Badmojo

Yes, this. Magical ability always seems to be equal across the genders in videogames. (In fact, if anything, there's more games that tend toward showing the caster classes as women rather than men (which is a trope in itself, but I digress).) And yet, I can't think of a game that examined what that shift in the balance in power would do to the gender politics of the world. Why should sexism still be a thing in the interests of "realism" if magic has equalized the sexes? If anything, I'd think that in this society Obsidian is crafting, it'd be more that those with weak/fragmented souls who would be discriminated against (men and women). --- As for the thread topic: tropes are not inherently bad. The problem with them is mostly due to inexperienced/poor writers using them without thinking. And I'm pretty sure we can count on the writers at Obsidian to keep these kinds of things in mind. And if not, well that's why we have topics like these: to show that people feel pretty strongly about things like this. having another disgriminated group is fine. Like full souls and partial, but they should not be the token group to replace the other discriminated groups. I hate games that do that, oh we are racist...against pointed eard elves, but all humans get along...ladeda. Yea right. Also, why should magic equilize anything unless EVERYBODY can use magic, then it would be like everybody carrying a gun. Only those who have magic would be "privilaged" the rest would be second class citizens, but even among the serfs, there would be sexism and racism.

A side tutorial that is skipable. I hate games that always force you to use the tutorial at the start, sure its ok the FIRST time you play, but if you want to play again it sucks the fun out.

No. ***** I'm sick and tired of these thread. Not just here but in every forum. I'm beginning to DESPISE Political Correctnes in all forms...simply because of posts like this. People who want to force it everyhwere and insist that if you're not spreading their belief/value system like a Jehovas witenss on speed, you are a very bad and immoral person. Peopel to whom everything is an issue and everything must be a platform for the mto express their dissatisfaction. I still recall the Resident Evil "contraversy" with black zombies (becasue it was set in africa) adn the uproar. And no one complained about the previous several games with white zombies... I'm sick of it. Sick of it beyond conventional words to express it. I don't care which race/sex/belief/whatever you think is under attack or offended or misrepreted. The next person to start preching PC to me and showing it in my face, will face a crusade against him so brural, that the God-Emperor and the Inquisiton will wince in horror and Khorne himself will loose his lust for blood. I am with you, EVERY web forum has this exact topic up and it just poisons the forums with everybody getting into a shouting match and driving people away. This falls more into politics than game design and really needs to be moved to way off topic forum. I guess the mods are off today.

I was not commenting on what you want for women in the game. Personally, I don't really want politically correct, whitewashed, tropified women in games, either. They're unrealistic as all hell, which makes me hate them worse than damsels in distress. At least damsels in distress don't go around waving the 'look at me! I'm totally not a gratification object or anything!' flag at it. I was commenting on how you said that RPGs are basically targeted towards men with few women playing them, which makes it fine to completely cater to men without addressing the concerns of women. i.e. women's concerns should not affect RPGs, which is men's entertainment. You suplemented your argument with the fact that romance novels are for women, and men are sexualized there as well, so 'to each their own'. Which is a fallacy. Romance novels are closer to porn for women, while the RPG argument is better served by comparisons to comic books and sport magazines. Traditionally geared for men, with no reason to do so beyond 'just because'. I have no wish to call you women-hating or anything of the sort. I did, however, wish to point out that by supporting the perpetuation of privileged viewpoints does nothing to serve your argument. Also, calling other statistics lies when your own statistics is conjecture also does not make your argument stronger. If this happens every time you make such an argument, perhaps you should REALLY rethink what your argument looks like to other people. Others in the thread not wanting 'empowered women in the game because setting' did just fine. In fact, your first post before this was not bad. Wording is your friend. Actually, I pointed out there is nothing wrong with targeting a particular group to cater too because there isn't. Trying to cater to everyone is a recipe for disaster, you simply cannot please everyone nor should you.

Yea, I am curious. Ok, 5% was probably low, but I still do not believe it is actually very high though, at least not the double digits.

I think the OP is more asking for female characters who actually have their own character and personality, not just another female trope, even one arguably seen as positive sexism. I do want a politically correct game, not in the sense that everyone gets along all happy and smiley - I agree, that would be boring - but in the sense that racism is highlighted as vile, and that female characters get equal screentime and agency within the world. I don't like the argument "it's a fantasy setting", it's rings too similar to "it's just a game." The problem is that games don't exist in a vacuum. Selling a fantasy setting where most of the female characters players meet work as prostitutes to an audience that is - let's face it - mostly male may seem like good marketing, but would only end up reinforcing the notion of women as sex objects. (I'd like to make it clear I'm not suggesting that this is what Obsidian plan on doing, I'm just using it as an example.) That said, I don't think Obsidian need Sarkeesian's help on this, they've shown themselves pretty good in this regard already. I donated to her kickstarter and look forward to seeing the results. I may not agree with everything she says, but oh man did it piss me off that people were saying she shouldn't be doing this. The reaction to the video - provoked or not, I choose to believe not - shows that someone really does need to highlight the gender politics of gaming. I don't want the argument that it is offending women. Its virtual people in a fantasy setting. We are on oposite spectrums then. The way I look at it is, do they cater to straight men? Yes, that is the majority of RPG gamers. I am sure you are about to pull the numberse that women gamers like to pull up showing that (esa? statistics) 47% of gamers are female. That is a flat lie, or more precisely, that covers ALL games, mobile, facebook, etc. Women who play hardcore old school RPGs or project eternity like games? I would be surprised if its even near 5%. I am also sure someone is about to use the argument that it needs to cater to women to bring them into games like this. Wrong, these games are already a nitch market, most women are not interested in this genre. It has been shown that there are PLENTY of games that cater to women, do I want them change and cater to men because I feel I am not targeted? Nope, to each their own. I like to use the bookstore example, there is books for everybody, there are genres that lean toware men and women readers. Take the romance section, that is designed for women obviously. The men are sexualized beyond belief, do I go to the authors and demand they change the writing to stop writing men as sex objects? DO I tell them that they should open up romance to men even though the vast majority of men are not interested in the genre? No, there are other books that cater to my taste. Romance caters to women because that is their biggest market, and there is nothing wrong with that. Most hardcore games like RPG's cater to mens power fantasy because that is there biggest market. I do apologize if my example isn't great. I explained this much better in another forum a while back, but I cannot find it. Still, I just want to play a believable game setting that isn't shoving political correctness down my throat. Its escapism, not a political advertisement. tl;dr, you're saying 'get out of the boys' entertainment, women'. Not to be rude, but perhaps you might want to rethink what you're really saying and apologizing for. Most women in my life hate romance books with a passion, btw. Perception goes a long way towards self-perpetuation. No and THIS is what pisses me off, any time someone tries to argue, you automatically get called women hating, sexist, rapist apologist..etc. Oh, you might not have said that, but that is what you were implying. Perhaps you should read what I wrote. I want games that do NOT try to pander to political correctness puritans. I want a game that is real and gritty. A lot of examples of great women in history in here, you know why they were great? Because they were RARE. Its because the background had sexism and racism. If eveybody got along and racism/sexism did not exist, they would not even be a foot note. I have no problem with there being strong famale characters, but they should be rare, I do not want the world to be unrealistic where there is no difference between men and women. In all of human history there has been sexism and racism, but we are supposed to believe that everybody put aside their differences like that, even in a fantasy setting? Then there should be no war, no problems then. bah, whatever. Lets make another boring political correct game where men and women are treated exactly the same, we will have some token race to hate instead of having true racism in our on species. Yea, this is what I paid for, the same politically correct social crap that comes out of EAware. Pushing the envelope, yea right.

I think the OP is more asking for female characters who actually have their own character and personality, not just another female trope, even one arguably seen as positive sexism. I do want a politically correct game, not in the sense that everyone gets along all happy and smiley - I agree, that would be boring - but in the sense that racism is highlighted as vile, and that female characters get equal screentime and agency within the world. I don't like the argument "it's a fantasy setting", it's rings too similar to "it's just a game." The problem is that games don't exist in a vacuum. Selling a fantasy setting where most of the female characters players meet work as prostitutes to an audience that is - let's face it - mostly male may seem like good marketing, but would only end up reinforcing the notion of women as sex objects. (I'd like to make it clear I'm not suggesting that this is what Obsidian plan on doing, I'm just using it as an example.) That said, I don't think Obsidian need Sarkeesian's help on this, they've shown themselves pretty good in this regard already. I donated to her kickstarter and look forward to seeing the results. I may not agree with everything she says, but oh man did it piss me off that people were saying she shouldn't be doing this. The reaction to the video - provoked or not, I choose to believe not - shows that someone really does need to highlight the gender politics of gaming. I don't want the argument that it is offending women. Its virtual people in a fantasy setting. We are on oposite spectrums then. The way I look at it is, do they cater to straight men? Yes, that is the majority of RPG gamers. I am sure you are about to pull the numberse that women gamers like to pull up showing that (esa? statistics) 47% of gamers are female. That is a flat lie, or more precisely, that covers ALL games, mobile, facebook, etc. Women who play hardcore old school RPGs or project eternity like games? I would be surprised if its even near 5%. I am also sure someone is about to use the argument that it needs to cater to women to bring them into games like this. Wrong, these games are already a nitch market, most women are not interested in this genre. It has been shown that there are PLENTY of games that cater to women, do I want them change and cater to men because I feel I am not targeted? Nope, to each their own. I like to use the bookstore example, there is books for everybody, there are genres that lean toware men and women readers. Take the romance section, that is designed for women obviously. The men are sexualized beyond belief, do I go to the authors and demand they change the writing to stop writing men as sex objects? DO I tell them that they should open up romance to men even though the vast majority of men are not interested in the genre? No, there are other books that cater to my taste. Romance caters to women because that is their biggest market, and there is nothing wrong with that. Most hardcore games like RPG's cater to mens power fantasy because that is there biggest market. I do apologize if my example isn't great. I explained this much better in another forum a while back, but I cannot find it. Still, I just want to play a believable game setting that isn't shoving political correctness down my throat. Its escapism, not a political advertisement.

Interesting choice of avatar there... Exactly what I was thinking

For the tears of weaping angels, not THIS topic again. I see this topic on EVERY-SINGLE-FORUM regardless if its games, movies, tv shows, books, comics..etc. To say I am sick to death of it is a vast understatment. It is a fantasy setting, I really do NOT want it to be politically correct game. You know the trope I am sick of seeing? The strong independent women who needs no man, that has been in most games. Seriously, the op mentions the princess needs help trope, but honeslty I can't think of many games outside of japan games that even use that trope. I would LOVE to see that trope used, I WANT to save a princess(hell, just have the princess AND the prince kidnapped, there you can save both). Is that wrong? NO, it isn't. I hate games where you are supposed to believe there is no sexism/racism going around and everyone gets along just spiffy. Those are boring and have been overdone to death because publishers do not want to offend anybody. I also hate games that try to introduce it, but with a non human token race to avoid offending everybody, please make this a mature game and that intruduces REAL mature issues.

I prefer no level caps, there is no reason you should not still be improving with time. I like the feeling of becoming a god machine near the end of games, I do not like artificial caps to keep your level low.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with your request, but I would just like to point out that games have been doing use-improves-skills systems for ages before Skyrim, and that there are good and bad ways to do it. The Elder Scrolls versions are far from the best. So, if you don't like the way the TES does something, talk about that, don't generalize to every game you've never played that has done it well. Well, I don't see why a sword user can use a sword all day without stoping, but mages run out of magic, Really, I cannot think of any game that has done it well, or perhaps I have avoided them. Can you give some examples. Still, this is about OLD school RPGs and while I think some things can be improved by modern implementations, I do not think autoleveling is one. We can argue realism vs non realism, but in the end I prefer old school skill points and using them the way I like without the system deciding it for me. I have also not seen anybody talk about how autolevel avoids important skills like speech because you just do not use it that much, but is very important to level up for non combat characters.

Time/urgency quests suck. It is just not fun to me. Hey, we have this awesome world for you to explore...oh wait, you have to do this quest or else you fail the mission. Ok, you rushed through, saved the town great, to bad you missed all that awesome side quests and cool places, but at least you saved the town. Oh, we have ANOTHER time quest, sure, you could chat and find out important information, or explore that cave, or just try of few other side quests... I mean, I am sure the plague will wait...oops, no it wont, you took too long trying to find the cure, that is hidden in some old journals, in the cave of death, on the other side of the map. What? you wanted stop for a minute and got on another quest to save an orphange, well too bad, you should have stayed on the path...oh, there is ANOTHER time quest.. *turns off computer and never plays again*

Of course it should go to the sword skill. Why should your magic skill benefit from you wielding a sword...? Collecting XP then distributing it however you want is dumb, overly simplistic, and unrealistic. As i've said in a previous thread, Bethesda haven't really implemented their skill systems well in their games (for a number of reasons), but they definitely have the right idea with skill progression actually being relevant and tied to the actions your character performs. this a bazillion times... I hate the notion that i kan kill a 100 kobolds with a dagger or staff and i can somehow "store away" that killing XP for my magic skills...how the hell does that make any sense? of course i'm only ok with growing cross class skills i use if there is no silly level cap that says "sorry chum, you seem to have maxed out you XP tank...too bad, maybe next time you will run away from those kobolds so you can kill them with magic like a good mage." Your argument goes at the window when you realize you can throw fireballs from your fingertips, tell me what is realistic about that. Its a game, I want to have control over how my character evolves, I know it *MIGHT* seem more realistic to have the game level up based on what you use, but it forces you down a particular path you do not want to go. Also, how do you level up skills that you do not use a lot like charisma? Speech? sneaking...etc. In skyrim, you had to do the horrible "grinding" of skills that you did not use just to level it up. like constantly sneaking, or throwing fireballs in the air, over, and over, and over again just to level it up. Autolevel was not created to make the game realistic, it was created for the dumb masses who do not play RPG's. Give me skill points to distribute how I want, do not make my choices for me.

um no, it clearly states that the majority does NOT want multiplayer, they do want modding tools, however language support is about even, so its debatable.

Just a request, please no horrible autoleveling of skills based on what skills you use. I have seen a few people suggest getting xp to level up the skills you use and I say please don't. The few games that have done this are horrible. Yes, it makes sense that the weapon/tools you use would level up and if you don't use it then it wouldn't. However, skyrim shows exactly why its a bad idea. A lot of times you do not use important skills that often, take speech, sneaking, or some of the few other skills. Also, you are often forced to use skills you don't want to because of various reasons. I am usually a mage player, but I often have to use a sword/wepon because my mana would run out, or my magic isn't powerful enough. So my XP would end up leveling my sword skill instead of my magic use, which is NOT what I want to level up. So, I think it would be best just to go old school, collect XP regardless of what you use, then distribute them how you wish.

I am heavily into the NO multiplayer because that will take away resources, time, and money that could be spent on the singleplayer experience. People who want it, have no idea how hard adding multiplayer to a game is. It is very time consuming and stressful, not only do they have to worry about the coding, they have to rewrite the game story to support multiplayer/coop, then more time/money/resources to test the code. So no, no multiplayer at all. As for modding tools, I said yes because mod tools can keep a game alive for a very long time, creating new and interesting mods. However, only if its feasable, I would rather they do the tools seperate, perhaps what bethesda does, release a game, then later release modding tools instead of trying to do both at once. As for language, I could go either way, although giving the ok for a fan translation group to do it, or perhaps after the game is released, they can put another kickstarter up for translating the game into other languages to see if there is demand for it.

Ran across this on ars http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/09/project-eternitys-all-star-effort-to-revive-the-classic-pc-rpg/ I like the sound of this, and possible no ESRB nanny censor? Oh sweet cthulhu yes!

See, the dark is boring is sending warning bells going off in me. How will it be a mature game if its not going to have dark themes (drugs/slavery/prostitution/murder/rape/violence/etc)? Oh, it will be doing it through humor? or just use token moments? I guess this means we will not get to be trully evil, just another sort of bad option. I hope the mature was NOT just a PR spin, Many of us will not be happy if we get a PG-13 game with an M rating slapped on like so many games today.

I want something original and new mostly, some favorites like vampires, zombies, skeletons..etc (although giving them a new spin would be nice) are ok. However, what I do not like is just making insects/creatures larger. Oh look a cave of giant spiders, I am so scared...snore. Something lovecrat inspired, or freaky. I like creatures that are not just mindless creatures, but are inteligent and can blend in with humanity to trick them before they eat/kill them. Like mermaids, the top half of beutiful women, might even have human legs on land, but have the power to drive men to make them swim to their deaths where the mermaids eat them, you also have ghouls who live near graves and eat the dead. I would also like to see creatures/monsters treated as more than simple things for the player to kill. I mean, sure, the ghoul is eating the dead, but does that make them evil? They cannot help what they are, and what if the monster has kids, its just trying to feed. It would be interesting to explore these situations instead of pointing to a monster and making it automatically evil and ok to kill.

I would like to see gods that defy mortal understanding. The lady of pain in PST is a good example. I really do not like gods like in greek/norse culture, which are just really powerful petty humans who like to toy with humanity, when it isn't raping humanity or having incesitious relationships with its own family members. I do want to see some forbidden gods that are worshiped in secret cults, maybe something lovecraft inspired. Since we have a god (playable?) as a race, I guess we are going with the gods are just powerful beings which still think like mortals...meh.

One thing that always annoys me in games is that if you do not have a key and the thief skill is not powerful enough, you cannot open a chest, nor break open a pathetic door. Yet you have a mage that can shoot lighting and fireballs from his fingertips, and musclebound warrior who eats ogres for breakfest, yet this door/chest cannot be open, cannot be scratched, like the gods themselves have decreed it so. So, I would like the option to bash open a chests/locks/doors instead of just having to pick them or find the key. Different doors/chests should have different difficulties, a simple wooden protection should be easily broken, however a steel door would take time, a bank like door, you need dynamite or it will take a very long time (but should still be doable). What should happen though, is in that when you bash, it should make a loud noise and draw any gaurds/enemies. Also, in the case of chests, there is the risk of it destrying some of the items in it. I cannot remember which game, but there was a game that allowed this and it worked really well. The items had health/damage score you had to bring down, and sometimes you had to attack it multiple times. It gave you a percentage of success without damaging the items in chest. Sometimes you made it, sometimes some of the items were destroyed. It was still more practical to use a lockpick or find the key, but I loved that you had the option.

Yea, I can understand if you try to sell it in the same town that someone would recognize the crest of the towns mayer on a wepon. However, a town over should not. I would not mind if shop owners had a suspision check, that they *suspect* the item is stolen, they will still take it, but at a lower value then its worth. However, if you have some speech skill you should be able to talk your way, if you are really good you should be able to convince the person it is several times its worth. One thing I will give it up for the elder scrolls, if you see it, you can go there, break in, and steal anything there. I would like this, If you see a building, you should be able to break in and steal anything as long as you are a high enough level (although the more valuable places will have gaurds/traps, etc). If there is a bank, you should be able to break in. If nobody sees you stealing then nobody should be able to put out a reward for who stole their stuff unless there is a witness. Day and night cycles are a must, it makes no sense for a thief to break in during the day. Also, there needs to be a sleep cycle for NPC's, I hate games where NPC's are awake all the time, it makes no sense. Oh, and I also think magic should be used besides mages, but customized for your character. I always wondered in other games why magic was not created for different classes. Why thieves(and assassins) did not learn magic to open locks, turn invisible, or (from a distance) teleport items from the pockets of NPC's into you hands. Just have a check to see if the skill passes, if it did not, the victim should have a high chance to catch the thief. Also, there should be a few thieves that try to still from you, like in fallout where the child thief steal money from you, but if you are quick you should catch them in the act, also you should be able to chases them down/track them.

I hate when you are a thief and you barely make any money because everybody (even the nobles/rich) have very little money/items worth anything to steal. I know the developers try to prevent the character from getting rich fast, but most of the time its just more profitable to go the goody goody quest route and get the reward which never sat right with me. The whole point of being a thief is so you can get money fast! Too many games just make it so they can open locked doors so they can do the quest faster, defeating the idea of what a THIEF is. If you go the path of the thief, while the poor is justifibly..well...poor. Shop owners, nobles should have a lot of loot and money, there is no reason to go to a nobles house and all they got is 25gold and a few semi decent wepons. They are nobles, they should have clothes that cost $1000 gold pieces (there nobles, they flaunt there money), they should have chests with bags of gold in the thousands hidden, valuable magic wepons/books...etc, Will it make the person get rich fast. yes, but that is the point of being a thief. I do agree that if you do something like rob a chest in front of someone they should probably attack you, but if you are sneaky behind their backs then they should not see you unless you fail a sneak skill. I also like that you can rob (sneak behind a person and take something) or steal during a dialog screen of anything they owned. Only the owners of the item you take should recognize their own stuff, but other places should not. It drove me nuts when I stole random stuff, then had to go to a special fence to sell stupid stuff like plates/goblets because everybody in the world knew that goblet and plate was stolen, magically. Yea, make thief skills fun.

It adds flavor so I said yes.

Ah, here is something I think we all have experienced, you found some random object, sell it and forget about it, later you have a quest for that exact same object, then you have to run all the way back and buy it back or you forgot where you even sold/put it! I know this might break imersion a bit, but I think once you get a quest item, even if you are not aware of it, you cannot get rid of it, it should probably go into a special section in your inventory and weigh nothing. At least that is what I think, what does everyone else think?