BruceVC

I had a really good date last night, there is this girl I've been trying to see for ages and we went for dinner at a nice Sushi restaurant. She use to have a problem with drugs and has been clean for 45 days so she doesn't drink alcohol but that didn't effect the conversation or mood. It was great to see her again and will definitely be seeing her again

It is insulting to both men and women, anyone who thinks for themselves really. I know more than a few women who are insulted and disgusted by modern feminism. What parts are they disgusted with exactly ?

I know you know thats not relevant .....but it was funny

You know what Volo, I'm going to rephrase what I said due to your post. So thanks Gender equality is NOT feminism, I was mistaken. Feminism is a route to achieve true gender equality. If you guys think that men are unequal compared to women please give me 3 examples that I'll investigate and we can campaign together on?

Gender equality is feminism and his entire post was based on this. I fail to see how you cannot think his post wasn't around a view of modern gender equality? Oh wait its suppose to be a joke....thats right I forgot. Let me know when it gets to the funny part No Bruce, feminism is supporting the advancement of one gender, gender equality is support of equality between both genders. If you honestly believe that you can achieve gender equality by focusing on the issues of one out of the two, you are a deluded nutjob. Orogun's post was neither a troll attempt or taking a **** on gender equality. Feminism : http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/feminism?q=feminism Gender Equality : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_equality Unless you can explain to me all the examples of how poor men are discriminated against in society and are not really seen as equal to women I reject your definition. We don't have campaigns about " equality for men" because basically the issue doesn't exist for men. But please do tell me how hard your life has been being a man and what you demand changes so you are equal to women ...I really want to hear this one

Do I think that girls are treated differently than boys at the macro-societal level? Yes. We have studies that indicate subtle factors in education (some even mentioned in the BanBossy material) can lead girls away from achievement in areas of math and science.1 Do I think there is value in discouraging bossy behavior in children? Yes. There's a real tendency in modern thought to feel that negative reinforcement is valueless and I'm not convinced it is. Bossy behavior should be discouraged - boy or girl. Note I disagree with the precept of the BanBossy campaign that the same action in a boy called "leadership" is called "bossy" in a girl. "Bossy" is a very specific set of negative behaviors and if people are using the word incorrectly it is not the fault of the word (again, treating the symptom - missuse of a word - rather than treating the reason why people might be misusing that word or even attempting to spread understanding about the word, its meaning and how that relates to negative behaviors we don't want to encourage and to positive behaviors we very much want to encourage). Studies over the years have shown that as boys and girls develop, girls develop verbal ability much quicker than boys. This will lead to a tendency for girls to interact with their social world through words more so than boys (which is why boys will demonstrate more physical aggression while girls will demonstrate more relational aggression, typically). This is, probably, the reason why there is a perception of girls being labeled as "bossy" more than boys (as boys will be trying to assert their will over their peers through their physicality, not having the verbal acuity to attempt imposing their will through verbal methods).2 Ideally, though, I think we'd want to discourage both forms of aggression and channel those efforts towards something constructive. Having said that, plenty of boys will be bossy during their development (just likely hitting it at a later stage of development) and if we feel that this attitude/action set is to be discouraged than we need to be able to "call it out", otherwise we'll either be transferring the bossy label to another word (as the negative traits would still need to be distinguished) or encouraging the behavior to continue (if we drop any concept of the "bossy" traits being negative for fear of discouraging "leadership"). Which gets back to the campaign; if the campaign is really about encouraging girls to be leaders and/or to not be discouraged from pursuing being positively assertive I'd argue they'd be better off campaigning positively than negatively (and while I'm sure they think they're being a positive campaign, I see any campaign that stacks itself against3 something to be inherently negative). If the goal of the campaign is to establish that women have fine leadership skills that can be nurtured and grown - which I think it is - I think they're going about it entirely the wrong way. Because what people are going to take away from the campaign isn't going to be the positive message they're trying to deliver but the negative one they are delivering (even if it is unintentionally, as I think it is). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1There's also a devaluing of education as important - somehow - in high school that leads boys away from education which is why our college populations in many schools are overwhelmingly female - outside of the STEM majors. Sometime in the 1980s women overtook men in higher education. The question we in higher education face is "how do we encourage men to pursue college degrees" and "how do we encourage women to consider STEM majors as viable options for them". Anecdotally, I can't tell you the number of times that I've talked to a young woman who has shifted away from a medical/pharmacological/dental major to "nursing" either because of factors OTHER than the challenge of the coursework. And similarly men who place no value on education, soon to drop out because making money now if more important than making more money years from now. 2Note though that while I agree that boys and girls learn differently and learn at different rates, I do reject the notion that men or women taken as enormous groups (as opposed to individual vs individual) can't compete equally in education - unless there are some other cognitive factors at play (like dyscalculia). Experience teaches us otherwise. The problem in the educational system is that, honestly, it tends to be "one size fits all" which IMO is a terrible way to operate if your goal is to identify individual talent, skill and/or proclivity. 3Unfortunately society has embraced the idea that if you're not against something you are for nothing. So its not surprising that the "net meme" summation of the campaign is negative - #BanBossy Thats an excellent, thoughtful and relevant post. Nice one. You have positioned the debate in a way that is easy to understand and even though you disagree with the campaign you have given, IMO, a better solution. Let the campaign be a positive one as I agree that even though BANBOSSY is intended to be positive the perception of it is negative and that means the message is wasted. I learnt a very insightful view today about an important topic, thanks

Gender equality is feminism and his entire post was based on this. I fail to see how you cannot think his post wasn't around a view of modern gender equality? Oh wait its suppose to be a joke....thats right I forgot. Let me know when it gets to the funny part

I'm really not sure how trustworthy poll results would be in regards to this kind of thing. Each fan-base has something called a "vocal minority" -- a small group of people who make a big fuss about their tastes and opinions, and often end up looking like they represent the overall opinion of the larger audience when in fact they don't. For BioWare, the fans who like romances are obviously such a vocal minority. In fact, I expect that most people who play their games will either roll their eyes, chuckle (heheheh boobs!) or just skip and ignore any romance sub-plot they come across. But the moment you slap "Advanced Integrated Romance System!" on the box as one of the game's main features, you'll lose a large chunk of those people as customers. Because it's just not what they want out of the game. Because they have always been optional... So people can just ignore them if they're not interested in them. Making them an integral part of the game on the same level as race, class and skill selection would make them mandatory which, trust me, a lot of people would not like. Okay but do you honesty think people wouldn't buy a major RPG just because there was mandatory but well written Romance? Are people that opposed to the idea of Romance which would only be a small part of the RPG experience anyway? In a word, yes. In more words, it doesn't matter how well a romance is written, it's impossible to make a character that appeals to everyone. A mandatory romance assumes everyone will react the same way to a given character, which is nothing but pure folly. I have quit games outright after being presented by an unpalatable forced decision or characterisation. With foreknowledge I would not have purchased the game at all, but it's hard to discover the nature of said events without spoiling the game. Foreknowledge that romances are mandatory, on the other hand, will be easy, and consign the game to the do-not-play list. P.S. Oh god, imagine ME2 had a forced Miranda romance. That's the worst example I can think of, of a case where the developers completely misanticipated the player reaction to their headline character. Okay you guys have made a good argument, my objective would never be to make something in a RPG that causes people specifically not to purchase it. So integrated/mandatory Romance is maybe not such a prudent suggestion

Okay but do you honesty think people wouldn't buy a major RPG just because there was mandatory but well written Romance? Are people that opposed to the idea of Romance which would only be a small part of the RPG experience anyway?

Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it. (Successful troll attempt though, since reading it literally pissed me off! \o/) Heh, why is that a 'troll attempt' and not just his opinion ? And really, there are feminists out there that believe that stuff (not a large amount, but for some reason, like everywhere else, the yahoos are the ones broadcasting) If its not a Troll attempt then it demonstrates a completely dismissive and exaggerated view of the issue of gender equality and is equally annoying.

That's all very nice, but he did make some pretty solid counterpoints to your suggestion... Especially regarding this part of it: Because, really, making something that is traditionally optional, and not necessarily all that well liked by everyone in your target audience, mandatory is a very effective way of swiftly losing a large chunk of that audience. In fact, your entire suggestion seems based around the assumption that most people will simply be OK with having romance forced on them as an integral part of the game, which is completely unrealistic. You've made some good points, there have been several polls that highlighted that the majority of fans want some form of well written Romance. If Romance was integrated into the RPG then there would only be a minority of people opposed to them. So I don't see this as a major issue. Besides I have never heard anyone say " I won't play game xx because of Romance". People seem to not want to play certain RPG for other reasons?

You haven't watched the videos I linked earlier have you? No I haven't, I don't think videos carry that much credibility. I prefer links with references like that link you provided about effectiveness of sanctions against South Africa

Well, I suppose one way to end a debate is to make something mandatory. It's also a way to stop people buying your product. Bruce you are as mad as a box of frogs. On LSD. So if I don't like mustard on my sandwich, my views on mustard would be void if all sandwiches came with mustard? Can't you see how delightfully deluded you are in your desperation? As ever, your arguments turn on compulsion, which is why you'd have made a great Khmer Rouge re-education officer. "They would have to do this. You'd get judged on it." In your dotty world-view everyone would love stuff if only they were MADE TO DO IT. No, we really don't. Huh? It might improve yours, Bruce. But you, as I have established beyond doubt, are mad. Please look again at my mustard analogy. Monte please bugger off !!! I'm just joking Monte, I don't mean that at all Unlike you I don't feel the need to tell people that they shouldn't comment on certain topics just because they annoy me or I disagree with them I would rather ignore a person or debate what they are saying. I see telling someone to "bugger off" as a form of censorship and betrayal of the principle of free speech which I support unless the words the person uses are words of discrimination or bigotry.

I know Gromnir didn't think that it was a valid suggestion but integrated Romance would be one irrefutable way to end this debate around the "role of Romance in RPG". I would support it for a number of reasons. Firstly I know many people will say " but I don't like Romance, why subject me to me something I don't like". But that view wouldn't really exist if Romance was mandatory. It would be no more strange than choosing a different race, a class or a selection of spells. Secondly this would put more attention on the developers creating more meaningful Romance that would appeal to the fanbase. They would have to do this as now Romance is part of the game and whether you can complete it and they would get judged on that. Finally I think most of us agree a well written Romance does enhance the RPG experience and improve interaction in your party so logically wouldn't integrated Romance improve the overall entertainment of your RPG journey in a particular game?

Whoa, whoa...what? I'm pretty sure *anyone* can have problems of the sort that you just mentioned, regardless of gender...myself as an example who is also a guy who has felt pretty directionless and not very confident since the day I was born... (e: your post after this sounds less extreme than what I quoted, where you just said there are generally NO cases where a guy could have problems of this sort...so I'll forgive you, Bruce, so long as you don't go to such extremes again, . That's not to say I necessarily agree, but again, as always, I try to maintain a position of neutrality, because really, I just can't say I know one way or another...so I don't disagree either. ) @Valsuelm: no problem. Barti, neutrality is fine and yes I agree that young boys can have confidence problems and also not apply for certain jobs because of it. But I doubt the main reason for this lack of confidence is due to them believing it's because of there gender and the result of this is they believe they won't get a certain job or be able to have a certain role in society

I have no idea whether that's true or not. I don't know how you can measure 'confidence' and I don't think it's confidence that's the entire problem. There's more to it. What you've described is a stereotype and can equally apply to a lot of males in that example. I think you may be confusing 'confidence' with applicants and 'prejudice' from employers which may be a reason why a female didn't get the job - but that is also a stereotype too. Either I'm not explaining my point properly or you are not understanding it. I'll try one more time. The issue is not that Fortune 500 companies don't hire enough females or promote females to leadership positions ( though this is a problem but not the purpose of this debate) the issue is some young girls when they want to be assertive are called "bossy" and this is a negative description that impacts how they feel about themselves. The result of this is these young girls when they become adults don't apply for certain jobs to try to do certain things in life because they have belief from there youth that they won't get them purely because they are female Its not necessarily prejudice from the company or the big corporation but the fact they lack confidence or they have been raised a certain way and have a perception around there role in society This for me is the most important point of the website and not the banning of the word "bossy"

What does that even mean. Achieve their full potential? I imagine not many people get to achieve their full potential in life, regardless if they're male or female. Okay let me explain it better because I see how that could be confusing. I'll give you a practical example, because the confidence of young girls is diminished through various reasons they aren't as likely as young boys to apply for certain jobs or think they could become a CEO of a fortune 500 company. This doesn't mean they would necessarily get the job if they applied, But they don't even think they have a chance. Yet men are more likely to apply for a particular job and not think they won't get the job because inherently this is a job that only a particular gender can do. I hope I have explained this properly

I don't know Malc, why don't you go to the website and confirm this? They do make some general comments like " young girls self-esteem drops 3.5 times more than a boys by high school" but it would be very difficult to give accurate statistics

Maybe they should have used the 'ban bossy' message as being something attributed to both boys and girls. Like don't be bossy, be a leader to both genders. That would have been a better message. And not single out one gender as being bossy (girls) and comparing it to leadership with another (boys) when they say the exact same thing. The fact is that they don't actually give an example of that same exact thing. It's deceptive hyperbole. But then I guess it would come across as another type of anti-bullying encouragement building site and drown in the hundreds of other anti-bullying encouragement building websites if it was aimed at both genders. Easier to aim it at one gender and get the emotional responses that it's received. I hear you but the reality is that generally there aren't any cases where young boys grow up thinking they don't have the ability to achieve there full potential. There is much more encouragement for young boys to become leaders of industry for example. So the campaign is aimed at young girls as this is where the confidence problem lies for a variety of reasons

Barti certain people say they are getting upset because they think this is a campaign to curtail there free speech and its ineffective. But the real reason is that they are tired of getting reminded about issues around gender inequality. But there wouldn't be all this awareness if there wasn't still a problem. Thats the way I see it But to be honest if someone of your generation can at least recognize that there aren't enough examples of people saying things about women like "she is a good leader" thats a positive step. And the objective of these types of campaigns is ultimately to raise awareness. So this is a victory even though it may seem like a minor statement from you

Honestly for me the purpose of the campaign is not about banning the actual word "bossy". Its about encouraging young girls to be confident and to be able to achieve anything in life. But the way the website is marketed and designed this message is misunderstood, all people see is that the website is suggesting " we ban the word bossy" and somehow that is going help with gender equality. I am normally happy to debate these types of issues by myself and I was prepared to explain this over and over again but when Hurlshot also didn't get it then I realized that this type of message using this type of mechanism would never achieve its purpose. Remember also bare in mind certain people on this website will always reject and joke about any discussion around topics like gender equality, I have come to accept that and its fine. But whatever the campaign or initiative is you have to have a message that your average person understands and is prepared to support. That is why I disengaged from this discussion

Its okay thanks

Mmnope, I see nothing weird about that question Yeah that seems normal to me, he's probably the dad of those of those guys that was drinking and slouching by the side of the road

Stupid question but don't you mean Chinese takeaway ?

Don't worry Squeakymeister I'm also completely dysfunctional in this type of creativity but its good fun to read all the posts