Osvir

The fix could be very simple..... make Shadowing Beyond a Talent/Out of Combat Utility Ability. Individual Stealth Get.

I feel even more energized seeing these comments <3 I've also considered trying to find a partner, someone to bounce ideas with and develop with. But where, and who? I also started filling out an "ask for funding" from one of the big industry companies, but stopped when they asked for my company information (stuff I don't have). Kickstarter has been a thought as well, but last time I checked they didn't have a service for Swedes.

Nothing wrong with them being overpowered but, I think they could give a penalty, "Potion Sickness" if chugging too many in a row and might give other penalty effects if continuing. Scrolls could have a "Scroll Fever" effect, if using too many in a row by a non-magic class will cause it to become Wild Magic. In comparison to a Wizard with 4/4 Spell Casts on Level 1, a non-magic Class (Fighter) could perhaps cast 2/2 Scrolls, and everything below 0/2 (-1/2, -2/2) would cumulatively increase RNG of disaster (Wild Magic). Hm, would Wizards & Priests be more interesting if you could cast magic below 0/4? (Infinite spells, but riskier with time) -1/4 could decrease "Chance of Success" (cast wrong spell, backfire in face etc.) by like 50%, and -2/4 to 75% etc. Expansive thoughts/brainstorm~

You should've used a Baldur's Gate City picture for comparison, or a Pillars of Eternity Wilderness picture Infinitron This pic is a PoE wilderness area to compare with Infinitron's Baldur's Gate example (it's a bit big which is why I put it in Spoilers)

Meh, fun overrides Thematic Narrative, imo. No worries though, this issue is already fixed for me. I was just momentarily excited that maybe Obs had added in Healing. This boils down to differing design ideology discussion that I'm not going into here. But! I am curious, and asking a bit of an impossible question to answer but still: Imagine the system being exactly the same as it is now, but "Health" is called something else (Let's say.... "Mortality", or better, "Exhaustion" or "Fatigue", because the only way to heal "Health" is by Resting) and "Endurance" would be called "Health", thus, all the "Cure Endurance" spells would have been "Cure Health" spells.... would you have been as bothered/disappointed as you are about "No Healing"?

Obsidian did a big Lore Update about Life & Death in Eora, or at the very least in the Dyrwood/Palatinate (So the Health dealio should make sense by now... no?). Who knows, maybe developments in the lands for expansions or future sequels in the world there's a Gifted Scientist who finds a way to restore flesh wounds and broken bones with the magic found in Eora. Thematic Narrative overrides Mechanical Gameplay, imo.

Endurance.

1- Recovery Time. Often times (just like in the IE games) drinking a potion is risky, because you stop doing whatever you were doing, stand still for a bit, then drink the potion. You're gonna have to time them. My characters have been knocked out so many times from using potions, or my Priest getting knocked out when casting a spell (and panic follows). 2- Hm? That's odd. I haven't noticed Potions being spammable or even instant cast/instant use. They always take a lot of time... maybe with a character with pumped up Dexterity (Action Speed) and items towards Action Speed. 3- Scrolls are amazing. If you have a party without a Priest or without a Wizard, Chanter, Druid or any spellcaster... say, maybe you want a Magical Monk or a Spellflinging Rogue? Scrolls! Scrolls allow the non-magical classes to be built into magical classes. Scrolls allows you to build a Red Mage (Wizard+Priest Scrolls, or a Priest with Wizard Scrolls). 4- This I agree with regarding some enemies (Rival Adventuring Parties for instance) might be chugging potions, use scrolls, have enchanted armor/weapon, rest bonuses and so on. Groups such as Medreth, Nyfre or the Adventuring Party by the Egg. Then again...... - Medreth might not have rest bonuses, why? He's camping outside (And camping outside doesn't give rest bonuses) - Nyfre is staying at the Inn, but is paranoid and might not have gotten any rest whatsoever. Or she's fully rested and has bonuses. - Adventuring Party = Adventures and thus rests outside. Resting bonuses would, in other words, only apply to specific groups of NPC's where it would make sense~ Nyfre, for instance, would make most sense. The Skaen Cultists are thrash mobs, and don't need resting bonuses, and only a few of them could have scrolls or potions. Ultimately, I'd want Obsidian to balance the encounters for vanilla release though, and this sort of adjustment or patching might fit best in a mod (WRE = Well Rested Enemies Mod). I think it would require lots and lots of work to go into each encounter and/or enemy types and add bonuses and balance to it all.

I'm not assuming the devs want anything except me to, fundamentally, enjoy their product (which I am ), I'm talking about what I want because I see greater potential in something that I believe others would enjoy as well, and where I see it applicable, I.E. where Shadowing Beyond could reach more worth, more potential and even more enjoyment (for everyone). It's a great skill, but I feel that it is currently sub-optimal, it is like Gohan before he awakes his Hidden Power (Dragonball reference). I want to emphasize that this suggestion/analyse of Shadowing Beyond isn't particularly directed at Pillars of Eternity for release or for priority, it's a D-list priority (or whatever the "Suggestion" letter was, and Obsidian already knows this themselves), thus something to look into for expansions, patches and essentially the future. I usually say this, but seems I've forgot to do it this time. My 6 Rogue Party is doing well too, playing on Hard. Shadowing Beyond is really useful in fights, and it's also useful to get past targets (and in combination with traps it's super fun ) and also useful to escape fights. 2x6 Sneak Attacks on Kograk also takes him down to "Near Death" with my rather weak and not optimal party. But I could do 2 Shadowing Beyond nearly right after each other as well. Didn't manage to take Kograk out, but with some tweaking with items, gear, food and rest bonuses I bet I could do it. Start with some eyestrikes and crippling strikes, then Shadowing Beyond x2, would probably take out Kograk and potentially a bear. Also, having 6 Escapes is hilarious! You spread the damage recieved on all 6 Rogues, and positioning is super important (and it looks freaking cool!). As all of them are melee, you can easily encircle targets with Escape as well (And everything becomes backstabs). Big spiders also go "Squish" when you do 6 Shadowing Beyond xD Shadowing Beyond is probably much better if you have several Rogues (2-3). Mind you, this isn't a typical party. In the "normal" party I used, Shadowing Beyond was useful for disengaging (just like Escape) and repositioning (just like Escape), with an added bonus to be able to Sneak Attack. With 6xRogues I could also retreat from combat if it got too hairy. Hit & Run attacks, take out one or two Beetles, then go invisible and stop combat (Camp if needed), then return, take out another or defeat the rest.

There is a reason it can't be used out of combat. You want to stealth around outside combat we have a perfectly functional stealth skill in the game. The fact that you can exploit it once combat triggers is well... an exploit. Hopefully the devs will do something to fix it, or just take the ability away since no one wants to use it for it's actual purpose. Which is to break aggro and score a free sneak attack. The underline is also a reason why I made this thread because, I couldn't sneak past combat. Whatever I tried to do, it would start combat and thus "Stealth" would fail. It was the Adra & Stone Beetles, I tried every path, but every time I tried to sneak past it, the yellow circle started. I.E. it was impossible to sneak past the Beetles = The Stealth skill is not functional in this instance/against the Beetles at the level I was at (that might be a design choice by Obsidian I don't know, e.g. "You can't sneak past the Beetles cus they have a keen sense and they are insects" or something)

*shrug* I've said everything I've wanted to say already But the ability is not, Karkarov, triggering because someone is attacking you. You can do it in combat even if the enemy is not targeting you and you are standing on the other side of the map, just as long as the "combat state" has begun. EDIT: Maybe I didn't say everything? It also has a 10-12 second duration. It doesn't matter whether you'd use it as a "Pre-buff" before a fight or if you do it in a fight, it is always successfully cast, and is cast instantly. Casting it before a fight gives you a short window to do anything with it, and in a fight it gives you just of a short window to do anything with it. The only advantageous thing you'd get if you'd use it before a fight, out of combat, would be to have a free roam scouting ability and you'd be able to get past obstacles otherwise impossible with the standard Stealth ability. You'd also only be able to get past with a single character, meaning that you have 5 characters still left behind (unless you have a 6 Rogues Party). You can't progress the game, and you can't defeat any enemies with the ability (in a party). What you can do is scout/turn invisible. You wouldn't be able to Rest if you scout past a group of enemies either (to attempt to refresh the Per Rest counters). Hm, this got me curious... I wonder... 6 Rogues... 6 Shadowing Beyonds... hmm... brb.

Shadowing Beyond makes you invisible, meaning it would allow you to sneak past enemies in full stealth if it was Out of Combat. With the short duration it has, you'd only be able to scout, and it could even be risky if the timer runs out in a bad spot. Using any items/attacking or whatever will reveal you as well. It's a perfect (potential) scouting/stealth ability. The link in one of my previous posts takes you to the Wiki if you want to read up on the ability description.

Don't get me wrong by the way. I want to watch xD but: A) It is not part of Backer Beta playable content (modifiable content, I suppose). B) It is close to release. C) I'm hyped xD

Didn't look, don't want to see. Spoiler? EDIT: I know it's the backer beta forums ("BEWARE OF SPOILERS") but a visual spoiler tag does do wonders. I mean no ill, just thinking the game is getting closer and closer to release. @Mods: Will this "Backer Beta" category be archived/closed/KS Backer-closed (something like SA) or stay open?

Fthang! You are probably correct (about Fireball), I haven't played much of the Beta lately. I guess I assumed more abilities & spells had become "Combat Only". I've played 458 a couple of times (but not as many or as in depth as the previous ones), and I've noticed more abilities being "locked out" since previously and seeing comments about "Combat Only", I most abilities (if not all) had become "Combat Only" (projecting my experience/perspective). I'm also having difficulty playing the Beta, because 99% of the time playing the Beta I'm thinking "I want to play the full thing" xD

I've been advocating against this in the past, but I still recall advocating for it in a "One Single Time" type of Quest/Narrative/Thematic way and that it'd either: 1-Turn your character into a Level 1 Character (Goodbye all levels and experience) with all the new attributes/skills/talents/class/culture/background or whatever you choose, basically make a new character. It could be explained as follows: You, the Player, chooses to use the "Machine" that sucks your soul out and place it into a new vessel, a soulless character or a mold of a character, a golem that perhaps could take the shape of whatever Race. This would let you respec and would make most sense in the world to "respec". A narrative-driven respec. It comes at a great price of course, because you're starting all over on those levels. 2-You get to respec once, but only the Class-type (and nothing else). The "Respec" Machine lets you sacrifice your "warrior" soul or whatever, your lifepath/class soul and inject the soul of another warrior/lifepath/class soul. Thus keeping all the levels you had, and obviously losing all Class abilities you had. Example: You are a Level 6 Fighter, and when you use the Machine to become a Rogue, you become a Level 1 Rogue with 5 level ups. Still with the same attributes, but no longer any of the talents/class abilities and so on. Partial memory swipe/amnesia or similar, taking a bit of the soul and replacing it with something else. I'd think a Narrative Respec could be awesome, and a Mechanical Respec (Go to Respec Dude, pay tons of gold, respec) is appaling. Footnote: I'm not in favor of Respec options, but if it were to be done I'd hope it would strive to be thematic, and hopefully limited and not flat and soulless like in an MMO.

@Litany: I didn't even think about that, but you're absolutely right (the synergize) *thumbs up* :D @Yonjuro #1: I can see where most people come from and if I were to choose myself, I'd do without it but... in a combat design like Pillars of Eternity, I accept and understand the choice of "Combat Only" design for spells and similar. It is an anti-pre-buffing design as well as an anti-"Crush your enemies with 6 fireballing Wizards before fight even starts"-design. There's been tons of discussion on this. I guess hm, a "Combat Only" design would shine the most if there was a button of some sort triggering "Combat Stance" which characters/NPC's react towards*. "Hostile Stance" or "Hostile Mode", something the Player has to trigger before casting a spell (I.E. going into Hostile Mode near Medreth's group could trigger them to go into "Hostile Mode". Spells would then instead have "Hostile Mode Only", it would fulfill the same thing). But this sort of design would require more work, with sheathed weapons and similar~ so that the Player can make sense of "why" Hostile Mode/Combat Only is a required flag. I mean, if I pull out my sword, or start flickering in my grimoire preparing to cast a spell, that in itself should warrant a sort of reaction from the enemy/opposition or those in close vicinity a la "What the hell are you doing!?" and go hostile themselves and maybe even manage to interrupt the spell casting before it finishes. Needless to say, that's tons more work. "Combat Only" allows the opposition to react, and it creates more challenge in encounters. But spells and abilities that have an application outside of combat should not have "Combat Only". Shadowing Beyond is such a spell (IMO) and there are others too, others that'd require tons of work on the rest of the game (Whisper of Treason for instance, e.g. take control of a bandit, assassinate the bandit leader with him, and leave no trace. Or gather intelligence from the city watch by controlling a guard, leaving only confusion and a magical residue as a clue). @Yonjuro #2: I suppose I didn't do it justice, because I deliberately excluded the early- to mid-combat uses for Shadowing Beyond (where it is most effective and has a bit of a purpose). You are absolutely correct it isn't worthless, but it could be worth much more. I wanted to address the potential Out of Combat uses for Shadowing Beyond and late-combat uses problems. ---------------- *Going into "Hostile Mode" or "Combat Stance" (Readied Stance or whatever you would want to call it) in the middle of the streets of Defiance Bay could warrant a reaction from NPC's, Guards, attackers or defenders, whoever is close. Needless to say but I'll say it anyways: Would require tons more work. Hm, thinking about it... TES games does this, but it's so normalised that I think many don't even think about it too often or too much. If you hold a weapon up, guards will approach you and say "Take that weapon away!" or even draw their own weapons. It's way more advanced than what PoE got now, but I think that ultimately that's where a "Combat Only" design approach ends up. To cast a Spell in Skyrim you have to "Draw Weapons" in that sense, Skyrim's combat system is a "Combat Only" system, in essence~ because drawing weapons = combat mode.

Got it. I'd think Axes would have Bonus Deflection too if Hatches have them, and perhaps, like you say "5 isn't much", giving them more through the tiers could make it more of an interesting choice through the entire game.

That's what I was trying to make sense of for you in my post (I.E. why they are good at deflecting blows/lowering damage)

If I think it's odd that a hatchet has deflection? Nope, if I recall correctly the Vikings were fearsome warriors/soldiers with the axe and shield, and developed some techniques with it. Here's some first-glance research I did but, an Axe (or Hatchet) can hook objects due to the curve of the blade+hilt, legs, arms, neck, and pulling/dragging to get the opponent off-balance. A sword thrust would easily be deflected or "hooked" out of the way (just like the guy is hooking the leg in the video at 2:20-2:30) 2:20-2:30 2:50-3:10 4:00-4:10 2:00-2:30 explains some more about holding the shield/axe too and why. 2:50-3:00 disarming a sword 3:30-3:50 binding the sword to the shield/disarm Hope this was insightful OP

I thought the Backer NPC's felt out of place, and that they might more or less be promoted or shown off in the Backer Beta for those who Backed that tier a la "Look, here's some of your NPC's you made". Some (if not all) of the texts don't fit with the Dyrford Village, it's as if they are (or were) intended to stand somewhere else that fits better with their text.

Let me rephrase then: Shadowing Beyond is a broken ability (not because "Combat Only" flag), as Escape fufills its function just as much without any wonky issues (See example 2a to 2c in First Post). It is not "broken" as in "Overpowered" but rather "Mechanically Broken". Why would I do Shadowing Beyond, or even pick this ability when I can do (pretty much) the exact same thing with the "Escape" ability? (Disengage/Reposition/Flank) I didn't make this Thread because of the "Combat Only" flag entirely (it does touch the "Combat Only" discussion, yes), I made it because Shadowing Beyond is broken and it's a sub-optimal ability. It is, ultimately, the same thing as Escape, but with broken drawbacks. It is an ability that is suited for a Solo Character or for a Scouting Character, problem is that the Latter isn't possible (because of "Combat Only"). To fix "Shadowing Beyond", it'd either have to be an Active Targetable Sneak Attack a la "The Rogue goes invisible and Sneak Attacks the target" (I'm thinking something like Talon from League of Legends, a short ranged teleport backstab) or a Non-Combat Stealth Skill. Any of these two would solve the ability and make it more viable. As a short-ranged teleport sneak attack In essence, it'd be more of a combo attack, 3 sequences in 1 attack/1 active per encounter (see below) - Escape - Shadowing Beyond - Sneak Attack/Auto-Attack Except, you wouldn't suffer the recovery time between each of the abilities. If the ability became something like this, then it'd be a much more viable choice, and the "Combat Only" flag would fit better with it. As an Utility Stealth skill No "Combat Only", but allows the Player to sneak past obstacles otherwise impossible to scout behind enemy lines. It has 2 Per Rest Casts currently, so it'd mean you can Sneak past enemies whilst being invisible, find a spot where you aren't seen, continue to scout, even lay out traps or whatnot, then return and use the 2nd Cast to get back to the group. The Problem/Issue I have with Shadowing Beyond - Combat Starts - Fight goes bad = Everyone is knocked out (Except Rogue) - Rogue does Shadowing Beyond - Combat State Ends, Everyone gets up with Low Stamina - Enemies are still alive, Stamina won't regenerate - Combat Starts again - Everyone gets immediately pummeled - 2nd Cast of Per Rest Shadowing Beyond - Everyone gets up, low Stamina and low health - Combat Starts again - Game Over (This happened in an earlier build for me, but I didn't think too much about it, not enough to post about it, it was a realisation I had on my latest play) Shadowing Beyond = Not a good ability in Combat, as "Escape" fulfills the same purpose of getting out of disengagement. The only difference is that Shadowing Beyond allows for an "immediate", in combat, Sneak Attack. EDIT: Or make Shadowing Beyond an "All" Cast Ability (I.E. Targets all of your characters rather than "Self"), but then it'd be pretty "Overpowered", but it would mechanically function as a "Retreat", "Flee", "Run Away" or "End Combat State" Ability.

This (thread) is about a specific ability (which has a broken situational functionality, see "2a to 2c" in first post), not about all abilities. I don't mind the "Combat Only" flag for Offensive or Buff Spells/Abilities. I just found it frustrating that this Utility Ability (Thread Title), isn't the Stealth Ability that it could be... and the Stealth Ability that Pillars of Eternity is currently lacking.

I attempted to play a non-combat approach (thus dumping Constitution and Might and maxing the other attributes as much as possible) but I quickly met with an opposition at the Dyrford Crossing. There was no way to sneak past the beetles EDIT: In hindsight, I never used any traps >.> /EDIT I played a solo Rogue and my attempt was to get to Kongrak without any combat, and then attempt to take the Non-Combat choices with Kongrak (which I recall being possible). I took "Shadowing Beyond" as my trump card in case I would get into combat, and it functioned just like I wanted it too (with one exception, which I'll get into in a bit). I accidentally triggered combat, used the ability and managed to "escape" from the Combat state, thus managing to fully retreat from combat successfully for the very first time playing the Beta. The exception being: It is a "Combat Only" ability. Seeing as the Rogue is the only Class that has this ability, I can't quite wrap my head around why it's a Combat Only ability. In a party of 6 the ability has very situational functionality. EDIT: I did consider triggering combat just to be able to use the ability and then get past the Beetles but that felt unintuitive and weird so I avoided doing it /EDIT 1) The Rogue is low on Endurance/Health and needs to reposition. Use Shadowing Beyond and the Rogue becomes untargetable and can use a free Sneak Attack. 2) Everyone but the Rogue is knocked out, and the Rogue escapes using the ability (but it would also trigger "Combat State ended" and thus re-awaken everyone who was downed and probably trigger Combat again). Broken functionality 2a) Everyone gets knocked out except the Rogue (Enemies are thus still alive) 2b) Rogue uses "Shadowing Beyond" and ends combat state. 2c) Everyone gets up from knocked out state (But enemies would most likely still be around, thus triggering combat again) I am curious if "Shadowing Beyond" can become an Out of Combat Utility Rogue Ability instead. A tool for scouting past, "beyond" enemies in a full party of 6, and it could become a Solo Rogue Character's ability to sneak past a lot of enemies (but obviously not all of them) on a lower difficulty tier (where I presume a Solo Playthrough would be most doable). Thoughts?

Funny thing, I haven't been very active on the forums too much (lurking PoE Category though), but this thread has developed a bit like how what I am doing is developing (I'm working on my first title, a simpler product, my dream project will have to stay on the shelf for later). I'm pretty much finished with most of the design and am going to start with broad strike implementation in a "little bit" (ETA... 2-3 months?). I'm taking the first steps next week towards starting a business, and I've found an engine I'm enjoying as well (with license). Excited! :D