Althernai

You have to be level 15 or so before you can get the new classes.

I partially agree. It was highly annoying to have no idea what your character is talking about because you didn't talk to one of the NPCs about the subject. However, consider this: how else could you do this? They wanted to do a character with a history. How else would you do this without having the player start at a relatively high level and without having the player read a biography before the beginning of the game? Determining the past with dialogue options is actually one of the better ideas I can think of. The problem is that this is not done very well in TSL. You simply don't get large portions of the game's story unless you have high Influence with your companions. And here is the really bad part: if you roleplay certain kinds of characters (e.g. a fully LS Jedi) and you roleplay them without metagaming for Influence, you will miss out on a lot. There is no option to be persuasive while sticking to your ideals; you have to say what the characters want to hear (even if it contradicts your character's personality) or you might not know what's going on. (Aside: Personally, I am growing very, very tired of "I have a dark past, but you don't know that" and, more specifically, "In the past, thousands have died due to my actions, but you don't know that either." PS:T, KotOR, TSL... enough is enough. Think of something new.) You answer your own complaint. That said, let's look at them individually: You have no problem with Kreia, Visas or G0-T0. Handmaiden joins you because Atris orders her to and you have the opportunity to change her mind. I haven't played with a female character, but I get the impression that the Disciple is serving the Republic and he joins you to observe. Also, both could be attracted to the protagonist. Mira/Hanharr... I agree with you. I have no idea why they join. HK-47 and T3-M3 just come with the ship. Bao-Dur is quite loyal to you because of the past. He also has very little to do when you meet. Mandalore... he makes sense for the missions that you have to take him on, but not for the rest of the time. Perhaps he has learned from experience that where there is a Jedi on a quest, there is some serious combat and he wants to take part? Atton: See the posts above. You interpreted him very differently from most people. And that is the real problem. If they had come up with a good ending, you would have gotten a very different reception here had you come with your first two points. The ending is the last part people see and often the reaction at the ending is what remains with the audience. I agree with you here. The ending was simply not of the same quality as the rest of the game. The cut bits and pieces... well, for one thing it is not absolutely clear what they intended and for another, perhaps there was more that simply wasn't included. Also, it might be that they realized killing everyone off was not the best of ideas. A lot is missing from this game and while it is not bad, it is far from being great. Too bad... it had potential.

They could always migrate to the NWN2 boards. Though the irony would be very great, I really don't want these boards to close. There should be a company forum for story-driven RPGs other than Bio's.

This is what seems to be confusing you. I am not sure if this was intentional or not (and perhaps this deserves its own thread), but there are no Jedi in KotOR2 except those created by the actions of the player. They just aren't there. Atris, Vrook, Kavar and that other guy are all former members of the Jedi Council, but if you define Jedi based on Yoda, Obi-wan Kenobi and the like, they just aren't Jedi anymore. Don't expect them to act like Jedi and don't follow their example if you want a Light Side character.

Before anything else, I'd like to say that I think your post is unique. It is certainly the only one of its kind that I've ever seen. I've seen people quote themselves -- typically for emphasis or when people don't seem to get it. However, this is the first time I've seen someone quoting themselves in the same post where the original statement is found. Very weird. About the actual post, I think you exaggerate somewhat. Not that female romances are awesome or detailed, but the male ones are pretty much the same. I don't recall the female version of the game very well (I watched my friend play rather than going through it myself), but there was definitely some flirting with Atton. Also, you complain about the Disciple, but Visas has a much bigger problem -- I never could understand where her "My life for yours" attitude comes from. She starts with this right after I first fight her, so I have no idea what I've done to warrant it. Male or female, this game requires you to create most of each romance in your imagination.

I don't think so. Bioware's developers have constantly said that they gave up the sequels to both NWN and KotOR to work on their own, original games. Meaning, Dragon Age, Jade Empire and whatever else they are up to. They are indeed giving up a lot of money by not doing sequels to games of the year, but they also stand to gain quite a bit because they no longer have to pay for licenses to things like D&D and Star Wars. It's a major gamble, but nothing ventured, nothing gained, right? It depends on your definition of hardcore, but KotOR1&2 are actually much further from hardcore than any previous Bioware game. The combat is very easy in both, there are fewer classes and in general fewer things to worry about. They are a mix between console and PC games, which to some is the exact opposite of hardcore. I doubt Bioware passed up on KotOR2 due to reputation concerns.

At the time you were playing, probably. But how about at the time you made this post?

I think you missed a part of the plot here. Talk to Kreia after fighting Handmaiden. To the Echani, such fighting is a courtship ritual. Both men and women take part and they both wear very little. The developers chose to include an Echani female rather than an Echani male. If they had done the opposite, the female Exile would be fighting in underwear. In either case, there is one half-dressed male and one half-dressed female per fight. I don't see any problems here. Or do you believe that including scenes where a male and a female are only dressed in underwear is gender discrimination in and of itself?

Lower HP. All other things being equal, an 18th level Consular has 72 HP fewer than a Guardian and 36 HP fewer than a Sentinel.

They didn't save anything except maybe some disk space. It's completely and utterly pointless to spend money on making a high quality version of the music and then only putting a low quality one in the final product. Personally, I don't consciously notice the difference between two versions unless I listen to one and then to the other. I also tend to ignore both graphics and music if everything else is engrossing enough. However, just because it is not consciously noted doesn't mean it has no effect on the experience. That said, MONO!? What gives?

Unless I learn that they've implemented the worst suggestions of D&D "rules" people or otherwise somehow horribly mangled the game, I'll probably buy NWN2. With everything else, I'll wait for reviews. Blaming the publisher is not always taken well by the fans, but it is always taken badly by the publisher. Do you really want to work with a company whose employees blame you when something goes wrong? Insulting publishers is borderline suicidal behavior for small developers. Don't expect them to do this. Likewise, don't expect them to officially change the ending. Their programmers are probably working on something else now and they aren't going to shift resources to things they aren't paid for. Also, it isn't clear how such a change would get to the X-Box. This reminds me of something. When BG2:ToB was published, there were also some people who thought the ending could use some improvement (though the complaints weren't anything near the magnitude you see here). So one of Bioware's designers and some fans made a mod that added various details, made sure that some plot related events actually happen and changed the ending to make it more challenging and added some roleplaying options to it. It wasn't official, but it was made by a creator of the original and, IMHO, was a lot more fun. I don't think such a thing will happen (either here or ever again in general), but it would be awesome if it did.

True, but also extremely annoying and in my view an oversight in the dialogue. I go to Bao Dur and as him if I can build a lightsaber; he tells me I need a lens. No problem -- I go to the workbench and make myself a lens. Go back to Bao Dur -- same reply. They could have at least said that you cannot make the kind of lens you need.

The limitation on the paladin is that he is sworn to be LG. Evil characters have more options; an evil character can use the means of a good character if it is the most convenient method that leads to their ends. It doesn't go the other way though -- a good character cannot use evil means and remain good. Chaotic is not quite as clear cut, but chaotic characters can still act in lawful ways when it suits them (they aren't madmen). LG is the most restricted of the alignments because you can't have a lawful character that acts chaotic when it is necessary or a good character that does evil things when it is convenient. The difference between the LG paladin and the LG mage is that the mage still has more options. He isn't required to be LG, that's just the way he is. If there is a situation in which he desperately needs to do something chaotic or evil, he can do it -- all that will happen is that it will weigh on his conscience. On the other hand, the paladin cannot do it without breaking an oath and, depending on how significant the action is, possibly losing his ability to be a paladin.

What do you care though? The patches are free just like they always were. How is it relevant that they are doing it to sell some junk that you are not obliged to buy?

That's not Atari's doing; it's Bioware's. Bioware has generally been great about supporting their games. Now, they aren't doing this for NWN out of the goodness of their hearts; for quite some time now (though perhaps not from the beginning), the purpose behind their Live Team (the people who do all of the patches and such) has been to set up and then sell their premium modules. Nevertheless, the initiative in creating the Live Team and continued support of NWN for so long was Bioware's and not Atari's. It isn't wise to judge a publisher by a single example.

My apologies. That sentence should have read: "There are good mana systems and bad mana systems. D&D had (IMO) of course, one of the worst magic systems." (Meaning, despite not being mana-based -- I wrote 'mana' where I meant 'magic'.) I'll edit the original post for clarity.

There was a great Bioware post about support for PWs and what it means. For example, they don't care if something they implement in a patch breaks a PW or not. They don't care if it makes PWs less stable. They won't go out of their way to fix PWs and they don't QA the game with any PWs in mind. Based on it, I think NWN2 will not support PWs -- just like NWN does not support PWs. If you can buiild it, good for you. If not, tough luck -- Bioware will not help you and I strongly suspect Obsidian will not either (though they may try to make life better for PWs in general). It is way too early to say if PWs can be made with DA. Mana based system means nothing in and of itself. There are good mana based systems and bad mana based systems. D&D had (IMO, of course) one of the worst magic systems I can think of (I mean BG2 Mages and NWN Wizards); if it wasn't for Sorcerers I would have stopped playing arcane casters in both NWN and BG2 a long time ago. Again, wait and see what Bioware does with DA. NWN2... I don't know. It somehow doesn't sound appealing to me. If I heard correctly, it does the exact opposite of what BG2 did for BG1 level-wise; correct me if I am wrong, but IIRC NWN2 will bring the level cap back down to 20. BG2 expanded on BG1; you got to use new combat abilities and fight different monsters. Sure, NWN2 will have a slightly different ruleset, but with the original being based on D&D 3.0 and the sequel on D&D 3.5, how different can they be? To be honest, what really annoys me is the fact that in all likelyhood (if the game does well), they will make an expansion that raises the level cap again. I am willing to buy sequels and expansions to sequels, but not sequels that do not include considerably more content than the original. BTW, I don't think DA and NWN2 will be competing with each other. DA will most likely be released quite a while after NWN2 -- but that is just my guess based on currently available data. EDIT: Magic, not mana for D&D system.

Thanks. Exactly the answer I least wanted to hear, but thank you for telling me.

If what you say here is true, then this is a lot worse than PS:T. The latter was an issue with philosophy behind games, this is just bad.

PS:T was a lot longer than 30 hours -- unless you just went thorugh the 'critical path', it was definitely at least 60. If you try to explore every corner, you'll have something closer to 80. They just don't make games that long any more -- the omnipresent voice acting alone would make it unprofitable. That was my point about KotOR II and PS:T: while the ending(s) in PS:T left me with the hollow feelings of "What the heck was all this for?" and "I can't believe he did that!", I loved the other 75+ hours the game offered, loved the characters (and most of those I didn't love were really fun to hate) and so on and so forth. On the other hand, if KotOR II offers the same kind of ending, but only 30 hours of gameplay, the ending counts a lot more. More about the ending of PS:T -- I agree that the ending fit the story quite well; I applaud the well-written story and realize that to have a happy ending would have made the story worse. However, a computer game is inherently a game and a game where all actions lead to eternal damnation, oblivion, insanity and other such things just isn't satisfying (to me). Not having a happy ending is one thing, not having a hopeful ending is quite another. There was some license for imagining hope in the ending of PS:T (if you looked closely at the rules of the setting presented by the various philosopers and at what happened to Curst), but it requires quite an imagination...

Similar, but not identical to PS:T. Hmm... without spoilers, can anyone compare the feelings you got to the ending in PS:T rather than in KotOR? If the ending evokes feelings similar to PS:T, but the game is only thirtyish hours long... I'm not sure if I want to buy this. In the future, you should probably either post in spoiler format or contact people with PM. Spoiler format goes like this: [spoiler]This is not really a spoiler, but you can insert yours here.[/spoiler] and if you do it without using 'code', it looks like this (highlight to read): That way you don't have to edit your posts and people don't have to stumble on spoilers unknowingly.

Not necessarily, but in this case, quite a few of the posts actually are. A lot of people have trouble understanding that to the reviewers of most gaming sites, a considerable portion of the game is its engine; the technical components -- what interactions are possible in the game; how do they look, how well they run and how do they sound. From all I have seen, KotOR2's engine is very similar to that of KotOR1 with few improvents in either performance or graphics. Now, this might not be important to you (it isn't important to me as long as the thing has reasonably few bugs), but it's well established that the graphics and performance are worth quite a bit of a game's 'score'. If the graphics and engine are not new, then the game will not be rated as highly as the original (unless of course it is truly awesome and improves on the original by a lot in a number of different ways -- see BG2 for a good example of this). Evidently, the reviewers feel that TSL is on a level with KotOR, improving on the original by a bit, but not enough to make up for the necessarily dated graphics. As long as people read the reviews rather than just look at the scores, they should be fine -- after all, if the game is better than KotOR in all the things that KotOR did well, will anyone really care that the graphics are a year old?

This is one of these things that makes me glad I live with some roommates now. I'm fairly certain one of them will buy it for his X-Box and we generally play these games in parallel (I've got dibs on the LS male Consular type). Then, in February, I'll buy the PC version and play with the extra content (if there is no extra content or the game isn't within the more reasonable of my expectations, then I guess I'll have saved myself $50).

Problem is, this is what they want us to prove (with scientific reports). It's like having to prove 1+1=2.. Some common knowledge is so widely accepted it's difficult to find the research behind it. Of course, that makes it so much easier to attack which seems to suit those who oppose GM-food perfectly.. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not sure what there is to prove. You don't become more chicken-like by eating chicken nor more like a cornstalk by eating corn. It is obvious simply from the sheer variety of diets around the world. Or are they referring to some other phenomenon?

No, it is not. Even if you buy the theory that humans pick mates the same way animals do (i.e. unconsciously selecting the best available specimen to mix genes with) -- and this is highly debatable -- it is still not the same. When such an unconscious choice is made, the decision rests on the sum total of all genetic factors. Nothing specific is involved; people don't go around selecting mates with thoughts like "I'm a fast runner; she is a fast runner. Therefore, our children are likely to be fast runners and this is makes her a good candidate." We may (unconsciously) aim for the best overall set of traits, but not for any particular one. With selective breeding on the other hand (what we have done for centuries), we do exactly the above selection of particular traits. If you want a fast greyhound or horse, you take two that are fast and have them mate. Repeat several hundred times using offspring, and you have some really fast animals. Their other genes may not be optimized at all (they might have some diseases or something of the sort), but at least they are fast. You can then take the fast horses and select the strongest of them and breed them for strength. The result may or may not be as fast as before, but they will also be strong. Similarly, eaten birds can be bred for size and so on. In each case, we are aiming to get a particular characteristic rather than the overall set -- often at the expense of the overall set.