, and I started digging further and further into the past. Since joining these boards I've explored tons of old-school PC games. Researched into its history and... in many titles I have played, I also feel something has been lost from the old age, even though I wasn't there to experience it first-hand. I've taken the opposite journey through my gaming experience/viewpoint (in comparison to grognards), I started with "the new stuff!" (console, next-gen, popamole etc.) and then gradually explored backwards into time for "the old stuff!". Maybe that's just natural for a game enthuasiast? In our childhood we love the new stuff that comes out, and as we age we get bored with the "same ol' same ol'" that is usually catered to the next generation, and we explore backwards, near philosophically, "Where do we come from?"

He's saying "if there wouldn't have been a Super Mario game until today". Meaning there wouldn't be a Super Mario success to copy-cat/emulate/imitate/simulate/rip-off. It's a hypothetical question that would require a lot of analytical research, thinking, history study. It's like saying "What if there had never been a Legend of Zelda series until now?" or "What if there had never been a Final Fantasy series until now?" or even "What if there had never been a Baldur's Gate series until now?". It's a question with no real answer (a.k.a. "I need to put myself in an advantageous position by asking a BS question-card") because there's no end to the possibilities what would've happened. What sort of consequences would a non-Super Mario past look like etc. etc. it's an extremely difficult question to even hypothetically answer with too many variables. A better example would be Angry Birds, which was an "original" concept and released more in our recent timeframe, and sold an immense amount. Why? Simple designs, easy to understand and easy to get into, easy to laugh about and easy to pass time with, and easy to "conquer" with a neat scaling difficulty per level/progression.

@Stun & Mazisky: I think your discussion fits better in this discussion. But maybe that's just me. EDIT: Might as well, I guess *sighs* The game industry as we know it wouldn't have existed.

^Definately. Whilst Joe's review and even Twitch stream will generate more interest and exposure (a.k.a. marketing/promotional value), aggression will do the opposite. EDIT: Page break, responded to this.