BruceVC

There are finite resources, and the game wasn't pitched as a romance/interaction simulator. I believe Brian already pointed out the fallacy of the "romance would be easy/cheap to implement!" argument several pages back. Most of the people advocating for its inclusion seem to have no idea what finite resources and a tight planning schedule dictate in a project. OE has made a series of promises to the community about PoE, and romance was not one of them and more than that, has been categorically rejected from inclusion. You can have all the opinions you want, but poorly informed opinions don't advance the conversation. There isn't going to be romance, there aren't the resources for it, and the game won't suffer for it (i'd argue it'll benefit from the exclusion, actually). If you really want a romance intensive game experience.. Sex if You Win, Sex if You Lose Okay I hear you about the limited resources. So what if we drop the option for choice around races and different classes so the Devs can include Romance? That should give them ample resources? Problem solved

I wish it was funny but its not. This is always the beginning of these types of draconian laws, first you legalize hate for a particular minority group. Then you mark or identify who the members of this group are. This empowers people to commit hate crimes against the targeted group without fear of persecution. Then you'll see systematic murders of activists and of the people who are being discriminated against Its the same modus operandi that the Nazi's used against the Jews

Westlings! In Central African Republic in present time genocide happened, people kill and eat each other - everything is ok, West don't worry. http://www.elconfidencial.com/mundo/2014-02-12/somos-ya-inmunes-a-los-genocidios-las-matanzas-en-la-republica-centroafricana_88136/ Uganda restrict holy gayness, few gays begin cry - it's terrible crime, West outraged! Guys, all this gay rights activism looks idiotic, people on Earth have more serious problems, but your "democratic" governments avoid solve them, they imitate solving of imaginary problems instead. Nah, its not that the West doesn't care about Cannibalism. But in the example you mentioned the people were only eating Russians, so there was no need to make a big deal about it

It is broadly supported. But what has that got to do with morality of putting people in jail for consensual sex? In Rwanda the majority of people also supported the genocide and in Cambodia the Khmer Rouge also had popular support. I believe that the retort to that would be that morality is subjective, and that humans don't have any inherent rights. Of course, I don't believe that, but no one is asking me to make laws. It is a oxymoron in some ways. If you truly believe in a specific morality you feel compelled to enforce it, even tough forcing ones beliefs and values on someone can in itself be inherently immoral. In other words, everyone is self-righteous. Everyone. No exceptions. I want to ask you a very important question, do you personally think its right to put someone in jail for life for having consensual same sex?

Stop with the straw-man tactics Bruce. Of course I have an interest in the homophobic laws in Uganda. It's why I was following this thread. Also, how do you know I have never shown any interest in any social justice issues that you've raised? Do I have to reply to a thread to show I show an interest? Is not reading a thread enough? Just because I haven't responded to a thread doesn't mean I'm not taking an interest in it. Also, I don't know what your hang up is with RPGCodex. It seems you bring this up on every thread (exaggeration I know but it seems to becoming the norm). I'm not a member of that forum and I don't need to bring up the Codex or other forums to know that there's some lunatics on the internet. If the Codex is the worse you've seen, then you must live a sheltered life which can be a good thing. You're not subjected to stuff that you aren't comfortable to see. Again, that may be a good thing for you. Because there's some really horrible stuff out there and you haven't even scratched the surface. That's what the internet is or what it seems to be. A free for all - good and bad. And I clearly said what I said about your comments. Also, you're being very evasive and still NOT refuted the news article I linked. How about being honest and state the facts instead of dancing around the issue. Is it some sort of national pride, that you take issue with people highlighting bad stuff with South Africa, like stuff that happens in the news link I quoted? Because I've noticed a trend with you highlighting the good stuff in South Africa but always getting defensive and downplaying the bad things that happen there. Oh no, it's not common at all... Seriously? I wonder if this sort of stuff in South Africa is happening in Uganda. One can only hope it's not. Okay I apologize if I seemed rude or dismissive. I really didn't think you cared about these types of social issues and it seems your post was rather aimed at trying to catch me out than the real issue at hand. I also got annoyed when it seemed that you were suggesting I don't take the issue of corrective rape seriously Corrective rape happens in South Africa, the article is correct. I never said it doesn't. I love my country but of course we face real social problems. In fact one of the main reasons for me being so concerned with bigotry and discrimination is because of the fact I live in South Africa, I have travelled extensively and worked in Africa and I have seen first hand what happens when people act on certain prejudices The article says that a rape happens in South Africa very 17 seconds and 500,000 rapes a year. Real and accurate rape statistics are hard to get but the number I base my discussions on are not as high as that http://africacheck.org/spot_check/sa-radio-stations-rape-stats-factually-incorrect/ If you take the article though as completely accurate then it says there are 10 cases of corrective rape a week which is 520 cases a year. If you calculate that as a percentage of the total rape cases this is only 1/10 of 1 % ( 520/500000 * 100) of the total number of rapes committed in South Africa. That's why I said its not common, I was referring to the overall rape statistics But I don't want to distract people from the crime and seriousness of corrective rape. Its a terrible outcome of the extreme actions of people who are homophobic and sexist and people living in South Africa think it is reprehensible.

n It takes a great deal of self-righteousness and/or hubris to call for sanctions on any nation over anything. 'Aid' from the west is generally really just bribes and funding of the west's agenda's and interests. Uganda would do well if it could to not accept any outside 'aid', just about any nation would. Of course leaders of such nations would likely find themselves facing opposition funded by the west if such opposition could be found, which it usually can. Africa fails to achieve it's true potential because outside interests keep it in the dark ages to further their own interests, in particular European interests, though Asia and the U.S. also have their hands dirty there. Hubris. Self-righteousness. Wow those are big words to describe something that is regularly implemented against countries when they make decisions that are unacceptable to many countries in the world. Uganda already gets aid, 20 % of its budget is outside aid, and Uganda as every country does is reliant on international investment in order to grow there economy. And when you say "because outside interests keep it in the dark ages to further their own interests" you sound like Robert Mugabe trying to justify why his economic polices have destroyed the Zimbabwean economy. You don't know much about how certain countries in Africa operate or how there governments manage there economies do you? Hardly big words. Regularly implemented yes. It's the norm for sure. It's one of the prime tools of the neo-colonialists of the last half+ century. That does not make it right or any less self righteous or audacious, or at the higher echelons of the decision making often downright evil. As far as Mugabe and Zimbabwe, while I certainly don't agree with Mugabe on many things, he's right if he's ever said something along the lines of what I did. His nation's economy is in shambles largely due to U.S., U.K., et al intervention in the form of sanctions and other punishments, which is downright disgusting at best. How dare Mugabe leave the Commonwealth! I know African geopolitics pretty well, and how the strings are pulled there and elsewhere subtly and overtly quite well as well. You certainly have no monopoly on knowledge of Africa just because you happen to live in South Africa, while most of the rest of us on this board do not. For better or worse Uganda should be left alone to make it's own laws. Rather than get bent out of shape about their violations of real or perceived rights, look in your own backyard. Many folks in many nations (including my own) would do better to do so than worry about internal laws of Uganda which are by and large benign on the world stage. There are worse and more oppressive laws of a variety of different types on the books in both the U.S., South Africa, and most if not all other 'western' nations than what folks are decrying currently in Uganda. And it's possibly the very efforts of some of the organizations that are leading the charge in decrying Uganda's policy that influenced it's implementing. There certainly has been some backlash in places other than Uganda to the global steamrolled agenda known as LGBT rights. Firstly I am an afro-optimist, but I am also a pragmatist about the political and economic challenger's that face the continent. I also didn't say "I'm only the informed person on these forums because I live in Africa". I am saying you aren't very informed if you think the reason that Africa is on the state its in is because of Western countries and Neo-Colonialism ( what does that even mean in the context of issues that Africa faces) Give me some examples of where "Neo-Colonialism " is relevant in Africa today and is the reason that certain African countries haven't achieved there full potential. That term is thrown around whenever people want to deflect attention from addressing the systemic problems that exist in certain African countries because some leaders in Africa love hating the West and blaming there own failures on imperialism and "Neo-Colonialism" Certain Western and Eastern corporations have played there part in negatively impacting the economies of African countries, I know that. But the primary reason for the failure of Africa to achieve its full potential are reasons like corruption, lack of good governance, 30 year dictatorship, lack of education, lack of economic transformation and failure to uplift the lives of there people when the leaders of some countries live in the lap of luxury. Finally I love Africa and I absolutely believe it can achieve great economic heights. But I am also not a denialist who refuses to acknowledge where the real issues that face transformation are. And I can promise you that integrity of Western and Eastern corporations that invest in Africa are a small part of the problem.

First. can you tidy up your post please? You've been asked before to avoid mutli-quoting as it becomes a mess when you're quoting multiple posts within multiple posts. I'm not trying to find an oblique point at all. I was responding to your downplaying of AGX-17's post. I didn't even see that part of AGX-17's post until you quoted him and tried to downplay what was happening in South Africa. AGX-17 made an offhand comment, you've also taken it off topic and I'm responding to your posts. Also, just because I have never heard of a term before and go and do some research doesn't have anything to do with lack of credibility or lack of knowledge on the subject. In the last hour or so, I did some reading up on various sites and studies that have been quoted, to get different accounts of what it is. Also you say it's not common? Everywhere I've read (news reports, studies, etc) state the opposite. You say the perpetrators are brought to justice when they are caught. I guess the operative word here is 'when' because it seems according to a lot of reports and studies, most are never caught due to various (sometimes eyebrow raising) reasons. You attack me about credibility and lack of knowledge (an ad hominem attack) but don't refute the news article. There seems to be an issue with lack of credibility Bruce, and it's not me. So you have no interest in discussing the homophobic laws in Uganda but now want to the debate the fact I seemed dismissive of Agx's post. That's fine lets do that . I am also glad you are so interested in the scourge of corrective rape in South Africa. You have never really shown any interest when I raised issues of social justice before or what are some of the consequences of bigotry. I can only assume this will translate to you supporting me when I raise awareness that people who make rape jokes on forums need to be condemned. So its good to have you aboard. Any raised awareness around rape is good for us dealing with this serious problem So what exactly do you want to discuss about my comment, is the fact I said that corrective rape isn't common or the fact I said its illegal? Or is it fact I said that corrective rape is considered an abhorrent behavior perpetuated by people who are ignorant and homophobic? You say I downplayed his comment, in what way do you feel I downplayed his comment because that's seems to be your concern?

I'd never heard the term before. After doing a google search and from news reports, it doesn't seem to be uncommon. Quite the opposite. I'm not sure why you're downplaying this. I'm appalled by just reading one story that was reported last month and this practice continues in South Africa. I'd never heard the term before. After doing a google search and from news reports, it doesn't seem to be uncommon. Quite the opposite. I'm not sure why you're downplaying this. I'm appalled by just reading one story that was reported last month and this practice continues in South Africa. I'm not sure where you are going with this, you are trying to make a oblique point and find a connection with what is happening in Uganda that doesn't exist. The fact that you had never heard of corrective rape before highlights your lack credibility or knowledge in this topic But if you had read some of my comments in the past around discrimination you would have been aware of corrective rape as I raised it before as an example of what happens when people are allowed to act on bigotry. Also corrective rape is not legal in South Africa, it is a hate crime and comes from ignorance and homophobia. There is absolutely no correlation between the homophobic law that has been passed in Uganda and the fact that corrective rape is perpetuated in South Africa What are you trying to say?

The fact that you're even entertaining the idea that the masses of Africa are friendly to the concept of homosexuality would be laughable if it weren't so sad. Africa is as backwards as continents get. This is a landmass where people are still regularly burned alive for witchcraft. In Africa's most westernized/"civilized" country, South Africa, "corrective rape" of lesbians is commonplace. A correction there Agx as you've raised this before. Corrective rape happens but it is unequivocally condemned and the perpetrators of this heinous act of ignorance and bigotry prosecuted when they are caught. And to be fair its not common

Okay this must be one of the first times I am completely agreeing with you..I am a lttle stunned. But good and valid point

I have another question, do you guys think in the interest of the most effective way of burning Calories that it's better to train first thing in the morning, before you eat, or in the early evening before supper ? Or does it make no difference. I have heard conflicting views on this one

I like your logic and I support your view indubitably

Because these people would rather have crappy romances than no romances at all. I was going to write up a giant post about this, and about how this very mindset of adopting and accepting low standards is a cancer on the entire industry, but I found myself no longer caring about this beat-up dead horse. Now you are discriminating against dead horses, please don't do that and please find it in yourself to care. Dead horses have feelings to

Valid point, I suppose that's the best way to address this decision by the Ugandan government.

It takes a great deal of self-righteousness and/or hubris to call for sanctions on any nation over anything. 'Aid' from the west is generally really just bribes and funding of the west's agenda's and interests. Uganda would do well if it could to not accept any outside 'aid', just about any nation would. Of course leaders of such nations would likely find themselves facing opposition funded by the west if such opposition could be found, which it usually can. Africa fails to achieve it's true potential because outside interests keep it in the dark ages to further their own interests, in particular European interests, though Asia and the U.S. also have their hands dirty there. Hubris. Self-righteousness. Wow those are big words to describe something that is regularly implemented against countries when they make decisions that are unacceptable to many countries in the world. Uganda already gets aid, 20 % of its budget is outside aid, and Uganda as every country does is reliant on international investment in order to grow there economy. And when you say "because outside interests keep it in the dark ages to further their own interests" you sound like Robert Mugabe trying to justify why his economic polices have destroyed the Zimbabwean economy. You don't know much about how certain countries in Africa operate or how there governments manage there economies do you?

That's a good link, its a little frustrating but I understand what the author is getting at. He says if the West wants to enforce punitive economic measures on Uganda there will be a violent backlash against the LBGT community as they will get blamed. That does makes sense so he wants the current Western corporations invested in Uganda to educate the Ugandan people that the homosexuality always existed in Uganda and wasn't something that the West brought into the country with there liberal lifestyle choices. Okay but I question if this will make any difference as once people are fixated on hating a particular minority group its takes a paradigm shift to change it. But end of the day I have to support what's best for the LBGT community in Uganda, so as much as it pains me to accept it maybe there should no sanctions or measures against Uganda from the West

Let us know what you think

I often read your updates on games which are objective and detailed so if you play the Demo that would suffice for some relevant insight into this KS

It looks good but I'll wait for others, like Keyrock or Indira, who have a better knowledge of all things game related to comment before I decide to pledge

I also doubt that Monte was born on D-Day. Shocking, isn't it? How could I possibly trust anything he says anymore oh wait it's a joke. What I don't understand about the promance point of view here is this: Josh said that the PoE team had come to the conclusion that they didn't think they could do romances up to the standard they demand of themselves. So why don't the promancers trust the devs' own assessment of their abilities and resources? Hah! I'm not north american nor european, so D-Day isn't nearly as significant to me, hence why I didn't notice the date. The drunk part does ring true, though . Don't take Monte too seriously, his good outweighs his bad. I know the first time you experience his posting style it can be a little frustrating( I felt the same ) but if you stay active on the forums you'll see he can very articulate and humorous

I see nothing wrong with setting up such a trap using others words Bruce it's a nice tactic in any good argument if successful, however it's not that I dismiss the importance of words but that I see them as too important to constrain in any way, that is why I hold free speech and dialogue to be so important. They should not be held back by such things as offensiveness or hurtfulness, which are entirely subjective and often extremely wrong. Alright, I can't lie... I'm feeling guilty I did try to trap you but it failed. But if it had succeeded it would have been a grand moment

Funny enough South Africa has just granted a temporary work visa to a prominent Ugandan gay doctor who is also a gay activist so its already happening for skilled professionals, I just feel sorry for the unskilled gay Ugandans http://mg.co.za/article/2014-02-20-ugandan-activist-granted-sa-work-permit/

You right, I didn't mean to suggest full sanctions as that won't happen. But Obama has said this will sour relations and that's never a good thing for any African country. But Uganda has made its bed, now they need to lie in it. Oh and the Ugandan president is full of it

It is broadly supported. But what has that got to do with morality of putting people in jail for consensual sex? In Rwanda the majority of people also supported the genocide and in Cambodia the Khmer Rouge also had popular support. Okay, a bit of a leap to go from a law jailing people for being homosexual to two genocides. If it's widely supported, then beating them with the stick might not help reverse their decision, sadly. Never underestimate the impact of sanctions, it played a major part in ending Apartheid

Please re-read Animal Farm. The formerly oppressed are entirely capable of turning to oppression. And now, of course, we have Putin the new world champion of 'Traditional Values.' stalking the world stage like a 'B' Movie villain, giving credence to the ignorant. Good point around Animal Farm and another thing that really frustrates me is some of these African countries have these corrupt governments that squander the resources and the majority of people live in extreme poverty. But the blame for there situation often falls on Western countries and Colonialism. And yet when they get the chance to focus on economic reform what do they do...they pass a law to discriminate against a minority group. And because the average citizen of the country is ignorant and the AU is utterly impotent they get away with it