PrimeJunta

@Abloec Now that there is a legitimate criticism. It would be a nice improvement for the monk, like picking a god for a priest or an order for a paladin. Perhaps they'll implement it in an expansion. Framing that as "therefore the character system lacks in depth and progression" is kind of a non sequitur though.

I've only found relatively minor stuff. Possibly one or two marginally useful items but that's it.

You're thinking of BG2. You do see some of those spells in BG1 as well, but mages have so few spell slots until very late in the game that you'll barely ever use them unless you rest-spam out the wazoo. I do like the BG2 spell system better than the P:E one, warts and all. IMO they should've built on its strengths rather than just attempting to eliminate its weaknesses (such as easily abusable save-or-die effects, or wildly differently-valuable spells at any given level).

Party member skills are used in scripted interactions. Conversations only use PC's skills. Replayability, mang. Mechanics is unusual in that yeah, you only need one lockpicker and you need to boost the bejeezus out of it for that character. Whether it's good or bad is a matter of opinion natch.

Wizards are really bad with swords in P:E as well.

Wizards are way better than in BG1. Low-level AD&D wizards are terribad, and for most of the game your wizard will be low-level. They only start to hit their stride around level 8 which is near the end of BG1. In P:E OTOH wizards are pretty powerful from level 1. They're only slightly lackluster compared to druids (which rock).

Note also the item descriptions. If you want crazy accuracy, Rogue/Fighter + Weapon Focus Noble + single-handed rapier.

@Abloec: I still don't understand your complaint about the rogue. Rogues shouldn't wear full plate because... why? Shadowing Beyond is a supernatural ability. It's not stealth, it's invisibility. Why should what you're wearing limit that? And as to the speed penalties, they're already in. If you think armor should limit the "precision" of attacks, then why would fighters be immune to this penalty? As to the deflection bonuses, you seem to be complaining that rogues are squishy unless you build them not to be squishy. Is this what you're saying? If so, where is the problem? Do you feel rogues should always be squishy, or that they should be as good at not getting hurt as a fighter in full plate even though they're in a T-shirt? Or something else? I haven't played D:OS so I can't comment on that. As to the ranger pet leveling up, sure, why not -- that would make sense. Edit: re accuracy in stats, there's a reason they removed it. Accuracy is so crucial as it determines not only to-hit chance but crit chance that having it in the stats turned DEX into a pump stat for everyone; low-DEX builds just weren't viable except as priests. The alternative would have been to nerf the DEX bonus to insignificance which wouldn't have been much fun. It's contentious though; Sensuki and Bester are modding it back in.

Yeah 'pinions man. Most of the things I'd like to see changed are matters of execution rather than design, e.g. the way toons often refuse to attack the target you designated but switch to something else, or run back and forth because there isn't a path to the target. Or balancing issues; the paladin seems a bit underwhelming ATM for example, and the wizard needs to be beefed up a bit to match the druid in its main mission. Little things. Design-wise, the biggest thing I'd like them to change is stealth. It's serviceable but not really all that interesting or fun. At least make it per-character, allow re-stealthing in combat if you move out of the field of view, and, ideally, switch from circles to circle+cone so you can sneak up on people from behind. Designing stealth as a game mode was a bad idea. I also disagree with some of the decisions made in the spell system. While it's not bad by any means -- combining things to attack weak defenses to debuff stronger ones so you can do damage is interesting enough in its way -- it could be a lot better. The wizard self-buffs are useless because of the opportunity cost in time: removing pre-buffing outright was throwing the baby out with the bath water. There should also be room for more interesting counters than just Suppress Affliction. But I'm really digging the "core" character mechanics -- the way each class plays genuinely differently, and the way you can skew them in different directions. I also like the combat more and more as I go. I don't know if I'm in the minority, but I am enjoying dealing with the engagement mechanic -- using it to lock down enemies, observing it to see when I can move with impunity, and dealing with it when one of my squishies gets engaged.

Plenty of things could've been done better, and plenty of things could/should be fixed/adjusted in updates or expansions. I feel a long dissertation on the topic stewing in the depths of my misanthropic soul, but I won't release it until things settle down here a bit. It's still a massive success, little warts and all. JES can design an RPG system that's rich, varied, and fun to play. Take that doubters!

In re the fact of the matter is that there isn't any real discussion going on, just people shouting at one another. If you're into that sort of thing, hey, Twitter.

The manual is wrong. Accuracy is no longer in the attribute system, and the base accuracy for the classes has been changed. Read the descriptions in character creation. There's also a manual errata page here: http://eternity.obsidian.net/game/manual-errata

They + the orlan cipher detective were dropped. Instead we got Durance, The Grieving Mother, and Hiravias.

I wasn't saying it does but fact is unless a monk/rogue is planning on rolling tank they will not get any of the deflection based stats, Per/Resolve. Why not? Like you said penalties on stealth, penalties on mobility, to me what you are talking about is just a fighter who is wielding daggers. A rogue wearing full plate will not having the mobility to pull off precise attacks which is what a rogue is. Precise deadly attacks. Full plate already imposes a penalty to action speed. Rogues are subject to it just like everyone else, and their DPS suffers. What was your problem again? Fair 'nuff. In a perfect world with unlimited budgets and schedules, sure, maybe, but in the world we live in, I prefer the tradeoff we have. I wasn't talking about the new wounds mechanic. I was talking about the general character mechanics compared to AD&D. You already conceded that BG was a bad example and you should've said NWN2 instead. I wasn't discussing NWN2. Most of your complaints seem to boil down to "This isn't like D&D therefore it's bad." I can't really argue with that, because obviously this isn' like D&D and if you're a huuuuge fan of D&D, well, that's personal preference again.

In those cases the mods start the new thread though. I'm pretty sure this is

Uhh. Here, have two level 10 fighters. Now go fight Firkraag. Good luck. Here, have a level 10 wizard and level 10 cleric. If it takes you more than 6 rounds or so and you're taking damage, you're doing something wrong.

@Luckmann http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/72923-psa-game-breaking-bug-affecting-everyone-including-you-temporary-fix-for-party-members-only-currently/

That's... a pretty good idea actually. Thank you!

Damn, I haven't even tried Slicken. Forgot all about it...

I really dig the way FF works here. I used to be against the "green fringes" AoE but I really like it now. I get a special kick out of opening maneuvers like having Aloth and Hiravias up front to open with a couple of those cone-shaped spells, then duck back and have Edér and Pallegina close the gap. Would be much less fun if they could do that safely from behind the line to start with.

You missed the point, the slippery rogues and monks are no more because of how simplified the stats are now. It's all in might now. Big heavy armored tanks that just take the hits tend to have high deflect so if you consider deflection as dodge than the tanks wearing full plate mail now dodge more than the rogues. See what I am getting at? Full plate mail doesn't contribute to Deflection. It only contributes to DR. Monks have the highest base deflection in the game, the rest comes from attributes, modals, and shields. What was your point again? That's a legitimate preference. It's different from mine, but it's legitimate. I prefer a system that doesn't impose artificial restrictions on classes. I mean, why wouldn't a rogue be able to wear plate mail? Having it impose penalties on stealth, for example, would be totally understandable, but what magical force prevents him from wearing it in the first place? That's not true. It depends on how you skew the build. Fighters can become better tanks or better damagers than paladins. Paladins are leader/support types; the main contribution is the aura which buffs everyone in the party. If the game was fully voiced, they would have had to lock down the dialog months before release. They wanted to be able to continue working on it until the last minute. Partial voice allows this. It's a good trade-off from where I'm at. They did this fully aware that some people wouldn't like it, which is why they were clear about it from the start. I just did and you conceded the point: AD&D character mechanics are dead simple and almost completely on-rails. If you're talking about D&D3, that's a whole 'nuther conversation. IMO P:E's system avoids most of the biggest problems D&D3 has but D&D3 is much richer and broader -- no surprise there considering that it's a much older system.

Uh... which BG are you talking about? Advancement in AD&D is almost 100% on rails. All you get to do is allocate a weapon proficiency pip every 3/4/5 levels, plus assign rogue skill points if you're a rogue. With BG's level cap, that means a grand total of three pips for a fighter, who gets most of them. Deflection is dodging. That's a legitimate preference. One I disagree with, but legitimate. (Gear restrictions in particular -- it's a lazy way of balancing difficulty when you're providing too much too strong gear.) Not in this game they're not! Yeah, it's a side dish. It's kind of a fun side dish though, I'm enjoying pimping it out. Yep, also characters often don't attack the character you tell them to attack. This needs fixing. They should only stop if engaged. Strongly disagree here. Limited voice is the reason we have so much and so good writing in the game. The partial voice acting does give the characters personality. I very much like it this way. I don't see how this is simplified compared to the IE games. The character mechanics are way richer. The spell system is smaller and less interesting IMO, but you never even brought that up.

@jpbl1976 IMO arbalests and firearms are opening-volley-only weapons. They're devastating that way but too slow to reload to be much use for the rest of the encounter.

Depends on the enemy's Concentration and Deflection. A dedicated interrupter build dual-wielding stilettos would be lulzy against low-deflection, low-concentration enemies (which aren't that hard anyway, but hey), same guy single-wielding a stiletto would be pretty effective against a high-deflection, low-concentration enemy, and same guy with a two-hander should be able to interrupt a high-deflection, high-concentration enemy a lot of the time, especially if it attacks slowly, like an ogre for instance. Slap on Concentration or Deflection debuffs as indicated. The enemy's attack speed factors into it also: you'll be able to interrupt a slow-attacking monster effectively with a slower weapon. This is all theorycrafting from me BTW, I haven't actually tried an interrupter build. I have stunlocked ogres though by mobbing them.

Which wizard class are you talking about? Reveal Vulnerabilities is a bleeding' awesome debuff and has turned several otherwise hard fights into cakewalks. Fetid Caress and Curse of Blackened Sight also. Wall of Fire is a "win" button for any fight that doesn't have teleporting enemies. And so on and so forth. I haven't tried the defensive spells, largely because of the opportunity cost. To be useful you really should be able to cast them as pre-buffs IMO.