Longknife

Hi. Paladins suck. Thanks Josh. Here I'm gonna break down reasons Paladins suck as a class and how to remedy those problems: 1) Paladins are inferior tanks to Fighters, hands down. For a class that advertises itself as a tank, Paladin absolutely falls flat when compared to the alternative. If I have a squad where I need a tank? A Fighter can get +5 Deflection and an extra +2 for enemy engagement from the Defender Modal, another +10 to all defenses with Wary Defender, and another temporary +20 via Vigorous Defender for brief moments of heavy fire. This totals to +15 deflection and +10 of everything else alongside a temporary +35 deflection and +30 everything else when Vigorous Defender is activated, all while engaging two extra enemies. To top this off, Knock down allows a Fighter to get some damage off of him or others for a brief amount of time. Surely we've all had a battle with tons of enemies and one scary looking wizard in the back, and the solution was to run the Fighter through the enemies (naturally engaging them) and knock the wiz on his butt to buy time for the team to pick off stragglers, no? The Fighter later gets an AOE knock down, as well as a Scorpion "GET OVER HERE" skill to pull aggro off of a teammate; to my knowledge this is the only skill of it's type. Lastly, the Fighter regenerates endurance naturally. This means that a good chunk of incoming damage - already highly diminished by his high defenses - will be countered by his natural regeneration. Now let's look at the Paladin. A Paladin can, with the help of Faith and Conviction + Deep Faith, can either get (either because I'm unsure of how Deep Faith works) + 10 deflection and + 21 of everything else, or +16 and +40 of everything else. You may be reading and asking "wtf that's a pretty big difference, shouldn't you figure that out first before bothering with this post?" No, and here's why: this benefit does not exist for any paladins that are not the player character. These benefits are earned by following the proper dialog reputations to the letter. A paladin who picks neutral dialog options will not gain any of these defenses, and it will be quite a while in gameplay before you can even achieve that maximum amount. But for a hired adventurer Paladin or Pallegina? These benefits do not upgrade at all. You don't get them. This means Paladin's extra defense is non-existent for everyone but the player character, and the player character himself will not actually get such immense benefits ("immense" if it's the latter numbers, humble and about on par with Fighter if it's the former) until later in the game. Aside from this, Paladin houses no other benefits to defense whatsoever. These two are literally all Paladin has to try and bring it's defenses above that of other classes, and NPC Paladins cannot access these. While the numbers may be unclear, what's very clear is that Paladin offers nothing else. It does not have knock downs or engagement-grabbing support skills, it does not have extra engagement, and it does not naturally regenerate endurance. The only other tank benefit Paladin has to it's name is a modal that can increase it's DR by 3, while increasing the DR of surrounding allies by 3 as well. While nice, it ultimately doesn't seem to outweigh everything Fighter has. Final Verdict: In an ideal scenario, Paladin can have defenses to compete with Fighter to some degree. However, what Paladin lacks is flexibility. A tank's job is to hold the line and protect the squishies in the back. Fighter has the means to both ensure a squishy getting shot at is less likely and to get that pressure off the squishy should that happen. All of this is topped off with a natural Endurance regeneration which simply can't be underestimated, as it can be the difference between a character losing 80% Endurance to the swarm at the start of a long battle and later being in tip-top shape with little to no micromanagement or babysitting neccesary, and "oh he died 2 minutes ago." There is a reason people pick Fighters, and that's because the tank style they offer is far more adaptable, prepared for a variety of situations, and in some cases (when the Paladin lacks Faith benefits) 100% superior. How to fix it: Let's assume the +16 deflection and +40 every other defense numbers are correct. That's awesome. This is clearly enough to compete with Fighter. However, this doesn't apply to NPC Paladins and doesn't come into fruition until later in game. The fix is simple: adjust NPC Paladins to be affected by the player's dispositions OR have the faith naturally level up over time. Perhaps Pallegina's faith could level up over time since we don't know how her order works (or advertise how it works, passionate and benevolent...?) whereas NPC Paladins would relate to the player's reputations and the player is of course free to hire a paladin belonging to an order that already aligns with how the player acts. As for the fact that Paladins would be "late bloomers" with their highest defense, that could simply be addressed by providing the Paladin with other means to provide for the party in the mean time, namely support skills, which I will criticize further below. 2) Paladins have inferior offense to Monks and Barbarians by a clear margin The other two class alternatives to Fighter that are expected to hang out near the front lines are Monk and Barbarian. Arguably, Paladin tanks better than these two. I say "arguably" because while Paladin can bolster superior defenses, both of these classes are awarded insane amounts of endurance. If you have a Barb or Monk, you'll regularly see them below 50% Endurance, but it also doesn't frighten you so much because the other 50% they have remaining is nothing to sneeze at. It's also a useful tactic for activating many helpful racials. Which of these two classes has superior defense? It's somewhat debateable. I think most of us would agree Paladin, but wouldn't call the gap huge. Their offenses however...? Barbarian, assuming One Stands Alone is not a bug, should need no justification as to why his offense is superior. +20 damage across the board on a class that's in a constant AOE mode is nothing to sneeze at. Hell, it's downright disgusting. And Monk? Well Monk is a drunkard who likes marching into battlefields with nothing but a shirt on. In that sense the "who tanks better" argument quickly dies down between Monk and Paladin, except Monk focuses far more on offense. Monk actively chooses to take damage that he can expect to handle reliably, then turns that damage around into even greater damage for the opponents. If that wasn't enough, Monk gets plenty of utility skills to help out the team: knock downs, skills that help the Monk rush down any dangerous threats by jumping to them...the works. In this sense Monk both "tanks" (outpaces incoming damage, disables incoming damage, moves away from incoming damage) and dishes out damage in an extremely helpful manner. Monk reliably tanks down singular targets while Barbarian can work wonders on groups if surrounded (and of course you'll make every effort to make this happen). Both classes expect to take heavy damage, but bother also expect to dish out amounts of damage FAR higher than what they take. Now there's Paladin. What does Paladin do? Erm, well there's a Flames skill. And uhhh....that's it, really. A modal will give the Paladin (and nearby allies) higher accuracy and - with it - higher crit rate, but aside from that? Aside from that you MIGHT have an extra offensive skill from your respective Paladin order, and there's one per rest skill that increases damage but can only be used on specific foes, not on everything. This is akin to a Wizard's two per encounter spells, except the Paladin's two per encounter spells are single target. I also must say that at least from personal experience, I almost never see the Wizzie's AOE miss a target, but Flames of Devotion can miss just like any random swing can. Point is, Paladin really doesn't have any damage skills to it's name. Like...at all. You use Flames of Devotion, and after that, the Paladin becomes a Fighter with slightly less accuracy.....UNLESS you use the accuracy modal, but the moment you do, you lose the defense modal you might've been convinced to use above...see where this is going? Final Verdict: This is not a contest. It's clear as day. Paladin has nothing to it's name on damage except for two forgettable per encounter skills that are clearly inferior to per encounter skills offered by other classes. Everyone and their mother has more damage output than Paladin; even Fighter can be built offensively if you want and will offer better damage output. Paladin's damage increases essentially stop at Flames of Devotion and never really pick up again. How to fix it: Crank that **** up to 11. Would it be broken or "too powerful" if Flames of Devotion were made strong enough to compete with what Blinding Strike is to Rogue? A Rogue using Blinding Strike (or another ailment skill) on an enemy = dead enemy. A Paladin using Flames of Devotion on an enemy = merely a flesh wound. The thing is, a Rogue gets massive damage boosts any time an enemy has an ailment. If a Cipher or Wizard uses an AOE blind spell, Rogue is in candyland and will proceed to wipe the floor. Even IF Paladin's Flames of Devotion became practically an insta-kill for any mediocre enemy, this would not overstep it's boundaries as it would only clear out two mediocre enemies before the Paladin becomes nothing but a Fighter. Buff that **** up, it won't break anything, and it would reinforce the Paladin's "leader" role as the Paladin would be a class you can send after important targets. Remember when I said you might counter a scary Wizard or Cipher by sending the Fighter to spam it with disables? Paladin would have an alternative method of simply dropping the target dead much like a Rogue can, but a Rogue would retain it's superior flexibility by being able to continue to wipe out enemies if the proper circumstances are provided. I'm not saying this in the context of "yes make Flames of Devotion hit THAT HARD that it instantly KOs the average target," I'm merely making the comparison to Rogue to highlight how Paladin would by no means become OP even IF that were the case. Doing so also naturally boosts all of the Paladin abilities that are activated when the Paladin scores a kill. These too are lackluster because you can never be assured an enemy will die specifically to your paladin if focused at all, but if you're wanting one of those buffs badly, then you can choose to Flames of Devotion an enemy with decent health to get it. 3) Paladin's support skills are all pathetic in one way or another Let's go down the list, shall we? Lay on Hands: This is another case of a "meh" skill (Flames of Devotion) vs. another "meh" skill (Wizzie's per encounter AOE) where the alternative is an AOE. What benefits does this offer that Divine Radiance from Priest does not? Both are per encounter, this one heals more, but I've never known it to save a life in a dire situation. This skill for me has mostly been to either heal my Paladin themselves as a quasi (sucky) Fighter endurance regeneration, or to heal my Priest at a time the Priest has something more important to cast. But in the latter scenario....why not just bring another Priest? The Priest's per encounter spell meanwhile can damage enemies, provide everyone with an accuracy buff (competing with Paladin's modal a tad) and heal anyone who might have taken damage. How to Fix it: Again, crank this up to 11. Give me more reason to use this. Why not make it heal truckloads, to the point where it actually competes with a Priest's level 3 or level 4 heal spell while lacking the AOE aspect? This would be huge without being overpowered. FFS this thing could bring you from 1 endurance to max and still wouldn't muscle in on the Priest's job because the Paladin is limited to one per fight. Liberating Exhortation and Deprive the Unworthy: These are good in theory, the problem? Paladin is already so god damned confused as to what it wants to be that there's NO WAY you're going to pick these very situational abilities over some of the more universal alternatives. These are good abilities, but when I'm offered them as alternatives to all the other things Paladin is trying to be, I'll probably skip these because they're too situational. There's very limited fights where I can imagine needing these. How to Fix it: Make these AOE. If I'm fighting....what are they, Earth Wardens? The little hovering rock enemies that eat my health slowly with their debuff? Or Xuarips Skirmishers that stun? A single Liberating Exhortation can win the fight ALL thanks to the Paladin. That alone would justify the Paladin's existence. Deprive the Unworthy currently is more something for a boss, but if made to be an AOE, then the Paladin can temporarily counteract a buff-happy cleric on the enemy team. Single-target makes these very situational, AOE makes these game-changers, but their uses are still specific enough so that this won't break anything. In return, switch these from per encounter (you're NOT gonna need these that friggin' often) to per rest (would still be very capable of being a game-changer with only two AOEs per rest). Modals in General: Paladin modals are awesome. You know what's not? The piss-poor range they have. OMFG what is this? Is this like....was Josh trying to reinforce the "every stat matters" idea and felt Intelligence didn't do enough for Paladins, so he "fixed" it by making the range on these suck balls unless you capped Int? It's annoying as hell, is what this is. These modals are great, and they'd be even greater if they actually hit someone else besides my Fighter. My Fighter doesn't need extra DR, he's already tanky enough. My Fighter doesn't need extra accuracy and crit, he's not my damage dealer. Yknow what classes would love these? The ones I have positioned in the back because they have no defense but excellent offense. How to Fix it: Stop making Intelligence a "recommended for Paladin" skill altogether. Just boost the range on these things up and make Int's effect on the range be modest. As it stands now, Int is practically a requirement on Paladin for NO other reason whatsoever except to service these modals. You know what removing the demand for Int would also do? It'd give people spare points to play with and put towards Might or Con, which simultaneously would make Paladin hit harder or be tankier. As it stands now you've got Paladin so confused as to what it wants to be, it sucks and gets sub-par scores in everything. The most painful of all of this half-assedry is seeing intelligence needlessly be forced upon Paladin as a recommended stat, as if the stat demands for paladin weren't high enough already. And no, not all of these suck. The revive for example is quite nice, the later abilities (if you actually bother with a Paladin for that long) are all nice, and the sworn enemy one can be quite good, but those alone are not enough to justify bringing a Paladin along. Overall.... The problem with Paladin is that it's a "jack-of-all-trades, master of none." It can heal!! It can buff allies!! It can deal damage!! It can tank!! AND IT SUCKS BALLS AT ALL OF THOSE JOBS! For every ability you name that a Paladin has, chances are there's another class that does that job better. The idea was clearly to make Paladin provide a little of everything in some way, the problem being that it seems the developers were so conservative with the stats they provided the Paladin with, that Paladin simply cannot hold a candle to any of the others in any category. What is my motivation to use a Paladin as a support + backup tank for my Fighter instead of just using a Priest with my Fighter? What is my motivation to use my Paladin to help my Rogue with the damage dealing department instead of just using a Barbarian? As it stands now, no one is questioning if a Paladin is OP, because it's painfully obvious that all of Paladin's sub-par abilities combined can not compete with anyone else's focused efforts on 1-2 areas. Paladin is too ADHD and bipolar and hasn't justified that attitude. The fix? Just beef it up across the board. There's plenty of room for this. Not every above suggestion needs to be taken (all of them together might send the Paladin closer to OP territory), but there's no reason that all of these singular complaints and suggested tweaks cannot function in and of themselves. Thoughts?

Because balance is fun. Balance leads you to wanna explore and try different methods and different ways to beat the game and approach battles, because there's room for improvement. If you've got a method that works reliably (too reliably), then you use that method in your desire to be as effective and strong as possible. On the opposite end, if a method sucks balls, then it's not used and that's effectively "phantom content" in the sense that it's content that may as well not be there. The developers and the player both have interests in all content being as viable as possible because if it's not, then the game quickly becomes repetitive and lots of effort the devs put into various (inferior) methods and skills is all but moot. Without balance, motivation to explore new options? It tanks. Personally one of my motivators with trying new things is seeing which character could kick the other's ass in a fight based on their drastically different strengths and weaknesses. If one is a clear winner, then I lack motivation to bother exploring the characteristics of the second character since it's so clear who won. In this way, balance is a huge asset to replay value, which is again a cornerstone of RPG game design.

I have read several of these posts and I have come to the conclusion that I am incredibly bored.

I do have to ask, Obsidian.... I've read the Polygon article and..... One question is on my lips much like in Pillars itself, and that question....? That question is why, if you guys have read all the forum discussions about the topic, did you not just...yknow, talk to us? Why not talk to us? Why run off to Polygon? Assuming you're as informed as you claim to be, you must know Polygon is a big no-no for a huge chunk of the anti-censorship crowd. Why not talk to us instead? Why even bother with them? I've said this a dozen times: communication works wonders. When you say nothing, people think you've something to hide. When you don't clarify, people twist words to their own desires. When you don't speak with people, they're less likely to personalize you and more likely to demonize you. When you have a bunch of people who hate Polygon all complaining about the limerick being pulled....why the HELL do you go make your case via Polygon? Even if they approached you for the interview, wtf just make your case here and let them report on it by copy-pasting what you said. That, I would love to hear an answer to.

But I'm pretty sure most people are more than happy to stick to the disposition limits of those two classes, so negative rep is not a very realistic worry with that in mind.

Can you sacrifice all of them to the blood pool?

TF are you people getting EXP from? I've never passed level 9....

That's honestly pretty poor design, imo. It means it's impossible to get a Paladin or Priest at the top of their game without making them the player character....and since there's TWO classes like this, it's impossible to have a topped-out priest and paladin in the same file. I can imagine there'd be a lot of players who'd want crusader-style parties, and this might be another reason why fighters are curbstomping Paladins as tanks: because NPC Fighter vs. NPC Paladin is a much larger gap. Perhaps it'd be wise to tweak it so that NPC paladins and priests naturally increase their faith with levels? Or alternatively, make their faith reflect your own reputations?

I like Expert mode EXCEPT the AOE tooltip being disabled. It seems unequally harsh vs classes like Wizard and kinda discourages their use whereas classes like Rogue and Monk are perfectly fine. Even Cipher is fine ffs. The other things, such as inventory chest not being accessible outside of towns, no maimed status and no alerts as to what dialog is (which reputation) all make the game more challenging in ways that feel fun and make things more interesting and diverse. The AOEs lacking a little size tool however just seems needlessly annoying.

TF are people doing to get EXP? I've never passed level 9. :C

What happens to their faith? Is it just the default level and you can't really increase it? Cuz dat would suck. :C

This. Pallegina is his waifu and therefore she gets her own unique armor and race.

I looked it up: Doesn't seem worth it at all, tbh. To be honest they should tweak it to make it more tempting.

I tried it for what was essentially my first playthrough (first to go beyond Act II) and beat it. But for that playthrough, I did just the main quest and any sidequests that were located not far from "the main road" so to speak. I didn't touch Od Nua or bounties or anything like that. Now that I wanna go back through and experience content I've not experienced before though, it's like lolwtfbbq I have no idea when to do this stuff and it always screws me over.

I'm addicted to Trial of Iron. This is something that began ages ago with other games. I simply enjoy the extra tension and the extra sense of satisfaction when you complete a game without dying, with no reloads or do-overs neccesary. Sadly...this does not seem to translate into this kind of game well. There's two things about Pillars: 1) You cannot know how over-/under-prepared you are for a fight in advance. 2) You cannot run from a fight. (you can theoretically, but even accomplishing that in and of itself is a feat) Basic things like "stick to the road and don't wander off anywhere you haven't been told to go" can help....to a degree. But you're bound to go exploring Od Nua a bit further or do a quest just a bit early or get handed a quest you've never done before and have no idea how to size it up, and then ta-da: you're dead, with no realistic chance of winning that fight, let alone running away from it. I've probably lost three game files now to simply encountering fights I didn't anticipate and didn't realize I was not ready for. On the opposite end of things? Tough fights are fun. The fights you win with only two party members left standing are some of the most fun.....but when you're discouraged from walking off the safest path so strongly, you tend to play it safe and overshoot. Then you've got absolutely nothing to challenge you and it's painfully obvious you're too strong the moment the fight starts. That's...disappointing. My question is: wat do? I'm just a little frustrated cause I'm sitting here wishing this game offered some form of disengagement for when you come across a fight, your tank takes 2 hits and has 10% HP left, and it's crystal clear it's not winnable and you WANT to run, but the moment ANYONE in your body dies within range of an enemy and you lack means to lure enemies away (a summon), you're done. Are there any tips or tricks to circumvent this? Or is Trial of Iron playstyle just going to remain disappointing for me with this game?

Hehe the clip itself, no, cause it shows heavy cheesing for the sake of victory. That he could even make it to that battle however is what I find worthy of mention.

Between this and AngryJoe, you'd think people prefer having reviews screamed at them in an overly-enthusiastic tryhard tone or something.

I LOVE these guys! They always have the most apt and appropriate criticisms of the world around them, and dozens of times I've seen such videos and thought "WTF just let Taiwan handle journalism from now on." And today I've learned "Bubbles" in Taiwanese is "mo-ren-pao-pao."

This was attempted in Fallout 3 by Bethesda at demands for harder enemies. It's ****ing awful. It can often lead to little to no options on how to approach the situation. Certain Super Mutants in the game could two shot you because of this, meaning that your approach was always to cower behind a wall as your companions handled it, or you absolutely positively needed to aim for their gun and shoot it out of their hands ASAP. I would not recommend it, cause it's more frustrating than challenging to see all your stats you've acquired not matter and then have every character forced to use the same strategy.

Another snippet of evidence Monk is OP. Monk joins Cipher with classes responsible for Triple Crown Solo Victories:

Care to back up that claim at all or just gonna leave it at that? Do you care to back up yours? Fighter brings, what ... Engaging extra enemies? Worthless. Defender? Pretty good once you take the child talent, but monks and paladins both get similar tricks that can be used with Cautious Attack.. Constant Recovery? I'd rather just avoid taking damage. Vigorous Defense is pretty good, sure, as is Critical Defense, but they're kind of it. Unbending and Unbroken help a bad tank, I guess. Defenses are the most important part of tanking, and paladin has them in spades Fighters essentially get +10 to +20 (deflection, and I think the Fighter can even +30 that) to all defenses permanently and engage more enemies. This is WITHOUT the temporary Vigorous Defender, which can be used whenever +10-20 isn't enough to make everything jump up to +30 or +40. Aside from this, a Fighter can both Prone enemies (thereby stopping that enemy's damage output AND increasing the likelihood of teammates hitting the enemy) and "GET OVER HERE" enemies that are going for squishies, better serving the job as tank when it has superior control over what comes after it, which ties in well with it's higher engagement. Lastly, the Fighter is constantly able to heal back up, with high level fighters even being able to revive themselves should they somehow manage to die. Comparatively, a Paladin gains at best (aka this depends on dispositions and must be built up) 8 deflection and 16 of every other defense while housing no natural endurance regen ability. While the Paladin has plenty of other support abilities, only one of them (defense aura) is focused on doing any sort of tanking, and Lay Hands On is inferior healing (for tanking) than any self-healing that Fighter can do. How can you argue Paladin is the superior tank when the numbers are plain as day and it's clear the Fighter's are higher?

Care to back up that claim at all or just gonna leave it at that?

Let's call it pill. What could go wrong?

It's a country....or whatever the hell people in the Pillars universe have. It's a field or something where a bunch of Orlans and humans dance around naked, farming and ****.