Umberlin

Well, in the end, if well done, it can be cool, however, let's be realistic - you're ambivilant for good reason, it's really easy to mess up and there are games that have messed it up. So, in my mind, you either do it, and do it very well, or you realize you can't do it as well as you'd like, so you don't. In addition, it just doesn't fit with some types of RPGs, where others it fits into better. My opinion is that the more open, sand boxy, RPGs benefit from it most, the less open ones just aren't going to benefit from it as much. Well, I think it's something that requires foresight, you need to make sure you start all your visual effects with the idea that they're going to be recolored. I remember seeing the CoH forums years ago, and a developer explaining why they regretted not planning ahead for power customization, as adding in power customization later (which they eventually did) took more resources than if they'd just planned for it in the first place. Quite so, context sensitivity, so to speak, is important - the drawbacks, and in some cases other effects, available need to be sensitive to the effects you've selected to a practical extent. It doesn't. The games I've seen this end treat them like the particle effects in general. Your hammers, for example, are going to act like a projectile if you choose them to be delivered as a projectile. They fall from the sky if you choose a rain. They explode from the ground if you choose the delivery method that comes from beneath the target/selected area. In terms of 'summons' however, you're quite right. The games I've seen that let you manage summons were very limited, with very pre-determined summon types and behaviours. Consequences are essentially, 'what happens when the spell goes off' so what happens when your projectile hits a target or a wall or the floor. What is the consequence? You've already selected the effect, in this case the effect is damage. So left blank the projectile hits a target and does damage. If you selected a consequence like 'splash damage' you'd choose the range of the splash. Now the projectile explodes dealing damage over the area. Consequences are very pre-defined, and there aren't a lot of details you can meddle with. For example the 'cloud' consequence creates a cloud where the projectile hits, and the duration selection determines how long the cloud stays in place. So your projectile creates a cloud that deals damage over the duration selected (like the splash damage you'd also define the size of the area the cloud covered). This is actually very similar to systems that actually exist. - While I dislike Two Worlds II as a game, again, it's a great example of spell creation moving toward better methods - it uses a card system where you combine effect, delivery and other cards to make your spell do what you like, and its cost is determined by the cards used to create the spell. It even has the methods I talked about like deciding whether your projectile/projectiles track their targets or not. Not all of what I mentioned is from Two Worlds II (drawbacks for instance are not from TWII), but almost all of them have actually existed in one game, or another, that I've played (though never all at once, that I'm aware of), to some extent. I decided to use mechanics I've seen in games, and not just mechanics off the top of my head, to keep things in the realm of what is actually possible - in other words, if I've seen a game actually do it, then I assume it's possible. While it's neat to talk about, I actually don't think it's a practical thing to do in P:E. I just thought it was interesting to talk about.

I always felt like there should be zero cross over, in terms of spells and abilities; when it came to Druids, Clerics, Wizards and Sorcerers in D&D. That wasn't the case. I still feel like that, however, and in P:E, even when you have a similar effect, I'd like to see each class handle said effect in their own way/style. Rogues and Warriors are the same, in my mind, in that I don't really want them to feel the same even if they're using a similar or the same weapon.

I'll never understand any of the justifications and excuses I've seen from the people that consider Humans boring. I've heard countless reasons why people think Humans are boring - you know what's boring and uninspired? Writers so talentless, uninspired and lazy that their last resort for new races is to mash a Human and a random animal together bug me. Most non-Human races in games, to me, come off as Humans, Human cultures and societies, with a random non-Human visual slapped on them. As such Human, to me, typically come off as the more creative, and it's only the very rare and very creative non-Human races that come off as worthwhile.

In the sense that they are not exactly the same thing, true, but, as you said, like the D&D Psionic, they fill what is essentially the 'mind mage' place in various Fantasy game repertoires. Their description doesn't really leave any other possibility. The role is described using the setting's internal logic of souls, in the form of soul manipulation through mental prowess, but at the end of the day they're still using their exceptional minds to do the fantastic. So the point isn't moot so much as you've shifted away from it intoto semantics and hair splitting, as a manner of dismissal.

I'm not a fan of the game as a whole, but Two Worlds II actually had insight on how to make 'creating' spells by combining different aspects better, it wasn't perfect, but it was on the right track. Concepts beyond that game exist as well with ideas I'll just mash all together for fun (note - this is not the Two World's II system, or any particular system, just a mish mash of different things I've seen/heard about): Spell Type Is it a damage spell? Is it a spell that blinds? Is it a spell that conjures an item? Perhaps the spell merely makes you smell funny. Perhaps it calms you. Maybe it causes the target to levitate into the air, and be unable to move. Perhaps it levitates the caster into the air. Perhaps it makes the target weigh twice as much or makes a limb, your choice, stop working. We're talking the actual effect here, and not how it's applied. Think in terms of: "Damage, lower resistance, increase resistance, lower defense, increase defense, levitate, fly, water breathing, increase 'stat', decrease 'stat', increase 'skill', decrease 'skill', apply 'status effect', 'remove status effect' and so on and so forth. Different effects having different costs. Spell Element Spell element would be a way of determining resistances in the case that such a thing is needed for the spell, in the case of a damage spell it would mean that if you chose fire the damage spell would be a fire type. However, you could choose, let's say a random much type for the game, arcane, and receive a different visual effect. As a result this functions within a resistance system, but even in spells that need no resistance type it helps dictate their visuals for purposes of making your own spells. While it has a practical application, in resistance part of it is purely visual for the pleasure of the caster. Spell element is misleading, perhaps, because, while it might be an element like fire, you could, in theory, add in physical damage types and separate them into 'blunt' or 'piercing' or 'slashing' and so on. Perhaps its best to call it spell 'visual' and combine it with the bottom section, but anyways, you could have invisible applications of these physical effects, or phantom versions that are translucent or even wholly solid ones, like beiing chased after by a magically manifested arrow or being clobbered by a magically manifested hammer. Delivery (below) factors in here as well, again, is the hammer a projectile or is it a summoned thing? Some element types are more expensive, for example a 'typless' element would cost the most, as it doesn't have a particular resistance attached to it, usually. Spell Color Let's face it, if you're going to make your own spell, even if it's that fire element above, you're a wizard harry, and you want "Harry's Purple Flaming Ball of Healing Fun +2" ro have that little purple twist that makes the spell all yours. Yes I randomly made that up to be as nutty and out there sounding as possible on purpose. Should we charge more for spells colored black? Spell Delivery Delivery type covers things like, "is it ground targetted? How large is the area?" or, "is it a single projectile or multiple projectiles? Do the bolts go in a straight line or do they spread out? Do they spread out in a particular pattern or at random? Do they track your target? Is it like a mortar, having weight, and falling like a bomb?" or "Is the spell a beam? Is it a channeled beam or a single quick zap? Is it not a beam but a cone?" or "maybe it is a direct spell and is manifested directly at the location/enemy you're targetting instantly" or "is it a summoned entity?" or "blah" and "blah" and "so on" and "so forth" . . . Different delivery methods having different costs. For example the more projectiles you manifest at once, the higher the cost, if they track rather than just flying at random you pay more. The area of the ground target would alter the cost as well. And so on. Spell Consequence Essentially 'what happens when the spell goes off? Whether its applied to you an enemy or the ground - does it explode or does it bounce to another target or ricochet randomly? Perhaps it the spells pierces through targets instead? Does it create a field, a bubble? Perhaps it creates a rain where it goes off? Perhaps something bursts up from the ground? Perhaps there's a cloud of 'something' whatever your effect is, its visual determined by the element and color combinations above. If it's a summoned entity is it a temporary one that runs over and applies its effect then disappears (bomber minion) or does it stick around awhile and hang out? Maybe it makes you a glass of lemonade. And so on. Different consequences would have different costs applied to them based on the value, or 'exploitability' potential of the consequence type. Spell Range How far can you extend the spell. This doesn't just effect initial range, for example if you have a spell that bounces you'd have to determine the range of the bounce. Obviously different ranges have different costs. A touch range spell obviously is cheaper than a spell that hits that guy in the tree a mile away. Spell Power The actual power of whatever effect you're applying. So this would determine the damage capability of a damage spell or 'how' blinded a blinded target (how bad their vision is, do they have partial vision or none at all) is or 'how' snared a snared target is or 'how' healed a healed target is. Water breathing might how a depth added to it, so water breathing only worked down to a certain depth unless you increased its power. Levitation might only go so high. Flight might only go so fast. How hard does the hammer that just fell on your head from the sky hit you? Obviously the more you increase the power, the greater the cost. Spell Duration Spell duration applies to certain spell types. For example how long a blind lasts, or when you're hit with a fire spell, does it unload its damage all at once (1 second) or over time (over five seconds) and how often do those ticks apply (every three seconds for nine seconds or every second for three seconds)? Duration can work for or against the amount of cost. A spell that does 5000 up front instantly is different from the spell that does 5000 damage spread out over thirty seconds. Typically games that have spellcrafting, of any sort, at all, actually up the cost for more front loaded "damage" spells while duration "damage" spells still increase the cost but less so (this is not always true of course, because with a Blind increasing the duration would actually increase the cost, instead of reducing it). A spell that blinds you for a second is just the opposite, you're going to pay less if it only blinds then for a single second but pay more of a cost to the spell if it lasts for 10, 20, 30 or 'whatever' seconds. Spell Secondary Effect What about multipe effects!? While I like customization, the better system's I've seen still have some limits. The better ones only allow for one or two additional effects alongside the initial effect, and limit what those can be. Usually they're status effects like Burning or Blinded or Poisoned or Snared or what have you. You'd also govern the power and duration of these secondary effects under the above noted sections. So you could add burning to your fireball or add a single second stun to your 10 second blind and so on and so forth. Secondary effects obviously increase the cost of the spell in question. They'd obviously be optional. Drawbacks Optional but decrease the cost of the spell by adding in a flaw or 'drawback' to the spell, like the spell stealing coins from your pockets and littering the ground around the target with the coins or perhaps it steals your health or makes 'you' move slower after casting it. How much these reduce cost depend on how badly they afflict you. You wouldn't be able to pile on drawbacks one after the other, much like the system would prevent you from piling on many many secondary effects, but it'd be there. Spell Name Let's face it, this is the most important part. You can't have "Umberlin's Hammer Space Clearing Sale" spell without the name, and it unloads all the stored hammers in hammer space, everyone's getting a hammer, and each hammer falls from the sky and then exploding into coins around the place it hits as your pockets mysteriously become lighter. Everyone is getting a hammer. Everyone. There's one for you, and you and . . . What?

It's really not, it's been too long standing, literally decades, for it to be otherwise. It really doesn't. As far back as the old Wizardry games in the 80s, and prior, to that, there are been what are, essentially, 'mental mages' in cRPGs, and far, far prior to that 80s period even in Books and Films of pure fantasy fare. Not even counting the sci-fi/fantasy mixtures across various forms of entertainment. Where do you get the impression it's been thrown in as an afterthought in this case? Do we have some reason to think all of Obsidian's writers, who've done great work over several games, have suddenly, and simultaneously, taken massive blows to the head rendering them dribbling simpletons? Even your note about it being an afterthought in D&D seems off, when, really, there's are entire handbook dedicated to Psionics alone, I'll grant you it's only been out for a couple of years over a decade . . . but still. It's fantasy, sure, and obviously high fantasy at that but it's a fantasy world where reincarnation and the soul are big deals, that's a quote from Obsidian themselves. What's important to note there is that their building up the rules of their world from the ground up. The Cipher, through the power of their minds, according to the information we have so far, is able to manipulate their soul and the souls of others. They're backing them with lore, and explanation, and obviously there's more to come. What seems an afterthought here? - Anyways, be it manipulating a person in dialogue or assaulting an enemy with a barrage of mental blasts, whatever it is Obsidian decides to do, my concern is the quality of what is there, whatever the end decision. Heck, they can go and give the Cipher both for all I care. In the end I have no real reason to doubt Obsidian from perspectives of story when it comes to characters, dialogues, the world and its lore/history. Story and lore were never their weak point. I'd be more worried about bugs. I love Obsidian and Black Isle games, despite the bugs, but bugs are quite the constant. When it comes to writing the danger isn't things being thrown in randomly, or as an afterthought, when it comes to Obsidian. I more often see evidence that they over think their writing or have too many ideas, and can't fit them all in. Quite a different problem really.

I said that it's MORE of a sci-fi trope, and that I find it a little bit out of place in fantasy settings (I don't mind it though). The fact that a lot of fantasy novels, films and RPGs have been using sci-fi tropes, and vice versa, ever since the New Wave of the 60s and 70s doesn't change the fact that psionics is first and foremost a sci-fi trope, just like magic is first and foremost a fantasy trope. The separation is meaningless, and needlessly restrictive of creativity. I might as well go about burning the last several decades worth of sci-fi.fantasy cross overs and mixtures, of which there are more than I could rightly count if I were to believe otherwise. We'd lose some of the most definitive Fantasy and Sci-Fi out there if anyone were to mind the pointless generalizations.

Some of the questions your asking here, I think I understand it in the context of some games, but, for example, Gothic II is an example of a brand of game that you don't need to question such things. Actually having to earn your way into these different factions, to receive training in their unique skillsets . . . that explains the different between supposed classes. A Class was more of a title, a label, you are one of the Fire Mages because you joined them, and you had titles and ranks within that order (that people outside the Fire Mages may or may not be aware of). I think what made that work is that you actually had to go through the journey to join these different factions, to become 'that class', so to speak. Games where you just 'are' a class, right off the bat, that questions hold more meaning, and . . . it makes me appreciate the system in Gothic II more. What it means to be a class, in a way, is hard to explain, especially in the context of a world around you that sees you and reacts to you. The fact that you're a Wizard in D&D might be relevant, in a crpg, but only to an extent, and it's not like it's definitive beyond certain generalizations - when considering how people see you, if they know what you are at all. In Gothic II people knew you were a Fire Mage, and the things surrounding that fact, on sight - not because they were psychic, but because the Fire Mages wore a particular uniform, and different ranks wore different, very specific, robes. The robes, in addition to any defenses, were a sign of not just that you were a part of the Fire Mage ranks, but where you sat in those ranks. I realize what I'm saying is not entirely in line with some of the things you were asking, but I think it may have some relevance regardless.

Spell crafting can (and has) been done better, and gutting it is pure Bioware school of though. Is it broken or flawed, could it be better? Don't fix it, don't polish out the flaws or make it better, throw it out entirely!

I like the idea as presented: The idea is essentially that they, like others, use the soul, only its the power of the Cipher's mind that manipulates the soul, and, apparently, they're capable of manipulating the minds of others. I'm eager to see the combat applications of this, that Obsidian have decided on, of course, but my real interest in it is for dialogue purposes. As for Psionic style mental blasts and such? I'm not adverse to it, and, as long as it's well implemented and well explained, I can understand that they'd develope their abilities in many ways, including those meant for more direct forms of offense. I rather disagree, and there are plenty of implementations over the years, of such class types - literally decades and decades worth - that I'd like to think that the idea that it's a sci-fi trope would be stamped out by now. Still, in regard to the Cipher, I don't think we have enough information to know, for sure, that Obsidian intend them to be such. It seems readily possible, even likely (it's hard not to draw a line between the Cipher and a D&D Psionic, simply because most of the classes are, essentially D&D Classes 'with a twist'), but they certainly haven't shown all their cards on the subject . . . yet.

Wizards creating a spell, and naming it after themselve isn't a new concept. It actually seems a very appropriate concept, let's face it, some people are plain ol' fashioned vain, and like to stroke their own egos. And, well, you know what, that's part of the fun of playing a magically apt character, if you go by my measure anyways, is the idea that one day, 'you' will be that Wizard making spells and selling them off to adventurers (to make a few coins) whilst keeping the good stuff for yourself. It was one of the things Skyrim lost, as opposed to, say, Morrowind where you could create, "_character name's_ spell that does this or that" . . . though you couldn't sell it, to make money, unfortunately. It's a thing absent from many games though. Anyways, as per Quest for Glory, picking up Erasmus' Razzle Dazzle spell, from him personally, after winning a game of Mage's maze against him, is a most definitely interesting, and fun, way of gaining a spell. At least I think so. Maybe not all spells, but, regardless be it a thing that happens, or not, I still like the idea. Certainly it's not an idea fit for every setting, afterall. I do like it though.

Anyone remember the Elephant race from 2000's Wizards & Warriors PC RPG? I haven't played that old thing in forever. Heh. Ah, I'm smiling, thank you. Holy mother of... orcs are more handsome xD no offense... What about souls? If the whole magic system is about them, why not create a race that exists only as bare souls ( no flesh ), living creatures, not ghosts. Would be fun as a playable race :D Whisp warrior: armor floating and glowing at intersections, whisp mage: bandages and magical runed textils floating around the soul core :D Thief: a black whisp - in stealth it shapes into a shadow on the ground, etc :D I believe I've played a few RPGs, and read more than a few books that used things around that general idea. Actually your idea sounds like the energy beings from the Burning Crusade, somewhat. - Personally I'm not a fan of simple Human+Animal=Our New Race brands of races, but that's me. I'm if the writing is there to support it, it'd be fine. I think I've said it in other threads, what's there is less important than 'the quality' of what is there. My own tastes be damned. It's interesting to see some of the issue here isn't with it being an Elephant, just with the eastern elements. I think I recommend people play Quest for Glory often enough that now, I wonder, should I stop? I think the old Quest for Glory games are spectacular, but the hero experiences everything from germanic to middle-eastern to african to slavic and even greek/roman inspired creatures and situations, a truly mixed and wonderful world full of the bizarre and strange. Heck, one of the creatures from the first game, an Antwerp, is a bouncy blue creatue that spends its time . . . well . . . bouncing, which is all very funny until the first time one comes rocketing down from a high bounce on top of your head - killing you instantly. Nevermind that they reproduce by exploding, usually after being poked by something sharp, into countless little blue, very bouncy, baby Antwerps. . . . Also Antwerps like Avacados. . . . Shut up.

I like, understand, and, to an extent, even want less Humanoid playable races . . . but, I also understand some of the complexities and issues that come into play with such an addition. I think two of the first games I encountered it in were, "Ravenloft: Stone Prophet" and, "World of Aden: Thunderscape" . . . in Stone Prophet, for example, you could bring a Desert Troll into your party. You could get him gear, and the like, as a normal party member, but, of course, being of a vastly different body type it required its own separate brand of gear. Bert the Troll in Thunderscape, again, had this exact problem and couldn't wear much of anything as a result. So, can you introduce less typical characters into a game? Definitely, no question. It just requires thought and planning, as well as good implementation. Still, from both a development and play standpoint, it's more difficult. Not just in what you have to develop, but in what the player has to do. Some games that have done it, by simple nature of most gear being for more normal types, have made using the less traditional characters more difficult. Again, I love the idea, I even like it when it's well done, but I can certainly understand why some developers shy away from it (even if I'd prefer they didn't, and that the ones who didn't shy away from it would implement such things better). Being a developer sounds like a difficult job to me. Hard decisions to make, and you just know some people won't like what you do, no matter what you do.

We have no idea of their capabilities of travel, be the mundane or magic. More to the point, actual, real migration be they slow trickles or large also happened without the aid of modern technology. Migration is not, I repeat, not a difficult concept to grasp, and it's been happening throughout Human history. You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that cultural mingling and fusion can only happen in reality or specific settings, as if it would somehow be impossible in a Fantasy - despite more than a few having done so, I even gave an example of one. Your like of dislike of it is wholly irrelevant. It is quite a word to throw around. It, however, while definitely not applicable to everyone who participates in these threads, is quite apt at describing some, and very accurately at that. One such individual in this thread, and a few more in past threads. Thus, the shoe, unfortunately, does fit some. So he's not amiss for noticing it. Some people have no tact, which unfortunately means there are people out there that are every bit as xenophobic who do have tact . . .

Obsidian are creating a world and its lore, it's not a case of 'they can do what they want because they're Obsidian' though they certainly can. I simply mean, these elements exist in 'thier' story, one could stop and think for the barest split of a single second that they might actually try to make the things fit together, instead of just moving wildly to the most extreme conclussion that it'll be a random mish mash with zero explanation. There are no Caucasians or Asians. It's a fictional setting. They're Human, and their racial traits, regardless of how they look, may mean something wholly and completely different from something similar looking in reality. Yes, I realize you can jump to a wild conclussion that it'll be a mish mash of cultures with no reasonable explanation. Let's not suppose that, if such a mish mash exists, there might be an actual explanation. Let's assume there's a mish mash in the first place, for that matter, and dismiss that the society as a whole may have developed into a combined style for some reason. Let's completely dismiss popular works of fiction that actually have combined various cultures together, purposefully, for different reasons. We may as well assume all Obsidian's writers are hacks with no talent by your logic. Look at Firefly, on a base level your setting is science fiction about a large eastern and western culture absorbing one another and creating something new. If you were to nit pick about there being eastern elements in your western elements, you'd be wrong to do so . . . why? Because the show explained it. So why can't you take the barest of split seconds and think that 'if' there is a mish mash . . . that it might be, dare I say, "explained" nay, "justified" within the lore? But no, let's judge it before we've even seen the lore in the first place, and assume that's it's all in shambles, ruins, it's a catastrophe - a failure - abandon all hope, jump ship she has sailed her last voyage. It's not like Obsidian and Black Isle are known for creating some of the more impressive writing, lore, characters and dialogue in the industry or anything.

Except that ethnic groups develop as a result of climate and geography and you can't just put a bunch of different cultures in a games, but make them all white guys, it's a little racist. Kind of goes back to that whole realism thing everyone was talking about... I don't think that this has actually ever been proven. It's just one theory of why certain "ethnic groups" are the way they are. There are many exceptions to this rule in RL. Even now in America and many parts of the world, we have mixed ethnicities within one geographical location. let's not even mention all the historical emigrations, heck my nation wouldn't even exist without those (although this can be said about most of them too) Indeed, trickle migrations that build up to large numbers over the years, and mass migrations of peoples from a particular area of the world to another, are not an unfounded concept. It's happened repeatedly in actual history, in amounts small to large. There'd be no fault in a fantasy setting using such an element to explain multiple cultures in one area. For an example in a fictional setting; Guild Wars 2 - itpresented a mixed society and areas of their major city dedicated to some of the different cultures (take the Elonan area of the city, for example, with buildings and decorations in Elonan style, separate from the local mix of Krytan and Ascalon style). There are even Canthan elements there, and the people being mixed is a part of the story the game presents. The city is a mix of four cultures (Canthan, Elonan, Ascalonian and Krytan). Even Cantha in the first game represented a mix of cultures with the Kurzicks and Luxons being quite different from one another, and different still from the peoples of Shing Jea Island and Kaineng City (even Shing Jea and Kaineng had elements differing from one another). That would have been neat to see. I've always been a little sad they seem to have abandoned Jade Empire setting, for the many flaws the first game had, there was potential there.

He was one NPC. And a joke on top of that. He wasn't a representative of the game's setting and class system. If he didn't somehow fit into the world, he wouldn't have been there. He was representative of a larger world, cultures beyond the your character was a part of, and the amount of him simply didn't matter. Even one of him disproves what the poster was suggesting.

What cultures are they putting in the game again? Because so far it all seems entirely fictional to me, with any basis in real world cultures being purely a source of inspiration. Beyond that they're free to mix, match and say who developed what in their world freely. They can introduce a fictional Asian culture that developed the Monk's martial arts and surrounding lore, sure, but they don't have to. The Monk, their form of martial arts, and all their surrounding lore can be the result of any story Obsidian would look to tell, actual real world cultures and what they developed need never come into it. Elves could have developed martial arts and all that is the Monk in P:E for all we know, and it's simply been passed onto Humans. If Monks and Forton have eastern elements to them, then Obsidian obviously have a place for that in P:E. If they don't have a place for that in P:E, then there wouldn't be any eastern elements to them. Simple and plain. Jade Empire wasn't ancient China, but I still didn't see any european medieval-inspired Knights in Full Plate or ANY sort of european influence. Then you didn't play very much of it. You can even get a western style weapon in Jade Empire, off of a western styled character. So only games starring white people of obviously European decent can be taken seriously? I do hope you're being sarcastic.

I never managed to get into them either I have to say at least as they were in NWN2, but the basic principle of them seemed like a very interesting and very different approach to spellcasting. I think the key though would be making sure they didn't end up too much like wizards as overly offense based spellcasters. I'd like to try and mix in things similar to what I consider "classic" D&D Druid spells - the key ones I'd say would include things like: Healing Poison Entangle Shillelagh Charm Animal (turn into an ability rather than a spell?) Barkskin (habititat flavoured version? sandskin, frostskin etc) Spike Growth Insect Plague Summon elemental (something a bit more subtle than the big golems of element x for preference) Contagion Things like that can't really be simulated in the shapes system, but perhaps could be integrated in other ways into the spell system. Well even Warlocks went beyond the shape system, since we're talking NWN2, to keeps things familiar, my example would be summoning a pet or a wall of weird blue flames or a wall of icky blast tentacles and so on. They even had long lasting self buffs. So even the warlock broke away from blast shape invovations with essences etc etc. You could design it, in theory, to use the blast shape systme as a standard action approach to their gameplay with the more individual abilities as more powerful, but also more limited/costly efforts. So let's say the NWN2 pet example for the Warlock and your note on Summon Elemental and twist it into the territory system we already spoke on. Some limiter or costly resource helps bring forth the pet, but it's based on your territory rather than being a simple 'summon elemental' with each territory have their own representative 'guardian' to summon. So desert druid example, you summon forth a guardian related to that territory, not necessarily an elemental, but practical and relevant to the costly nature. You could apply the territory system to charm animal in a similar way, only having domain over the relevant types of animals. Entangle and Poison, on the other hand, might be examples of territory specific abilities. Perhaps Swamp gets poison and jungle gets entangle, just as an example. The defensives like Barkskin could also be territory specific, with each territory having their own defensive ability. Healing is a tough nut. I get the idea healing won't function in the same way in P:E at all, so I expect regardless of the system they choose that it will be quite different. In a way that's probably for the best. Personally I'd prefer regenerative healing, rather than reactive healing, be associated with Druids . . . but that's a wholly personal call. I'm sure whatever they end up doing will work just fine. I'm curious if you could make it work inside the territory or blast shape systems we've been talking about. I mean, technically, you could apply any effect to a blast shape, with the real change being the target of the blast shape. Even the Warlock's offensive blast shapes could carry more than simple damage, for example fear or sickening effects. The druid might not do the Fear thing specifically, but if we're talking a contagion . . . well I think you see where I'm going with that. Not necessarily the same, but not wholly different either.

I think you're bringing up a thread we've had several times before. The end all be all is that Obsidian wouldn't have a Monk, or Forton, as they are now, unless they somehow fit into the universe they are creating. The end. This isn't medieval europe. This is not a historically accurate retelling of old timey times. This is a high fantasy Universe created by Obsidian. What makes sense are the things that Obsidian have decided are a part of their world that they have created. Forton is not a Shaolin Monk. Monks in P:E, from what little we know, have several elements. They use their souls, which is not out of place in P:E as the soul plays a big role in P:E. We have been told that in P:E you can harness your soul to super human effect, or the explosively magical. We know that Monks somehow use their souls to enhance themselves physically. We know from the color group picture of the companions that Forton can make his hands come alight with magical energy - suggesting that he can enhance his attacks beyond a simple increase in strength. We know that you can defend yourself, magically, in P:E by harnessing your soul, in one way or another. So everything we've seen of the Monk, so far, has an explanation that is linked to the things we know about how souls can be used in P:E. We also know that mortification of the flesh plays a role in at least some of P:E's Monks. We know that Forton has scars and tattos. We know he wears light armor, and that he may use more than his hands for combat, as he keeps a weapon on his belt. I'd also note that we don't have a full map of this fantasy world, only a partial map. We have no idea what lays beyond the map's edges. Even in reality people migrate from one area of the world to the other, sometimes in great masses. We've had cases of thousands, tens-of-thousands, hundreds-of-thousands and even millions of people migrating, either in bulk or in a trickle over several years. And that's reality, with out history. In a fantasy world any number of things could have happened to cause a mass migration, either in bulk, or in a trickle over years long past, to bring another culture into the lands of another culture - in significant numbers. Monk, as a term, in RPGs, is its own beast, you can connect it to reality all you want, and point out different kinds of real world Monks . . . but it's relatively pointless. Monks in RPGs have become their own thing quite separate from reality, and many takes on what a Monk is exist varying RPGs out there. If you're worried about real world culture nonsense - don't - the cultures, and what is fitting, in this world are defined by Obsidian. If you're worried about Monks and their gear, don't, plenty of RPGs have handled Monks, even unarmed Monks, and still properly allowed for their itemization. If your worried about real world western/eastern/historical anything, stop it. This isn't a history lesson, it's a high fantasy RPG where Ciphers and Wizards harness magical energies just as P:E's take on the Monk seems to, or rather, they all harness their souls to in different ways, and to different effects. I'm not saying don't discuss Monks, or what you'd like to see from them, . . . but please leave the 'Shaolin Monks don't make sense running around Medeival Europe" nonsense at the door. P:E's Monks aren't Shaolin Monks (nor have Monks in any RPG I've played for that matter) and P:E isn't set in Medieval Europe.

I see what you're getting at, with a blast shape styled approach to spell casting you get your variety of spells/spell types, but also the ability to layer different territory/domain types over them to different visual effect. The blast shape system, whatever its flaws, was still a solid system, and it would allow a developer to more efficiently use their resources, as they wouldn't have to create wholly unique spell types to each individual territory/domain type. More bang for your buck, so to speak, but without a sacrifice in quality. The system wouldn't even have to perfectly mirror the blast shape system, just take notes on the key things that made it work, heck, you could even fix some of the weaker points. So, let's talk a base blast shape, your cone for instance: The Taiga Druid would take that cone, and it would be a cold cone blast. The Desert Druid would take that cone and result in a Sand Cone Blast. And, like you said, depending on the territory type, you could bring in various other relevant (to a given territory) effects to flesh out the system. Then you could bring in other blast shapes and go from there. You could even take the base theme, the type of damage they'd typically be using, and add a secondary effect onto them related to a given territory (slows or bleeds or what have you). You're quite right that it would produce a very different tone, to the D&D Druid, but, I also agree, that you could still get something very Druidic out of it if you combined that idea with the Shape Shifting ideas. Thanks for reminded me of the Blast Shapes Warlocks used. I never got into them much, but it was an interesting system that, again, despite any flaws, had interesting merits that shouldn't be ignored. - They probably won't be doing anything like this, of course, but it's still fun to talk about.

If we're talking giving the forms any depth, then any month than tow, three, maybe four seems unwise. Too readily it would fall into 'copy paste' territory, and 'quantity without quality' territory. I'd rather a few forms with deep and interesting specialization options to a great deal of forms with low to no quality, or, worse, copy paste quality. That's my entire reason for keeping it down to just a very few, bare minimum forms, to choose between, only one, thay are then outfitted with the ability to upgrade, modify and specialize in them to a great degree. On the other hand, I don't disagree with you that having very few options could easily lead to them just using the very 'typical' choices (wolf/bear/some form of large cat). In that regard, I actually do understand and sympathize with the point you're trying to make, so, please, don't think for a second I'm dismissing your concern, nor your want for variety in forms. I'm simply, as always, more concerned with the quality of what is there. Sort of like a Cleric Domain sort of deal, only with forms/spell types? You could go beyond the animal forms with that, actually. I talked about the difference between a spell casting Druid and shape shifting Druid, and I wholly believe in that separation. I also like the idea of a, somewhat, Domain like system where the Druids represent different 'natural areas' of the world; keeping it within the range of areas you'd practically find within the areas of the game world we're exploring. A Territory system could define which type of Shape Shifting Druid and which type of Spell Casting Druid you were, and thus what elements/animals you were pulling from. I'm curious what a Desert themed Druid would have at their beck and call, in terms of Shape Shifting Druids and Spell Casting Druids. It would act like the school system, after a fashion, you were talking about, but concentrated more on the nature element - where a Druid and their magical abilities or shape shifting abilities would be dictated by the type of natural territory the Druid represented. In terms of Shape Shifting different territories could be represented by a key animal, of sorts, so one territory might typically be represented by a wolf, another 'this' and another 'that' perhaps a desert snake, of some sort, for a desert territory. Then apply similar thinking to the Druid spell casting system, 'these types of spells represent that territory' so a spell that buffeted you with wind and skin shredding sand might be representative of a Desert territory (just an example, and obviously, again, let's stick to territories we're actually going to be seeing in the actual game world). Still, I imagine some people would dislike their magical or shape shifting abilities be limited by a particular area their Druid represented ('druid of the desert' or 'druid of the forest' or 'taiga druid' or 'swamp druid' and so on), so it's likely completely moot to bring up.

It's true you can do more with AI than we typically see in games, as a general, and not just RPGs, as shown by the very few and rare games that have exceptional and challenging AI. Better challenging AI than things that add tedium, as per increasing as enemies damage/health pool, as if that's in any way challenging and not just a more tedious version of the same thing all over again.

I remember having to collect ingredients to make my magical staff in Quest for Glory III, and then taking it back to Kreesha to perform the ritual that would create it. She even called on you to cast your spells at the staff to seal them into it, during the ritual, fun stuff, despite what happened to it after all my hard work.

In regard to the Druid my solution to shape shifting is to either not, or to really make the player choose. Personally I always prefered the idea of a few very specific forms. Two, maybe three animals to choose from and you pick one of those. Then specialize in that one animal form. Upgrade it. Modify it. Advance it. Gain abilities related to it. As you get better allow for a Hybrid of your base form and the animal form, a war form of sorts. Allow for partial shape shiftings, like your character growing claws or teeth, for quick access to extra damage in a pinch, and have it take less time than a full transformation - for those times when you're caught with your pants down (so to speak). Instead of nature magic as spells, use it to enhance your transformation into this animal, or the hybrid state, to make it better than it would be otherwise. Regeneration. Making your claws stronger than normal claws. Tough hide. Superior strength or speed or dexterity. And so on. Instead of spells, think of new ways to use and enhance the form you've picked, and those are now your abilities.No need for normal spells. Want to be a true spell casting Druid you say? Tough. If you wanted to be a spell casting Druid you shouldn't have specialized toward being a shape shifting Druid. I beleive in this separation. I don't believe a Druid should be casting spells in animal form, and I don't believe a shape shifting druid should be competent as nature magic in the way of spell casting focused Druid. We could skip silly ideas like Druids casting spells in animal form entirely. Different paths within one class. Let the spell casting Druids be spell casting Druids. Let the Shape Shifting Druids really specialize in a form and make it more than just, "I turn into a wolf" and prevent it from escalating into, "I turn into a Dragon!"