BruceVC

Valid point, I suppose that's the best way to address this decision by the Ugandan government.

It takes a great deal of self-righteousness and/or hubris to call for sanctions on any nation over anything. 'Aid' from the west is generally really just bribes and funding of the west's agenda's and interests. Uganda would do well if it could to not accept any outside 'aid', just about any nation would. Of course leaders of such nations would likely find themselves facing opposition funded by the west if such opposition could be found, which it usually can. Africa fails to achieve it's true potential because outside interests keep it in the dark ages to further their own interests, in particular European interests, though Asia and the U.S. also have their hands dirty there. Hubris. Self-righteousness. Wow those are big words to describe something that is regularly implemented against countries when they make decisions that are unacceptable to many countries in the world. Uganda already gets aid, 20 % of its budget is outside aid, and Uganda as every country does is reliant on international investment in order to grow there economy. And when you say "because outside interests keep it in the dark ages to further their own interests" you sound like Robert Mugabe trying to justify why his economic polices have destroyed the Zimbabwean economy. You don't know much about how certain countries in Africa operate or how there governments manage there economies do you?

That's a good link, its a little frustrating but I understand what the author is getting at. He says if the West wants to enforce punitive economic measures on Uganda there will be a violent backlash against the LBGT community as they will get blamed. That does makes sense so he wants the current Western corporations invested in Uganda to educate the Ugandan people that the homosexuality always existed in Uganda and wasn't something that the West brought into the country with there liberal lifestyle choices. Okay but I question if this will make any difference as once people are fixated on hating a particular minority group its takes a paradigm shift to change it. But end of the day I have to support what's best for the LBGT community in Uganda, so as much as it pains me to accept it maybe there should no sanctions or measures against Uganda from the West

Let us know what you think

I often read your updates on games which are objective and detailed so if you play the Demo that would suffice for some relevant insight into this KS

It looks good but I'll wait for others, like Keyrock or Indira, who have a better knowledge of all things game related to comment before I decide to pledge

I also doubt that Monte was born on D-Day. Shocking, isn't it? How could I possibly trust anything he says anymore oh wait it's a joke. What I don't understand about the promance point of view here is this: Josh said that the PoE team had come to the conclusion that they didn't think they could do romances up to the standard they demand of themselves. So why don't the promancers trust the devs' own assessment of their abilities and resources? Hah! I'm not north american nor european, so D-Day isn't nearly as significant to me, hence why I didn't notice the date. The drunk part does ring true, though . Don't take Monte too seriously, his good outweighs his bad. I know the first time you experience his posting style it can be a little frustrating( I felt the same ) but if you stay active on the forums you'll see he can very articulate and humorous

I see nothing wrong with setting up such a trap using others words Bruce it's a nice tactic in any good argument if successful, however it's not that I dismiss the importance of words but that I see them as too important to constrain in any way, that is why I hold free speech and dialogue to be so important. They should not be held back by such things as offensiveness or hurtfulness, which are entirely subjective and often extremely wrong. Alright, I can't lie... I'm feeling guilty I did try to trap you but it failed. But if it had succeeded it would have been a grand moment

Funny enough South Africa has just granted a temporary work visa to a prominent Ugandan gay doctor who is also a gay activist so its already happening for skilled professionals, I just feel sorry for the unskilled gay Ugandans http://mg.co.za/article/2014-02-20-ugandan-activist-granted-sa-work-permit/

You right, I didn't mean to suggest full sanctions as that won't happen. But Obama has said this will sour relations and that's never a good thing for any African country. But Uganda has made its bed, now they need to lie in it. Oh and the Ugandan president is full of it

It is broadly supported. But what has that got to do with morality of putting people in jail for consensual sex? In Rwanda the majority of people also supported the genocide and in Cambodia the Khmer Rouge also had popular support. Okay, a bit of a leap to go from a law jailing people for being homosexual to two genocides. If it's widely supported, then beating them with the stick might not help reverse their decision, sadly. Never underestimate the impact of sanctions, it played a major part in ending Apartheid

Please re-read Animal Farm. The formerly oppressed are entirely capable of turning to oppression. And now, of course, we have Putin the new world champion of 'Traditional Values.' stalking the world stage like a 'B' Movie villain, giving credence to the ignorant. Good point around Animal Farm and another thing that really frustrates me is some of these African countries have these corrupt governments that squander the resources and the majority of people live in extreme poverty. But the blame for there situation often falls on Western countries and Colonialism. And yet when they get the chance to focus on economic reform what do they do...they pass a law to discriminate against a minority group. And because the average citizen of the country is ignorant and the AU is utterly impotent they get away with it

Nonek thanks for responding to all my questions, I can appreciate the fact that it must have been a little annoying but I sometimes think its a better way to get to a final point so you understand the context of where someone is coming from. In South Africa there is a racist word to describe black people that begins with the letter "K" ( I don't need to say the word). This word is completely unacceptable to use and people in the public limelight who have used the word have been fired, that's how serious it is. This word is derogatory and very offensive and hurtful to black people and others as it represents the days of Apartheid where black people were marginalised and discriminated against. But its just a word and yet that single word symbolizes something much more. Do you think the millions of black people in South Africa need to have thicker skin around what this word represents for them? So the usage of that word is never acceptable under any circumstances because of our history. Now you have admitted that there are certain words on certain forums that should not be used and I have given you an example of another word that should never be used. Its that same logic that highlights the point that just because its the Internet and a forum discussion it doesn't mean that there should be no responsibility on people to not use those words or say certain things. Its starts with you and how you say things and it starts with you and what you are prepared to accept when you engage in discussion On RPGCodex around the post that "PoE wouldn' have Romance " I read some of the comments. Some people made comments like " well if they have Romance then I want the option to be able to rape someone". Of course they were being sarcastic but the fact that they are so indifferent about a serious problem that faces society tells me that some of the members really think that this type of humour is acceptable and the worst part of it is that the website and the moderators seem fine with this type of debate All I ask is that people have some empathy around bigotry and discrimination. Its real and does upset and impact thousand of people on a daily basis. And we also need to realize that there are certain boundaries that on public forum that we should never cross. Even if you feel if doesn't effect you personally that doesn't mean it isn't a serious issue for others Yes Bruce i'm quite aware of what you were doing and that is why I avoided your little trap with ease, and as I said I don't believe in censoring words whether they cause offence or not for adults, and I would say that studying the insult you refer to and its original use by Islamic slave traders is worthy of discussion and further education. Whether the tribes who have come to now inhabit the South African region are insulted by this appelation or not is hardly a matter worthy of bringing up in the etymology of the word, it exists, it was used and trying to lie and erase something from history is shameful and wrong headed, those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. As I have said discussion for adults should not be blinkered by political correct and fashionable lies, enforced by those who see it as a professional duty to take offence on the net, have a self righteous attitude that their feelings are important and they know what is right and wrong and wish to enforce that on others. These people who actively search for topics to take offence on, yet do not like to examine their own work and actions, should grow thicker skins and not place such importance on the words of strangers from half a world away. If the matter is that important and they are so touchy on it simply do not place it in the public sphere, avoid places where it is openly discussed and seek professional counselling rather than browsing the net. To try and wallow in offence and self rigtheous posturing is the action of a needy child seeking attention and not worthy of a grown up, and keeping private matters private is not wrong or censorious. Rough jokes and inconsiderate humour are just that, abuse and threats are what they are and the two things are different, should the Life of Brian not have been made because the Church of England were offended? Should Lady Chatterley's Lover never have been written or read because of offence taken by those who disliked and hated this modern medium and this supposed filth? Should the Bible never have been translated into English because that is not a holy language? The answer is no to all of the above and many more, and those who try and stifle free speech... well let's just say that I wouldn't like to live in the backwards, humourless and ever so dull world they live in. I take offence at their wish to censor everything, even a few gentlemen sharing some rough politically incorrect jokes and ribbing when under the influence of a few pints. However I would not say that they should be censored, or that everybody should listen to my oh so important feelings on this, because i'm not special, i'm not right and my offence means nothing and certainly should not be enforced on other people. Addendum: I do not partake in abuse or even swear so the implication that i'm trying to make myself feel good about my words and actions is false. I simply do not believe in constraining free speech for adults, whether it is for self pity, self righteousness or somebody somewhere drawing offence from any word that is spoken. If you do constrain them and have a prefect method of policing this for all seven billion people at all times then they are not adults, they are children and slaves who cannot speak their minds. We have little enough freedom as it is, I cannot understand this ill thought out desire to further decrease it. Interesting post, I'm surprised you used the word "trap". I prefer to say I spent time understanding your perspective and then tried to present you with an alternative view, but if you feel I tried to trap you that's fine In South Africa most people don't know the original meaning of the word and that's irrelevant as all that matters is what the word means now, what it represents and how it was used during apartheid. But you don't think words can symbolize anything, you don't think words can cause offense or be hurtful . You and I are diametrically opposed to each other in this debate and that's how it will continue to be and that's fine. We all have our own opinions

It is broadly supported. But what has that got to do with morality of putting people in jail for consensual sex? In Rwanda the majority of people also supported the genocide and in Cambodia the Khmer Rouge also had popular support.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/24/world/africa/uganda-anti-gay-bill/index.html What can I say...what can I say. Its appalling, shocking and unacceptable but the Ugandan president has signed the bill into law. The West should immediately cut any and all aid to Uganda. Apart from the obvious issues I have with this legislation there is the following The member states of the African Union are suppose to adhere to the African Charter of Human rights which says you can't discriminate against people around points like there sexual orientation. So this is yet another example of the failure of the AU to pressure countries to stick to the manifesto of the AU that they agreed to. No wonder Africa keeps failing to achieve its true potential I am always amazed that countries that suffered under colonialism and racism are keen to pass laws that allow them to discriminate against other minority groups, my how we forget our past. Hypocrisy anyone ? Well done Uganda for this step into anachronism

Unfortunately, you know nothing. It's a common trait of humans (especially on the internet) to classify people and put them into neat little boxes for their convenience. We construct mental images of persons - or to be more precise, we construct mental images of an average representative of X (republican, gay, black, religious person, feminist, gay activist, whatever) and use many such pieces to construct an image of a persona. The problem is that what is "offensive" can be very well subjective, and that people tend to overreact. I've seen people overreact again and again, on both sides. Heck, on EVERY side of every possible debate. I've seen horrible statements go unchallenged. I've seen people jumping on innocent posters. Of course, being respectful is a must, but some points and opinions really can't be expressed without hurting someones feelings. I apologize if I have made an assumption around your view on gay rights. What do you think about the rise of homophobia in Russia and laws that legislate it?

oc Right. I'm not so convinced either way. "Games turn kids into killers" is probably the most extreme example you can make, but there are other scenarios we could consider. For instance, the rise of "happy slapping" and other phenomena that transcend the barriers of the 'nets and affect people's physical lives. This is not the same as suggesting that 'Codex is a nest of rapists because they systematically trivialize rape, but it's difficult to establish whether a certain mindset becoming the norm online can affect individuals' mindsets when they log off. How good are we really at separating our online and RL personas? Social pressure is essential at curbing antisocial (oh, wow, I went there) conducts, but with the internet you have a space where standard social norms no longer apply and may or may not be substituted by something entirely different depending on the community you are looking at. You raised an excellent point and that is " it's difficult to establish whether a certain mindset becoming the norm online can affect individuals' mindsets when they when they log off. How good are we really at separating our online and RL personas" I was going to say something similar but I didn't feel like having to respond to the deluge of responses I knew I would get along the lines of "are you saying I'm a rapist now because I think rape jokes are funny" Personally I feel that there are people that revel in misogyny, racism, homophobia and sexism. And in RL they probably act on those traits in certain ways. So my view is why give them a platform where they can influence others or be dismissive of these social problems. So my point once again is you can make a controversial point but you need to choose your words.

Problem is, it's you determining what is hurtful and offensive. Malc what always makes the job of raising issues of social justice easier is knowing I have the support of people like you on my side, it just helps knowing we share a similar sentiment Please read my post I made about offensive words in South Africa, I'm not the one saying these words and statements are offensive. These words and statements are unquestionably offensive to almost every person who the bigotry is directed at

How is forbiding the usage of words not censorship? That's a very good question and even though it seems like I'm contradicting myself I'm not. I'll explain why I know that you and people like Cultist don't care much about gay rights. We have discussed this before. Even though I disagree with your opinion I respect your right to have a different opinion. But if during those debates you had made comments around the treatment of gays in Russia like " f***g f****ots they must round them all up and send to a concentration camp" my response and I guarantee the response from the Moderators would be very different. So you don't have to censor someone's controversial or personal opinion as long as the person positions there argument in a way that is not derogatory or offensive

This bit is saying those of us ('these people' he says, haughtily) who don't like CRPG romances are the ones with the problem. LOL. Which is why he can't handle the truth. I've never known you to be so sensitive before and you are firmly in the anti-romance camp so doesn't that make you "these people " And as far as the "don't like CRPG romances are the ones with the problem" ...what about the relevancy of the maxim " if the cap fits..." and all that ....

Meh. "Social justice" and raised awareness. Not seeing much of it. More like forums rune like camps lead by paranoid dogmatics that hand out harsh punishment for any percieved or hypothetical infraction. Internet used to be a place of ultimate freedom of speech (and yes, that includes people saying things you'd absolutely hate). It's less so these days. Hardly an improvement. People keep misunderstanding my point, I have no issue with people disagreeing with me or saying things I hate. I have an issue with comments that are hurtful and offensive. I don't suggest we stifle debate in any regards, I suggest we look at the choice of words we use. I can't see how this is censorship in any way?

It seems the peak of your ability to argue is to post a Jack Nicholson image and claim you're right. Quite sad, really, because 1: I never wrote there would be no meaningful interactions with NPCs; Obsidian is ditching one type of meaningful interaction, incidentally one that many consider relevant. and 2: I never used the argument no romance=combat simulator, I just argued that removing romances does no good to the idea that CRPGs are supposed to be more than combat simulators (it doesn't, unless you somehow believe romancing is a part of combat, a possibility I can't dismiss given you lacking reply). Maybe in your world of Jack Nicholson images what you posted could pass as showing adequate reading comprehension, but it instead suggests you didn't even bother to read my post (maybe because it has more than 140 characters) or you have a serious cognitive disability. He's right Monte, he didn't say the things you are accusing him of. Did you read his post ?

I don't consider Gothic an action RPG? Its the same as Elder Scroll games and Risen...what are those? cRPG ?

Meh. Why? It's harmless. People get worked up over nothing. you funny Trashman I encourage you read all my comments as I am not prepared to explain again IMO why some Trolling needs to be condemned and is in fact offensive and hurtful

Nah, I don't troll. Others may think I do, but from my perspective no. But while I can honestly say that I've never said anything solely to get a negative or emotive reaction I equally am not overly concerned about saying things that I know will offend people or that people won't like. Because I know that if I were overly concerned I'd never write or say anything of any substance. If I don't think it's worth it I'll usually bite my tongue though, because it, uh, isn't worth it. I don't think you Troll and in fact you normally explain your view in detail if its a topic you are interested in debating.