BruceVC

Nah, I don't troll. Others may think I do, but from my perspective no. But while I can honestly say that I've never said anything solely to get a negative or emotive reaction I equally am not overly concerned about saying things that I know will offend people or that people won't like. Because I know that if I were overly concerned I'd never write or say anything of any substance. If I don't think it's worth it I'll usually bite my tongue though, because it, uh, isn't worth it. I don't think you Troll and in fact you normally explain your view in detail if its a topic you are interested in debating.

Oh Hassat I'm so proud of you, you have finally come to conclusion that we need to rate IE games on there Romance implementations. If we continue to see a concerted effort on your part to support Romance you'll be welcomed to promancers camp. But due to the intransigence of your past views around Romance we will need to continue to see you supporting the importance of Romance or you'll be back in anti-romance camp

Good point. I see what you are saying. If that's true its also fine

That's an awful lot of times you felt you needed to affirm us that you are absolutely, completely, utterly impartial and objective in this debate In fact I would that argue that someone who insists he is being unquestionably objective so much doesn't have the intention of being truly objective uh no. You'd rather take the stance that all trolls are made by horrible people? That you don't consider the possibility that there are good trolls? I don't think that's a good quality to have. Come now Hiro, I have conceded that there is such a thing as a good Troll. They are rare but I can't say with absolute conviction "there is no such thing as a good Troll" based on the observations from you and others But you have to admit that aluminium's post was funny

80% sure I've had several actual romances like this in real life. Join the club

I think that is Bruce's idea of a perfect romance? that made me laugh, good one If Vivienne is not a Romance option I'll be more disappointed than I was with when the decision was made by Obsidian to not have Romance in PoE but I'm confidant that DA:I will still be a very entertaining RPG and one I'll still support

That's an awful lot of times you felt you needed to affirm us that you are absolutely, completely, utterly impartial and objective in this debate In fact I would that argue that someone who insists he is being unquestionably objective so much doesn't have the intention of being truly objective

mmmm...you've raised some good points and they make sense on certain levels. The BG2 type of Romance might not be applicable in modern RPG

I already know that DA:I is going to be an excellent game because there is going to be a character like Vivienne in it

I don't see how I'm being defensive about the characterisation of what a Troll means. And I'm certainly not feeling guilty about something. I'm simply taking an objective view of what a troll is and can do. I'm of the view that you can have both good and bad trolls. That a troll can create a good troll thread on a forum. Do you have a problem with someone having an objective view of what a troll is? Because that's what I'm trying to do. You seem to be taking issue with this objective stance I'm taking and wrapping it up as being an apologist for trolls in general and feeling guilty about something. Okay thanks for explaining. No I don't have an issue with an objective view of a Troll, there are many sides to this debate as we have all seen from some of the posts.

Nonek thanks for responding to all my questions, I can appreciate the fact that it must have been a little annoying but I sometimes think its a better way to get to a final point so you understand the context of where someone is coming from. In South Africa there is a racist word to describe black people that begins with the letter "K" ( I don't need to say the word). This word is completely unacceptable to use and people in the public limelight who have used the word have been fired, that's how serious it is. This word is derogatory and very offensive and hurtful to black people and others as it represents the days of Apartheid where black people were marginalised and discriminated against. But its just a word and yet that single word symbolizes something much more. Do you think the millions of black people in South Africa need to have thicker skin around what this word represents for them? So the usage of that word is never acceptable under any circumstances because of our history. Now you have admitted that there are certain words on certain forums that should not be used and I have given you an example of another word that should never be used. Its that same logic that highlights the point that just because its the Internet and a forum discussion it doesn't mean that there should be no responsibility on people to not use those words or say certain things. Its starts with you and how you say things and it starts with you and what you are prepared to accept when you engage in discussion On RPGCodex around the post that "PoE wouldn' have Romance " I read some of the comments. Some people made comments like " well if they have Romance then I want the option to be able to rape someone". Of course they were being sarcastic but the fact that they are so indifferent about a serious problem that faces society tells me that some of the members really think that this type of humour is acceptable and the worst part of it is that the website and the moderators seem fine with this type of debate All I ask is that people have some empathy around bigotry and discrimination. Its real and does upset and impact thousand of people on a daily basis. And we also need to realize that there are certain boundaries that on public forum that we should never cross. Even if you feel if doesn't effect you personally that doesn't mean it isn't a serious issue for others

Everyone does that, of course, but I think that this in particular runs into the basic free speech argument. I don't have the right to tell people not to offend me and say only stuff I find acceptable, and because that's a reciprocal right they also don't have the right to demand that I not offend them and only say stuff they find acceptable. Considering the sort of stuff people as individuals and collectives find objectionable there'd be very little to talk about if that were not the case. Take the hypothetical situation of there being someone who posts lots of stuff I find offensive. I'm not exactly sure what, since I struggle to think of anything I'd find actually offensive that isn't actually illegal or bannable already, even somewhere like the codex. But anyway, it'd be tough noogies to me. I'd reserve the right to disagree, even strenuously disagree. What I wouldn't reserve is the right to tell them they cannot state their opinion simply because I don't like it. Zor do you consider yourself a Troll?

Considering you haven't shown what definition you're using in this thread, it's a little disingenuous to cite a definition and not share it with the people in this thread. Where did anyone say "why can't you just believe for a moment that there is good trolling?" I did a quick search through this thread and couldn't find who said that. Also, who has said you should have faith that good trolling exists? This reeks of a straw-man tactic. Considering I've cited one example of a troll thread on the WoW forums, do you accept there is good trolling? Hiro do you consider yourself a Troll? The reason I ask is because you seem very defensive around the characterisation of what a Troll means...its almost like you feel guilty about something......

Lets not be silly now, in Medieval times women were married off from the age of 13-16 and she was older than that The fact that she is emotionally immature doesn't change the fact she would have been perfectly acceptable marriage or Romance material "Would have been" is the key phrase there. No one played DA2 in medieval Europe, and no one will play PoE in medieval Europe either. It's fine to write a romance that makes players uncomfortable because the object of romance seems immature, fragile, or naive--certainly I always felt this way with Merrill--but to say that everyone should just be cool because that kind of thing was totally all right during the medieval period is nonsense. Also I didn't explain my point properly about RPG being set in Medieval ages so once again you guys missed my point ( you need to realize anything I say is true so you need to learn to decipher what I say if its in any way equivocal ) I meant that fantasy RPG are generally set in a world in the same type of social development that is equivalent to Medieval ages. So in other words superstitions reign, there is very little knowledge of true science and people died very young. And women got married from the ages of 13-16 due to low life expectancy. If you have an issue with that I suggest you build a time machine and go back in time to change how society operated, once you do that I'll gladly agree with you....but until then I simply can't I understand that the world used to work that way--though the early age of marriage was actually much more of an upper-class phenomenon than a society-wide sort of thing. And to depict that in-game is fine. But we gamers now have an entirely different cultural context, as do the people who design the games. So as much as we might want to get into that medieval-esque mindset, it's impossible not to interpret things like romantically engaging with an underage character through our modern lens. And since designers come from that same cultural context, that's where the weirdness sets in. That's a valid point and I completely agree. In other words developers are allowed to use artistic interpretation around certain topics as we do have a certain expectation of how things in our modern age should be presented . Another consideration is that I am liberal who takes issues of social justice seriously. So in the Medieval ages women had very few rights and were often mistreated, if they made a game where women were discriminated against in the interests of "Medieval realism" I would have a major problem with that game as I believe sexism is a social problem in many levels of our society and I would believe that type of portrayal of women would be unacceptable. So you are right and I now get what your were saying about the Merrill

Wow, that's an excellent post. Nice one

. I was laughing at the thought of Feargus or someone else asking him to write them and his subsequent reaction to the request. Imagine if Obsidian decides " that on further reflection they are going to implement Romance due to fact that the majority of fans feel they add a deep level of party interaction and a RPG without Romance would be lacking something " My ...how I would chuckle

Lets not be silly now, in Medieval times women were married off from the age of 13-16 and she was older than that The fact that she is emotionally immature doesn't change the fact she would have been perfectly acceptable marriage or Romance material "Would have been" is the key phrase there. No one played DA2 in medieval Europe, and no one will play PoE in medieval Europe either. It's fine to write a romance that makes players uncomfortable because the object of romance seems immature, fragile, or naive--certainly I always felt this way with Merrill--but to say that everyone should just be cool because that kind of thing was totally all right during the medieval period is nonsense. Tajerio you mustn't misunderstand me. I never Romanced Merrill, I only had eyes for the beautiful Isabella Also I didn't explain my point properly about RPG being set in Medieval ages so once again you guys missed my point ( you need to realize anything I say is true so you need to learn to decipher what I say if its in any way equivocal ) I meant that fantasy RPG are generally set in a world in the same type of social development that is equivalent to Medieval ages. So in other words superstitions reign, there is very little knowledge of true science and people died very young. And women got married from the ages of 13-16 due to low life expectancy. If you have an issue with that I suggest you build a time machine and go back in time to change how society operated, once you do that I'll gladly agree with you....but until then I simply can't

Please try to move past Stage 1 in the grieving process (denial) and go directly to Stage 5 - acceptance. It's the healthy thing to do. I don't think we ready for stage 5 yet, I would say we are cautiously making our way through stage 3. These things can't be rushed and there are several emotional levels that need to be considered Besides who would the target for all the gratuitous gloating that you anti-romance people enjoy...imagine how bored you would be if you couldn't keep raising the point that there won't be Romance in PoE So, you're still in the 'bargaining' stage? We'll all be here for you, Bruce, for the stage 4 depression. Actually, I've said before during the Kickstarter that I don't have a problem with BG2 level of romance. They were easily ignored if you wished, but you still got a lot of interaction with the party members regardless. I guess that makes me a woman without a country, neither promancer nor total antimancer. Anyway, it's dead, Jim, it's dead. I'll be thinking of you during your time of grief. (Did anyone else LOL at the thought of MCA writing a "shotgun wedding" or "farmer's daughter" romance? ) Yeah I was more than happy with the BG2 implementation of Romance. That would satisfy most promancers I'm sure

I had a friends farewell dinner tonight, he is going to the UAE for 4 years on a really lucrative contract for a bank. We had a few drinks and some good food

Lets not be silly now, in Medieval times women were married off from the age of 13-16 and she was older than that The fact that she is emotionally immature doesn't change the fact she would have been perfectly acceptable marriage or Romance material

Link?For science, of course.... http://www.gibberlings3.net/readmes/Readme-RE.txt That Mod looks like a very comprehensive and enhanced version for additional Romance options, its a pity I missed it when I played BG2

a Please try to move past Stage 1 in the grieving process (denial) and go directly to Stage 5 - acceptance. It's the healthy thing to do. I don't think we ready for stage 5 yet, I would say we are cautiously making our way through stage 3. These things can't be rushed and there are several emotional levels that need to be considered Besides who would the target for all the gratuitous gloating that you anti-romance people enjoy...imagine how bored you would be if you couldn't keep raising the point that there won't be Romance in PoE

Valid response and I agree. Now we reach an interesting question. Is it fair to say that you acknowledge that certain comments and words on the Internet can be unacceptable and the person who makes those comments could or should be banned from a particular forum? But obviously you would have to look at what type of forum the comments were made?

Excellent answer and what is the reason you would report him as you have made it clear that you wouldn't report someone on RPGCodex. Please give as much detail as possible?

Excellent, thanks for responding. I am trying to understand your perspective so please work with me as I have few more questions before I get to my final point I know you have children, I don't know if you have a daughter. But lets say hypothetically you have a daughter and she's 11 or 12 and is active on a website for people her age. Its very innocent and they discuss things that girls her age do. One day someone on that forum makes a post " My Ideal Birthday Present" and all the girls start discussing and chatting about there perfect present. She even calls you over to give you some hints for her b-day with comments like "daddy look what this girl is getting...hint ..hint ". Its really good fun and very sweet. Someone, with a nickname like "danthedashing", then makes a comment that's say " I know what all you girls really want for Christmas, you want to get raped" ...but he then says " just joking, I'm just Trolling" and puts a big smile at the end Your daughter is obviously upset and comes to you. How would you deal with it? This website does have Moderators and posts can be reported